A Question for Jehovah's Witnesses

[rebuilder 454]

It's amazing how many non-JW's let them live - rent free- in your mind.

I suppose you'll deny mocking your fellow Christ follower?

A scoffer does not like to be reproved; he will not go to the wise.
Proverbs 15:12 ESV

...as if they are not in here deceiving and lying.
All my posts are spot on.
That is what you can not refute.

 

[rebuilder 454]

OK. So, you are providing answers rather than ask questions. The purpose of this thread is long gone.

My question to you is, so what about the Angel Michael thingy?

Stop dodging and tell us the position of watchtower.
Is Jesus Michael the archangel.
So simple and you struggle with a nothingburger

 

[marks]

It's amazing how many non-JW's let them live - rent free- in your mind.

I suppose you'll deny mocking your fellow Christ follower?

Mocking someone, then supposing someone else will deny mocking someone. Can you see this?

Much love!

 

[Wrangler]

Mocking someone, then supposing someone else will deny mocking someone. Can you see this?

Much love!

I see. Once again, you are the victim not the victimizer.

 

[Wrangler]

Stop dodging and tell us the position of watchtower.
Is Jesus Michael the archangel.
So simple and you struggle with a nothingburger

Not really an answer to the simple question, so what?

 

[Wrangler]

as if they are not in here deceiving and lying.

No. I trust the JW are sincere in their beliefs - as is everyone who posts here.

 

[marks]

Stop dodging and tell us the position of watchtower.
Is Jesus Michael the archangel.
So simple and you struggle with a nothingburger

That's something I notice also. These are simple matters. Or should be.

Much love!

 

[marks]

I see. Once again, you are the victim not the victimizer.

I think you may benefit from reviewing what I was replying to.

Much love!

 

[Aunty Jane]

Am I remembering correcting, that Watchtower teaching is that Michael took the persona of Jesus for the purpose of earthly life, and offering his sacrifice, and then resumed being Michael having returned to heaven? Or am I mistaken about that?

As I am in a different time zone, I don’t get to answer question right away, but thank you at least for asking….

Belief that Jesus is Michael in another role is just that…..it is a belief based on the scriptures that indicate that Jesus is assigned names in the various roles that he has played, as a dutiful son and servant of his Father. It is not a doctrine however because the Bible does not directly state this. Unlike Christendom, we do not have doctrines based on assumptions and the twisting of Scripture.

Here is our reasoning….

“The book of Jude tells us: “But when Michael the archangel had a difference with the Devil and was disputing about Moses’ body, he did not dare to bring a judgment against him in abusive terms, but said: ‘May Jehovah rebuke you.’” (Jude 9) This incident helps to show the closeness of Michael to God’s ancient people. Therefore, it supports the argument that he was the angel that went ahead of the Israelites to protect them.

We learn from Jude that Michael had the post of archangel. In fact, he was the archangel, since no other archangel is mentioned in the Bible, nor does the Bible use “archangel” in the plural. “Archangel” means “Chief of the angels.” (Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament) Among God’s spirit servants, only two names are associated with authority over angels: Michael and Jesus Christ. (Matthew 16:27; 25:31; 2 Thessalonians 1:7) This, too, argues that Jesus and Michael are the same.

Interestingly, the name of Jesus is linked with the word “archangel” in one of Paul’s letters. The apostle writes: “The Lord [Jesus] himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet.” (1 Thessalonians 4:16) The context places this event during “the presence of the Lord,” when Jesus has started to rule as king.—1 Thessalonians 4:15; Matthew 24:3; Revelation 11:15-18.

It is Jehovah’s will and arrangement for Jesus to resurrect the dead. (John 6:38-40) It is God’s trumpet that sounds the call for the dead to come back to life, just as God instructed that trumpets be used for an assembly of his people in ancient times. (Numbers 10:1-10) Jesus issues “a commanding call” to the dead to come forth, just as he did on occasion while on earth. (John 11:43) But now he calls, not with a man’s voice as he did then, but with all the power of “an archangel’s voice” (en pho·neʹ arkh·ag·geʹlou). However, only an archangel can call with an archangel’s voice! And no one but Jesushas been given the authority to resurrect the dead. Hence, this rousing prophecy gives additional strong reason for identifying Jesus with the archangel, Michael.

