Mantis
Well-Known Member
I think the melting of the elements is an end to every living thing on earth, then he will renew it. The Earth is forever.
A history of failed prophecies
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I think the melting of the elements is an end to every living thing on earth, then he will renew it. The Earth is forever.
Mantis,
Okay, thank you for sharing with me. I do not mind if people believe this, because I’m not here to judge. Thank you for your comment, brother in Christ.
Hope all of you have a good rest of your day, evening, or night where every you are from, and May Gods hand be with you, in your daily walk.
I do believe that the world will be destroyed by fire as Peter says and adds how the world was destroyed by water to confirm that it is literal and this would agree with the fire coming down from heaven in revelation 20. So yes this world as we know it will come to an end.
My point about Genesis is that the only way to know when and why god will destroy the world we have to look back at the bible and see when and why god destroyed the world the only time in the past
God didn’t destroy the world because it was evil it always has been and always will be evil. God destroyed the world because the faithful men from the line of Seth conformed to the women from the unfaithful line of Cain. God will end our world when the church conforms to the ways of the world just like it has been doing for a while. So it could be in our life time but it could still go on for a while
Martyfox
Okay, thank you for sharing with me. Like I said before to mantis. I’m not here to judge it simply how you believe. Thank you for being open and honest with my brother, and as you can see I differ but that is okay.
May Gods hand be with you and your family and all families here and friends, and strangers, I’m gonna go ahead and get off here and head to work soon.
You all take care and thank you each for the chat.
Bob Carabbio
Well-Known Member
That is the cynical take on eschatology. On the other hand the bulk of Scripture consists of prophecies which were either fulfilled or remain to be fulfilled. And speculations can be ignored for what is actually presented.
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
No. Not about dates, but they were right about the time. When Jesus came the first time He announced His arrival
KJV Mark 1:15
15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
At the time of the end, a similar message is to be preached but time specific...
KJV Revelation 14:6-12
6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Note... The judgement has come!
I never noticed that before , food for thought, thank you.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Be careful how hard you laugh.....
What are prophesies for do you think? Are they just there to confuse us or to torment us with their mysteries? Or is there a message in them for the ones to whom God reveals them?
Why did Jesus come in the first place and what does his return mean?
Why did Jesus say in Matthew as part of his instructions to his apostles concerning the time of his return....
"But know one thing: If the householder had known in what watch the thief was coming, he would have kept awake and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 On this account, you too prove yourselves ready, because the Son of man is coming at an hour that you do not think to be it."
If you think back to the days when Jesus walked the earth...he too was classed as somewhat of a cult leader and his disciples were likewise branded as defectors from the faith.....history repeats because humans can never seem to learn the lessons of the past.....the majority are not always right.....in fact God's people have never been a majority.
The end of an era occurred in the first century (70CE) when the Romans destroyed Jerusalem and obliterated God's Temple just as Jesus forewarned in Matthew 24. But some prophesies have dual fulfillments....one in the day and another in the future. Matthew 24 is clearly one of those prophesies.
The disciples asked Jesus an important question..."And as He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?” (Matthew 24:3 NASB)
So because word meanings are important, most Bible translations render "parousia" as "coming" in that verse, when in actual fact, it means "presence". So they were not asking about his "coming" when he will judge the world, but about his "presence" when all the features of the sign he gave them would be fulfilled. (Matthew 24:4-14)
Jesus' "presence" was when he promised to be "with" his disciples in a most important work....he said to them...
"Go, therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to follow all that I commanded you; and behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”
This is a feature of the sign...."the good news will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations" before "the end" came....the end is in sight because all the features of the sign have already been fulfilled, starting with the greatest war in the history of mankind. WW 1 which was followed by food shortages and pestilence in the form of the Spanish Flu.....who cannot see that genuine love has left the world, and immorality and violence are rife.
Jesus said that the world of that time would be "just like the days of Noah"....with no one taking note of the sign of the times and then suddenly, as Luke's account states....it would be upon them "like a trap". (Matthew 24:37-39) And here we are....
Luke 21:34-35...
“But be on your guard, so that your hearts will not be weighed down with dissipation and drunkenness and the worries of life, and that this day will not come on you suddenly, like a trap; 35 for it will come upon all those who live on the face of all the earth."
Don't be too sure that this is not all happening right now, just as Jesus said....this is global.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Present me with a doctrine Enoch and I will refute it with scripture....
Lets start with "hellfire".....
Have you ever witnessed someone being tortured? Have you heard of people being tortured by fire?
This was done in the Spanish Inquisition...
What about the burning of the witches...
Can you imagine Jesus and his apostles standing there approving of this? Was torture ever used in Israel to punish anyone? Can you even imagine what it is like to see the flames and feel them burning your body?
