A Question for Jehovah's Witnesses

[face2face]

I doubt that you know what you mean. You have rejected the Christian Bible and turned to Satan.

This is all you have Jack (sadness)

 

[Jack]

This is all you have Jack (sadness)

No, I have the written Word of God that Satan has stolen from you. That's everlasting "SADNESS" in Hell fire!!

 

[face2face]

No, I have the written Word of God that Satan has stolen from you. That's everlasting "SADNESS" in Hell fire!!

same same

 

[Jack]

same same

You think God doesn't know every time you reject His Word, the Bible? He knows!

 

[face2face]

Marks, Marks, Marks...read on and tell precisely what Paul goes on to explain to Timothy in Chapter 3. What is the false accuser being revealed?

While you are reading the first section of 2 TIm 3 can you explain the word used in Verse 3; I've highlighted it for you in red.

3:3 unloving, irreconcilable, slanderers, without self-control, savage, opposed to what is good 2 Ti 3:3.

What word is this?

Be honest now!

@marks ????

 

[face2face]

God never put anyone to death, let alone Jesus. Men murdered him. Death is not God's game. He is the giver of life not the purveyor of death. Death is an enemy.

You understood my reply to this quiet? Death is the cost of God creating? The greatest cost was the sacrifice of His Son?

 

[face2face]

The first point is that a carnal mind of itself is not sin; only the mind which is given voice and action...a thought is not sin. i.e Jesus asking his Father to remove the cup of suffering him him is not a sin! It would be if he turned from God and did not go through with his death.

So if you read earlier in Romans you would see this

5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit Ro 8:5.

Jesus only set his mind on the things of the Spirit, even though he wrestled with the thoughts of the flesh (i.e carnal mind). You could say Marks his carnal mind was never activated - it was in himl it had potential but not once did he act on it.

F2F

@marks did you understand this?

 

[face2face]

Actually, the angels did something rather moving, being the first human being to be exalted to such a high position, being at the right hand side of God on High. Of course this event signified a position he did not previously hold - the enormity of such an act would have been spine tingling.

Do you know what they did Jack?

@Jack you never did go looking at what the angels did for Jesus when he ascended for the first time. Lucky for you I have a good memory !!

 

[face2face]

@ElieG12

The first question one must ask of Jane's quote in 2 Thessalonians is simple...Who is the Adversary the Apostle is referring to? We know its not some supernatural make believe creature that dwells in fire!

You see Paul uses the same language when writing to the Corinthians, in describing Jewish adversaries who had assumed apostolic powers, disguising themselves as servants of righteousness (Read 2 Co 10:2-15). When people hide their true identity and disguise one's true character they become an Adversary of the True Gospel of God.

No Supernatural Evil being here as Jane has imagined! Jane has missed the true context opting for more fanciful notions - she has actually revealed that she is the deceived one.

Here's the thing Elie, if Paul was referring to such an evil being he would provide you with a details on Who he is, How he deceives and what tools you require to overcome him - highly unlikely given Jane believes this being is so powerful it can roam around like a Lion devouring people at will LOL. It's a ludicrous belief!

Read the below words of Paul and you will see how he is dealing with this Judaistic Adversary (satan in the churches)!

2 I beg of you that when I am present I may not have to show boldness with such confidence as I count on showing against some who suspect us of walking according to the flesh. 3 For though we walk in the flesh, we are not waging war according to the flesh. 4 For the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh but have divine power to destroy strongholds. 5 We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ, 6 being ready to punish every disobedience, when your obedience is complete.

Notice how Paul is stating the nature of their warfare... is not against some make believe Supernatural Dark Power, but false religious strongholds i.e. Judaism! The adversary (satan) is the false arguments demanding those to return to the Law of Moses and be circumcised! It is these that are changing the Gospel back to the Law - Read all of Galatians where the circumcision party had already had success!