The apostle Paul wrote to the Hebrews: “He [Jesus] has become better than the angels, to the extent that he has inherited a name more excellent than theirs.” (Hebrews 1:4; Philippians 2:9, 10) However, this describes his situation after his having been here on earth. He was still the archangel and “the beginning of the creation by God.” (Revelation 3:14) But he became better than the angels, the ‘more excellent name’ or position is something he did not possess before coming to earth.”

So scriptural evidence supports the fact that the man Jesus could very well have been Michael in human form. Jesus was not called Jesus until he was a man. It is the man Jesus who was our savior and laid down that human life, so we would continue to call our savior by the name he bore whilst on earth.
Upon his return to heaven he was given a “new name” as Phil 2:9 states…a name that is “above every name” which would be pointless if he was God because he already has a name that is higher that all others. (Psalm 83:18)

Jesus also mentions his new name in Rev 3:12…..so we have scriptural backing for this assumption.
The only impediment to it being true in the eyes of many, is the indoctrination of the godhead, but Christendom promotes that assumption as doctrine, when it is never directly stated in a single scripture.
Christendom makes doctrines out of assumed beliefs, not biblical declarations. We are careful not to do that.

 

[marks]

Belief that Jesus is Michael in another role is just that…..it is a belief based on the scriptures that indicate that Jesus is assigned names in the various role that he has played, as a dutiful son and servant of his Father.

Thank you for confirming this is your belief.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Therefore, it supports the argument that he was the angel that went ahead of the Israelites to protect them.

Are you saying then the Michael is the one known in the OT as "the angel of the LORD"?

Much love!

 

[Aunty Jane]

To a certain extent, this is semantics. If a human bows down and "worships" another human being (even if in their mind that person is God incarnate), it does not mean the human being is God, e.g., Caesar, Augustus, and here for a long list of others.

As the word definition describes…”semantics” is concerned with the meaning of words as they are presented in context and especially in translation from original language words that give a full picture as to the meaning, instead of one stilted, immovable definition that throws every other meaning out the window.

The word in Greek is “proskyneō” and it means….

1. “to kiss the hand to (towards) one, in token of reverence
2. among the Orientals, esp. the Persians, to fall upon the knees and touch the ground with the forehead as an expression of profound reverence
3. in the NT by kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication
   1. used of homage shown to men and beings of superior rank
      1. to the Jewish high priests
      2. to God
      3. to Christ
      4. to heavenly beings
      5. to demons”

Since the word we use for worship has such a broad definition in Greek, why are there arguments regarding what it means when it is a broad reference. Taking the customs of the day into consideration, it was not an unusual greeting to bow before someone out of respect. It is the same word, so context would determine the rendering. If done to a human, in the Bible it is obeisance….if offered to God (and bowing down was not commanded for the Israelites) then it would be an act of worship.

What did the devil ask of Jesus?….
“So he brought him up and showed him all the kingdoms of the inhabited earth in an instant of time. 6 Then the Devil said to him: “I will give you all this authority and their glory, because it has been handed over to me, and I give it to whomever I wish. 7 If you, therefore, do an act of worship before me, it will all be yours.”

He was asking a man to bow before him as a spirit being…..it is still “proskyneō”. This would have been the ultimate betrayal of the son to his Father.

Jesus answered all the devil’s temptations with Scripture…..”It is written”….

People who make this kind of argument imply words create reality.

Words do, Wrangler…..God’s words are powerful in themselves….Paul wrote….
”For the word of God is alive and exerts power and is sharper than any two-edged sword+ and pierces even to the dividing of soul and spirit, and of joints from the marrow, and is able to discern thoughts and intentions of the heart.” (Heb 4:12)

Just reading God’s word with an open and humble heart can change a person’s whole life…..