Can you tell me what punishment was for...what did it achieve when someone did something against God's law?
Punishment was administered according to God's perfect justice. If a man took a life...he forfeited his own. Was he tortured to death? No, even when offenders were stoned, a well placed rock could kill a man instantly.
The highest penalty under God's law was death. It ensured that the person never re-offended and that God's justice was satisfied. The life taken was atoned for by the life of the murderer.
What about other crimes? What was the purpose of punishment? Wasn't it to teach them something? Wasn't it designed to move a person to repent and turn back from his bad ways? What does hell accomplish from God's perspective? Can you tell me? If we are made in his image and we are repulsed at the thought of torturing anyone, don't you think God would be too?
Ezekiel 33:11...
"Say to them, ‘As I live!’ declares the Lord (Yahweh) God, ‘I take no pleasure at all in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then should you die, house of Israel?’"
Even the death of the wicked brings no joy to God, let alone torturing them eternally.
What does punishment for punishment's sake, accomplish? That is not the God of the Bible, nor is it anything that Jesus Christ would approve.
God's words to his people after they were sacrificing their infants in the fire to the god Molech...(Jeremiah 7:31)
"They have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the Valley of Ben-hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, and it did not come into My mind."
Another example is the city of Nineveh, the capital of ancient Assyria. As reported in the Bible, the inhabitants of that city became so wicked that Yahweh was going to destroy them. Nevertheless, he gave them an opportunity to abandon their wrongdoing. In his boundless love and mercy he sent the prophet Jonah to them. “Only forty days more, and Nineveh will be overthrown,” was the startling announcement of God’s prophet. (Jonah 3:4)
The Ninevites knew that they had made a bad record for themselves. Their God-given conscience condemned them. Though not worshipers of Jonah's God, they were still given to the fear of deities. So when they heard a foreigner, who had no conceivable personal interest in them, declare with boldness their coming destruction, the Ninevites were shocked to their senses. The whole city, including the king, repented in sackcloth and ashes.
Mercifully the God of love spared the repentant Ninevites from the calamity that his prophet had pronounced against them.
So could this same God torture people after death in an eternal fire with no possibility of repentance and forgiveness?
Where does this teaching originate? Some point to Jesus' description of "Gehenna" erroneously translated as "hell" in their Bible, but nothing could be further from the truth.....Gehenna was Jerusalem's garbage dump in the Valley of Hinnom, just outside the city's walls.....where the bodies of wicked evil doers were cast into the flames for disposal, not torture. Nothing alive ever went in to Gehenna. The flames were kept burning day and night to consume the rubbish and what the flames missed, the maggots finished off.....so what you base your belief on is not true and never was. Gehenna was used by Jesus to represent a death from which no resurrection was possible. Like the "lake of fire" in Revelation, it is a symbolic place because "death and hades" are also thrown into this lake to be destroyed.
"And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them; and they were judged, each one of them according to their deeds. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire." (Revelation 20:13-14)
Hades is not an eternal "hell". The "lake of fire" is "the second death"....a death from which no one is resurrected.
Jesus spoke again of Gehenna saying...
"And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.[Gehenna]"
So the whole person "body and soul" is "destroyed" in "Gehenna".
What makes "Hell" a place of conscious torment to those in Christendom who believe in it? Belief in an immortal soul that survives the death of the body....and yet this is not a Bible teaching either.....the Bible teaches that death is the opposite of life...not a continuation of it. Jesus believed in the resurrection and he raised people from the dead....he even experienced it himself. It is a restoration of life, not a continuation of it.
So argue those with me from scripture and lets see where we get?
Not nearly as long as Christendom has.....the weeds sown by the devil were not a recent event....
Hmm. I don't know but I am concerned about the world. I know there are a lot of false prophets out there though.
Yes, I understand how you look at it. I’ve read every one of your posts in this thread, Marty, as I don’t run across you much and was eager to finally hear you some. :)
I have seen how prophetic scripture can jack back and forth as in when Jesus got up to read and I can’t unsee it now, and actually think it is a key to dividing prophetic scripture correctly. Actually, I have seen ANOTHER key concerning something else which a friend shared with me and am convinced there may even be MORE keys. I would prefer someone more learned apply this key rather than me but I haven’t found that person as everyone has their minds made up already and can’t see the key as I have. Maybe one day, a more learned man will see it, as I do freely share it, and will be able, with Gods help, to use it more adeptly than I.