7 Look at what is before your eyes. If anyone is confident that he is Christ's, let him remind himself that just as he is Christ's, so also are we. 8 For even if I boast a little too much of our authority, which the Lord gave for building you up and not for destroying you, I will not be ashamed. 9 I do not want to appear to be frightening you with my letters. 10 For they say, “His letters are weighty and strong, but his bodily presence is weak, and his speech of no account.” 11 Let such a person understand that what we say by letter when absent, we do when present. 12 Not that we dare to classify or compare ourselves with some of those who are commending themselves. But when they measure themselves by one another and compare themselves with one another, they are without understanding. 13 But we will not boast beyond limits, but will boast only with regard to the area of influence God assigned to us, to reach even to you. 14 For we are not overextending ourselves, as though we did not reach you. For we were the first to come all the way to you with the gospel of Christ. 15 We do not boast beyond limit in the labors of others. But our hope is that as your faith increases, our area of influence among you may be greatly enlarged, 2 Cor 10:

Now re read Janes quote:

“But the lawless one’s presence is by the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and wonders 10 and every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth in order that they might be saved. 11 That is why God lets a deceptive influence mislead them so that they may come to believe the lie, 12 in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness.”

Which adversary of Christ sought signs and wonders?
Which adversary of Christ reveal unrighteous deception?
Which adversary of Christ rejected the love of the truth (Gospel)
What God allowed them to hold to their beloved Moses and the Law?
Who did Christ say "took pleasure in unrighteousness?

That is the adversary Paul has in mind!

Jane is unable to show you the true nature of the adversary because it's not in the Word of God but in her mind alone!

F2F

@ElieG12 did you come back to this?

 

[Jack]

@Jack you never did go looking at what the angels did for Jesus when he ascended for the first time. Lucky for you I have a good memory !!

You could give JW's lessons at twisting Scripture.

 

[face2face]

You could give JW's lessons at twisting Scripture.

You gave up didn't you? It's that lazy thing we have been talking about.

 

[Jack]

You gave up didn't you? It's that lazy thing we have been talking about.

All you have is personal insults. I have the Word of God that you REJECT!

 

[quietthinker]

You understood my reply to this quiet? Death is the cost of God creating? The greatest cost was the sacrifice of His Son?

I do not hold to the view that Creation came at a cost nor that God killed (sacrificed) Jesus.
Creation was declared very good at its Creation and Jesus was declared as his beloved Son which he loved both at his baptism and on the Mountain.

The cost was the incarnation. Jesus has forever identified himself with humanity and we killed him. Acts 2:23 tells us this.
The Parable of the wicked husbandmen further reinforces this. Matthew 21:33-46

As far as God knowing this would occur does not make him complicit......as I have said before, prediction does not equal causation.

 

[face2face]

I do not hold to the view that Creation came at a cost nor that God killed (sacrificed) Jesus.

Does this mean you choose to ignore parts of Scripture that openly states God did?

Creation was declared very good at its Creation and Jesus was declared as his beloved Son which he loved both at his baptism and on the Mountain.

While this is true it doesnt change the reality that Jesus did the will of His Father in going to the cross.

The cost was the incarnation. Jesus has forever identified himself with humanity and we killed him. Acts 2:23 tells us this.

But that verse informs you that Jesus "was handed over to you by God's deliberate plan and foreknowledge"

I take you to be an intelligent person, all our discussions so far would not suggest otherwise.

So what does Acts 2:23 actually mean?

God used the devices of men (flesh) to accomplish the purposes of the Spirit. God's purpose in His Son was furthered through the evil and wicked actions of men. However, in order to have his Son fulfill the sacrifice required for the redemption of us, God remained in control though flesh did not understand this. His deliberate plan and foreknowledge had been designed by God from the beginning and required a perfect "lamb slain from the foundation of the world" (See Rev 13:8 & Gen 3:21) which would provide you a covering for sin.

Of note quiet, the word prognosei also occurs in 1 Pet. 1:2, applying to the selection of true believers.

God the Father knew you and chose you long ago, and his Spirit has made you holy. As a result, you have obeyed him and have been cleansed by the blood of Jesus Christ.

