A rather rhetorical question for the "Hell is FOREVER" crowd

[Grailhunter]

So @Grailhunter and @ScottA What methods do you believe God uses to torture his children?

Back to the beginning of our conversation......the Bible does not tell us much about Heaven or Hell....that does not mean they do not exist.
All we really know is unimaginable agony. The Bible, Christ, the Apostles when describing the punishment will usually speak of fire.

 

[Patrick1966]

UNSAVED men do NOT suffer eternally.

In the end, they all get fixed and are then given to God.

 

[Patrick1966]

Back to the beginning of our conversation......the Bible does not tell us much about Heaven or Hell....that does not mean they do not exist.
All we really know is unimaginable agony. The Bible, Christ, the Apostles when describing the punishment will usually speak of fire.

Heaven is where believers go when they die. They go there to enjoy Heaven and to wait for the resurrection.

Hell is where everyone goes when they die. They go there to learn what they failed to learn in life. Once refined to purity, they too go to Heaven, or so I believe.

 

[St. SteVen]

Don’t LIKE Gods Offers, Gifts, Blessings, Terms, Order and Way?
Don’t Accept it.

Simply as that?
Any consequences for not accepting the "gift"?

 

[St. SteVen]

Judging God by your morality and measure is a serious mistake. What you think is right may not be what God thinks is right but, what God thinks is right is what you should learn.

Do you believe that God holds us to a higher standard than he holds himself to?
Jesus taught us to love our enemies. You claim God will incinerate his.
What's wrong with this picture?

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:

Christian Universalism is not a new idea.

This is wrong.

Right. It was actually called apokatastasis. My bad.
Are you familiar with the early church fathers? Who...
"... grounded their Christian doctrine of apokatastasis first of all in the Bible."

The main Patristic supporters of the apokatastasis theory, such as Bardaisan, Clement, Origin, Didymus, St. Anthony, St. Pamphilus Martyr, Methodius, St. Macrina, St. Gregory of Nyssa (and probably the two other Cappadocians), St. Evagrius Ponticus, Diodore of Tarsus, Theodore of Mopsuestia, St. John of Jerusalem, Rufinus, St. Jerome and St. Augustine (at least initially) … Cassian, St. Issac of Nineveh, St. John of Dalyatha, Ps. Dionysius the Areopagite, probably St. Maximus the Confessor, up to John the Scot Eriugena, and many others, grounded their Christian doctrine of apokatastasis first of all in the Bible.
— Ramelli, Christian Doctrine, 11.

 

[Patrick1966]

Simply as that?
Any consequences for not accepting the "gift"?

We know that our faith is a gift from God. So why do our Christian brothers believe that God damns FOREVER those who weren't given the gift?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

If that's true then 1 Timothy 4:10 is untrue and so are many other verses.

It is true. He is the savior of all
Men. But not all men will receive his salvation he won’t force it on you

 

[Michiah-Imla]

How is this even a debate?

The scriptures are clear.

Those who believe are saved.

Those who do not believe damn themselves to eternal punishment.

 

[St. SteVen]

We know that our faith is a gift from God. So why do our Christian brothers believe that God damns FOREVER those who weren't given the gift?

That's a GREAT question!

 

[St. SteVen]

It is true. He is the savior of all
Men. But not all men will receive his salvation he won’t force it on you

He won't force it on you? - LOL
Right. Assuming you don't mind being incinerated. No problem.

 

[St. SteVen]

As one dies so one has an eternity.
Die as a Christian go to be with Jesus.
Die as an enemy of God spend eternal its bemoaning your loss, tormenting g yourself with, what if and if only.

Die as an enemy of God?
Jesus taught us to love our enemies.

What are you claiming that God does with His enemies?
Something less than love?
Does God hold us to a higher standard than he holds himself to?

There is No second chance.

Right.
Nothing is left to chance.

 

[Grailhunter]

Heaven is where believers go when they die. They go there to enjoy Heaven and to wait for the resurrection.

Making this clear now....you are not a liar.....but that is the kind of lie that can get you to hell and get others to Hell and when you are standing before Christ on Judgment Day He may take exception to you saying He is not a God and Hell is not eternal Hell fire because it caused others to go to Hell.....are there levels to Hell? Is the whole thing continual flames that torment you and you scream in agony for all eternity? We do not know the exact temperature of the flames or the sizzling sound it makes on you.

He may have to show you that evil does not go to heaven and you made your choice just like everyone else made their choice because free will is the rule.

 

[Grailhunter]

Do you believe that God holds us to a higher standard than he holds himself to?
Jesus taught us to love our enemies. You claim God will incinerate his.
What's wrong with this picture?