BTW, welcome to “the watchtower”….seems like you have attained membership against your will….
Guilt by association…..apparently.
Everyone who disagrees with the party line must of necessity be a “watchtower” subscriber…..

 

[Aunty Jane]

Are you saying then the Michael is the one known in the OT as "the angel of the LORD"?

Much love!

Yes……Michael has been the Commander in Chief of the angels since their creation. As “the Great Prince” he is the son of the King, Yahweh.….but he is not the only son…he is God’s unique firstborn and only begotten.

 

[marks]

Yes……Michael has been the Commander in Chief of the angels since their creation. As “the Great Prince” he is the son of the King, Yahweh.….but he is not the only son…he is God’s unique firstborn and only begotten.

Thank you!

Much love!

 

[Aunty Jane]

Thank you!

Much love!

If only people would ask us, rather that go on rants assuming that we are biblically illiterate….moronic statements made by hot heads with half truths and no Christian qualities whatsoever, just make fools of themselves….and are the reason why these topics end up banned. It is possible to discuss and to debate and to present arguments for and against with rational and mature discussion…..but for some, self-control is an issue and personal insults replace scriptural evidence……so, since self control is a fruit of God’s spirit…we see what is sadly lacking…..a “warrior” with a blunt sword and a bad mouth is a poor excuse for a Christian IMO.

 

[marks]

. . . moronic statements made by hot heads with half truths and no Christian qualities whatsoever, just make fools of themselves . . . .

. . . but for some, self-control is an issue and personal insults replace scriptural evidence . . .

Interesting comparison of comments from a single post . . .

Much love!

 

[The Learner]

It is refreshing to see someone such as yourself with such conviction and awareness of the fact that there is indeed an infection within what is commonly referred to as the church. According to some studies, there is a combination of approximately 45,000 Christian denominations, sub-denominations, sects, and cults globally. They all aren't saying the same things, the Bible versions and translations aren't all saying the same things, but the true church still exists and may be unrecognizable to the casual onlooker.

However, if we keep seeking and loving the truth we will find it. Never cease being brave to follow Jesus' teachings, even when he seems to say things that are contrary to what we previously believed. For Jesus said, "everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life."

The question is, do we have the bravery it takes to lose relationships, lose financial opportunities, become unpopular, stop itching others' ears, and risk it all for the kingdom of God? For Jesus also said, "Whoever loves father or mother or son or daughter more than me is not fit to be my disciple." We should take that seriously out of sincere love and devotion for God and His Son Jesus. We each have a duty to make a personal decision regarding our choices and obedience to the Gospel we have placed our faith in.

The old 45,000 Christian denominations. I spoke with one of the authors of the Encylopedia. They used a sociality definition for denominations. This exageration makes one look like htey have no idea what they are talking about. Each of the branch offices and congerations will be counted as a seperate denomination by they source.

 

[The Learner]

 

[The Learner]

The Bible Students still exist, independent of the Jehovah’s Witnesses. These are two different groups with different belief systems.

Some of the groups that broke off from the Jehovah’s Witnesses are as follows:

1. Christian Prophets of Jehovah (Formed by Timonthy Tauver a Bethelite in 1970s)
2. Servants Of Yah (Formed by C.H. Zook in 1943)
3. The Bible Student Examiner (Not sure of the group, but it was formed by former Watchtower lawyer, Olin Moyle) they published this magazine and died off in 1982.
4. Back to the Bible Way (Formed by Roy D. Goodrich in 1945, published a journal from 1952–1973)
5. Goshen Fellowship (Formed in 1951 by Jesse Hemery who was Vice-president of the IBSA in the UK) The group folded a few years ago.
6. Christian Fellowship International (Formed by M. James Penton in 1981)

1. Christian Witnesses of Jah (Formed by Greg Stafford in 2007)
2. Jehovah’s Watchman (Formed by Robert King in the 1992)
3. Jehovah’s Watchmen (Formed by Joshua Stone)

I’m sure there are others, but these are the ones I know of off the top of my head.

 

[The Learner]

5 years ago​

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