So, making the connection

1. Jesus (sacrifice) was in His plan from the beginning
2. God used wicked men to further that purpose
3. You (and others) were also known and cleansed by the sacrifice of His Son from His plan from before the beginning

I get why you would want to believe as you do but to do so would be to reject have of Acts 2:23 and unfortunately the part you reject would be His Love "God gave His Son...." you know the rest!

The Parable of the wicked husbandmen further reinforces this. Matthew 21:33-46

As far as God knowing this would occur does not make him complicit......as I have said before, prediction does not equal causation.

The parable is actually the perfect representation of Acts 2:23 (wow!)

36 Then he sent other servants to them, more than the first time, and the tenants treated them the same way. 37 Last of all, God sent his son to them. ‘They will respect my son,’ he said.

38 “But when the tenants saw the son, they said to each other, ‘This is the heir. Come, let’s kill him and take his inheritance.’ 39 So they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him.

Of course the Parable cannot push the aspect of God's Omnipotence due to its parameters but the intent is the same - God sent his son full well knowing what His People would do to him and that was a deliberate decision on His part. BTW it doesn't mean God did not intend for people to respect him - that God's highest purpose but to say He didnt know they wouldnt would be lying to yourself.

If what I was saying was true, just humour me for a moment - how would it change you view of God (be honest!) I'm sincerely asking this.

In his service
F2F

 

[face2face]

All you have is personal insults. I have the Word of God that you REJECT!

Yes, that's all I have Jack...you know.

 

[quietthinker]

Does this mean you choose to ignore parts of Scripture that openly states God did?


While this is true it doesnt change the reality that Jesus did the will of His Father in going to the cross.

But that verse informs you that Jesus "was handed over to you by God's deliberate plan and foreknowledge"

I take you to be an intelligent person, all our discussions so far would not suggest otherwise.

So what does Acts 2:23 actually mean?

God used the devices of men (flesh) to accomplish the purposes of the Spirit. God's purpose in His Son was furthered through the evil and wicked actions of men. However, in order to have his Son fulfill the sacrifice required for the redemption of us, God remained in control though flesh did not understand this. His deliberate plan and foreknowledge had been designed by God from the beginning and required a perfect "lamb slain from the foundation of the world" (See Rev 13:8 & Gen 3:21) which would provide you a covering for sin.

Of note quiet, the word prognosei also occurs in 1 Pet. 1:2, applying to the selection of true believers.

God the Father knew you and chose you long ago, and his Spirit has made you holy. As a result, you have obeyed him and have been cleansed by the blood of Jesus Christ.

So, making the connection

1. Jesus (sacrifice) was in His plan from the beginning
2. God used wicked men to further that purpose
3. You (and others) were also known and cleansed by the sacrifice of His Son from His plan from before the beginning

I get why you would want to believe as you do but to do so would be to reject have of Acts 2:23 and unfortunately the part you reject would be His Love "God gave His Son...." you know the rest!



The parable is actually the perfect representation of Acts 2:23 (wow!)

36 Then he sent other servants to them, more than the first time, and the tenants treated them the same way. 37 Last of all, God sent his son to them. ‘They will respect my son,’ he said.

38 “But when the tenants saw the son, they said to each other, ‘This is the heir. Come, let’s kill him and take his inheritance.’ 39 So they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him.

Of course the Parable cannot push the aspect of God's Omnipotence due to its parameters but the intent is the same - God sent his son full well knowing what His People would do to him and that was a deliberate decision on His part. BTW it doesn't mean God did not intend for people to respect him - that God's highest purpose but to say He didnt know they wouldnt would be lying to yourself.

If what I was saying was true, just humour me for a moment - how would it change you view of God (be honest!) I'm sincerely asking this.

In his service
F2F

Your attempts to prove that God is a killer who engineered Jesus' execution through men is precisely the picture and the kind of God the evil one wants men to have.

You join your dots and the scriptures according to your paradigm, however, your paradigm is faulty for the reasons I've stated above.

 

[face2face]

Your attempts to prove that God is a killer who engineered Jesus' execution through men is precisely the picture and the kind of God the evil one wants men to have.