I will say it again, you trying to push your morality on God will go bad for you. Taking exception to His character will go bad for you. Preaching Christ and Apostles are liars will go bad for you......Trying to change the scriptures will go bad for you, you probably need a bigger shovel to dig that path to Hell.

In the same way, even though God has the right to show his anger and his power, he is very patient with those on whom his anger falls, who are destined for destruction. Romans 9:22-24

 

[MatthewG]

Many of you believe that our loving creator sends much of his creation to suffer horribly in Hell FOREVER. Here is my question. How many different forms of torture do you believe our loving creator uses to torture his creation?

The unfortunate misunderstanding is they only have a “part” in the lake of fire which is before the Lamb and his angels.

I see the lake of fire as an opportunity for those on the outside to know the Lord Jesus Christ going through the flames of fire.


Oh by the way I don’t know how spiritual bodies “feel” fire.

To me its as a purging of darkness, burning away the dross.

 

[Grailhunter]

St. SteVen said:

Christian Universalism is not a new idea.

Right. It was actually called apokatastasis. My bad.
Are you familiar with the early church fathers? Who...
"... grounded their Christian doctrine of apokatastasis first of all in the Bible."

The main Patristic supporters of the apokatastasis theory, such as Bardaisan, Clement, Origin, Didymus, St. Anthony, St. Pamphilus Martyr, Methodius, St. Macrina, St. Gregory of Nyssa (and probably the two other Cappadocians), St. Evagrius Ponticus, Diodore of Tarsus, Theodore of Mopsuestia, St. John of Jerusalem, Rufinus, St. Jerome and St. Augustine (at least initially) … Cassian, St. Issac of Nineveh, St. John of Dalyatha, Ps. Dionysius the Areopagite, probably St. Maximus the Confessor, up to John the Scot Eriugena, and many others, grounded their Christian doctrine of apokatastasis first of all in the Bible.
— Ramelli, Christian Doctrine, 11.

You are forgetting my education on the matter....LOL
For the readers.....
In theology, apocatastasis (/æpoʊkəˈtæstəsɪs/; occasionally spelled apokatastasis) is the restoration of creation to a condition of perfection. In Christianity, it is a form of Christian universalism that includes the ultimate salvation of everyone—including the damned in hell and the devil.

You are wrong but I have a sense of humor about such things.....prove that each person listed above supported universalism as defined above.

 

[Patrick1966]

It is true. He is the savior of all
Men. But not all men will receive his salvation he won’t force it on you

It says all men. If all men aren't saved by Jesus then the verse is untrue.

 

[Patrick1966]

The unfortunate misunderstanding is they only have a “part” in the lake of fire which is before the Lamb and his angels.

I see the lake of fire as an opportunity for those on the outside to know the Lord Jesus Christ going through the flames of fire.


Oh by the way I don’t know how spiritual bodies “feel” fire.

To me its as a purging of darkness, burning away the dross.

Amen. God is great. God loses NOBODY!

 

[Grailhunter]

Amen. God is great. God loses NOBODY!

@St. SteVen

You guys are a sad and misinformed bunch pushing lies and false beliefs.
I am glad I believe in the Truth and do not have to tap dance through the scriptures to try to twist the meaning of the Word God and deceive people.
Here is a load of truth for the readers.....not that you care....

Hebrews 6:4-8
4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. 7 For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; 8 but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.


Hebrews 10: 26-31
26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” 31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

2nd Peter 2:1-30
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves. Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned; 3 and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.

2nd Corinthians :5:10: For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Matthew 3:12 His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor and gather his wheat into the barn, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire.”

Matthew 5:22 But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire.

Matthew 5:29 If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell.

Matthew 5:30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell.

Matthew 8:12 While the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

Matthew 13:41-42 The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 13:50 And throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 18:9 And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the hell of fire.

Matthew 23:33 You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell?

Matthew 24:51 And will cut him in pieces and put him with the hypocrites. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 25:41 Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Matthew 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Mark 9:43 And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire.

Mark 9:45 And if your foot offend you, cut if off: it is better to you to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched.

Mark 9:48 where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.

Luke 3:17 His winnowing fork is in his hand, to clear his threshing floor and to gather the wheat into his barn, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire.”

Luke 12:5 But I will warn you whom to fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has authority to cast into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him!

NEXT PAGE....

 

[Grailhunter]

Luke 16:19-31 “There was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. And at his gate was laid a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man's table. Moreover, even the dogs came and licked his sores. The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.

John 5:28-29 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

2nd Thessalonians 1:8-9 In flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

Jude 1:7 Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.

Revelation 14:10 He also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.

Revelation 19:20 And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Revelation 20:12-15--- 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

Revelation 21:8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.