You join your dots and the scriptures according to your paradigm, however, your paradigm is faulty for the reasons I've stated above.

No need to get defensive Quiet. I'm not having a go at you just pointing out that Acts 2:23 is very clearly telling you it was God determinate plan and forknowledge to sacrifice His Son. I'm not joining dots just revealing to you what that verse means.

There are really beautiful principles at work in God's plan and purpose to redeem you.

On one side of this God's purpose was achieved, while on the other side the people followed their own choice.

Do you recall that moment when Christ reminded Pilate that the governor had not power to prevent the Lord's crucifixion, because God's power was greater, and the crucifixion of Christ was in his Fathers purpose?

“You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above. Therefore the one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin.”

Have you also considered how his death in the manner it was done brought him under the curse of the Mosaic law? (by design) but due to Jesus perfect righteousness he was able to be delivered from that curse. There are so many principles which come out of the Law which are fulfilled by his death.

God designs Galatians 3:13

“But Christ has rescued us from the curse pronounced by the law. When he was hung on the cross, he took upon himself the curse for our wrongdoing. . ”

God designed Romans 6:5

“For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his.”

I get this may cause you to respond in a uncomfortable way - in fact, I'd prefer you don’t, just sit on what has been stated in the Word above and let it rest on you.

Also, don’t call God a killer, which is defamatory in its intent - God offering a perfect sacrifice is fulfilling the example of Abraham (faith) offering Isaac which again contains divine principles - you may not know those principles, though I am willing to show you anytime.

F2F

 

[face2face]

@quietthinker

Would it help if you received this truth from Christ himself?

Jesus said:
No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

Jesus here acknowledges its His Father commandment that Jesus lay down his life in the way planned.

 

[quietthinker]

Also, don’t call God a killer, which is defamatory in its intent - God offering a perfect sacrifice is fulfilling the example of Abraham (faith) offering Isaac contains divine principles - you do not know those principles though I am willing to show you anytime.

I understand you want to sanitise the blunt truth of your assertions F2F. That's the process every error follows.

God does not need blood (sacrifice) to forgive. God forgives because he loves. God made himself vulnerable because he loves.
He came to show us his glory and men hated him for it and murdered him....and in so doing exposed his glory to the inhabitants of the Universe. He came even though he knew what we would do to him.

Jesus' prayer to his Father in John 17 does not present a picture of a Son killing God who needs his Son dead for some 'in-house' rationale. It is a picture of tenderness the which few understand.

You quote scriptures without really understanding their intent but use the argument of 'the bible says so'. Satan used the same approach with Jesus in the wilderness.
Further, your denial of the reality of the devil (satan) by spiritualising him in spite of Jesus identifying him as a reality and the source of evil.....contrary to what the Jews believed, aligns your ideas more with Jewish thought than with Jesus.

 

[face2face]

I understand you want to sanitise the blunt truth of your assertions F2F. That's the process every error follows.

You have ignored all the references ,even the one you provided. You must admit this doesn't bode well for you.

God does not need blood (sacrifice) to forgive.

Paul speaks to this subject and is as clear as Paul can be.

God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. God did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— Romans 3:25

There is so much packed into this verse, we could speak to if for days and days!

However, rather than me explaining the verse, which is not going so well for us...it's worth reading the preceding verses, which show what God has accomplished through His Son (death & resurrection)... these verses explain how it was achieved.

There are principles in how God achieved this At-One-Ment through the blood of Jesus on the cross. It's burning in me to explain these principles, but I sense no Scripture could move you regardless how powerful and awe inspiring they might be.

Why did God present Christ as a sacrifice?

God did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus. Romans 3:26

So rather than misjudge God motives which it appears you want to do (in opposition to this truth) - whatever God deems as JUST must be right! I'm not sure if you understand how, or why this must be so...as I said I'm tempted to explain this fully to you, but I sense your mind is set on another Gospel message, other than the one presented by the Apostle Paul.

I believe you understand "some" of what was achieved, it's just that you don't know how or why.

The weight of Scripture is building upon each reply, so I'm unsure if you wish to continue this line of thought.

F2F