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
None of us know now whether we are a sheep or a goat? How totally hypocritical it must have been for the apostles of the first century to encourage people to convert to Christianity, ensuring a likely difficult life of destitution and an early and violent death, but without knowing whether what they were preaching to everyone was actually the truth, and the people who they were sending to their deaths at the hands of scoffing idolaters weren't sure why they were dying and what for. What an interesting scenario and out of the box perspective of New Testament Christianity and the early church.
Add to the above all those who died at the hands of the pagans of those nations outside of the empire...the Zoroastrians of Persia...the Picts of Britain...then later at the hands of the Papacy...all those millions of martyrs and not one knowing whether he was saved or not. What a sad and depressing death they all must have experienced.
I get what you are saying, but it could happen in my lifetime and it might not too, we do not know, only God knows that day.
All these false predictions though about year and day can be harmful though, to build up expectation of a certain year can lead to many disappointments to those following whoever is making these predictions about the timing of the apocalypse.
I was just reading the Olivet discourse and I believe the sheep and goats judgement is at the second resurrection (remember where it talks of the first one?) And it’s very hopeful, because there are people there who He gives welcome to who are stunned. They say, when did we ever do these things? And He says, you did it for one of mine. These are people who don’t seem to even know Him! Yet they are like…Sisera? Who hid the men of God?
They may or may not have known who they were helping but I don’t think they helped because of who someone was or wasn’t but rather because they just saw someone in need.
I used to struggle with why God let me see Him and gave me His Spirit when I could plainly see there were naturally kinder and more deserving people He could have done this for. Then a good friend gave me a key to understanding it and not only did this key make me shun unmerciful church men but literally everything I now read showed my friend to be correct about the key!
Concerning those people He welcomes who seem to not even know Him, it’s almost like “if you’ve broken one law you’ve broken them all” works in reverse and if they kept one command they kept them all! Since they received little, less was required of them…
He is…too wonderful for any words…
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Brakelite
Well-Known Member
I don't believe that judgment is at the end of the millennium, which begins at the second coming.
When Jesus comes, His reward is with Him to give to every man according to his works. Revelation 22:12. In order for Jesus to accurately direct His angels to gather His saints from the 4 corners of the earth, judgement must have been made prior to His coming...that being right now. Judgement we are told begins in the house of God. That judgement is described in Revelation 11:1. That pre-advent judgement was announced with the global proclamation of the gospel beginning in the mid 19th century...
Revelation 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
The proclamation, the hour of His judgement is come, is an essential component of the gospel message to the last days church. This must be before the second coming, beyond which the gospel becomes redundant as a warning and a hope.
However, you have made a good point. Yes, there will be many I believe who are surprised that they are surrounded by Christians, and later at the second resurrection which is of the wicked alone, there will be many shocked and horrified that they missed out. Those surprised ones however will be a minority. The vast majority of those who are in the end saved, know Him in Whom they have believed. They aren't there by chance.
In conclusion, I am convinced that we are today witnessing in real time, that division of the sheep and goats. The church is dividing. And the gulf between the sheep and the goats is widening. The fruit now making its appearance which identifies them as either tares or wheat, is coming to the fore. We write of this division every day in numerous threads on this forum. Not one individual however on either extreme is yet set their feet in concrete. A declaration to that effect is made by Jesus just prior to His coming.
Revelation 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
Thanks to everyone who has posted here. I didn’t expect these many answers since last night.
I just wanted to say that I don’t doubt Revelations, but I don’t have this need to try to predict the end of the world like many men before me have tried to do.
Also someone else here (@Heart2Soul ) mentioned that some prophecies have been fulfilled in the past and that is true especially with the case of a Jesus. He fulfilled over 60 prophecies from the Old Testament but I’m sure many men tried to predict his coming and failed too.
So we just don’t know.
I just wanted to say that I don’t doubt Revelations, but I don’t have this need to try to predict the end of the world like many men before me have tried to do.
Also someone else here (@Heart2Soul ) mentioned that some prophecies have been fulfilled in the past and that is true especially with the case of a Jesus. He fulfilled over 60 prophecies from the Old Testament but I’m sure many men tried to predict his coming and failed too.
So we just don’t know.
And also, most amazingly, the people who should have known didn’t know a sign of His birth appeared. Three dudes from over yonder showed up and said, hey! Where is He? We’ve come to see Him! And all of the people in Jerusalem, it says, were in distress!
I guess we can probably expect a repeat of that, where the people who should have known won’t be the ones who know!
Hidden In Him
Well-Known Member
I was meaning to tell you that this sort of title will get all kinds of play, LoL.
For one, it raises the question of if modern prophecies are real, which starts the Cessationist vs. Continuist debate all over again. For another, there are wildly different views on how the Biblical prophecies should be interpreted. Backlit is a Historicist, whereas people like myself are Futurists, and this too can become a massive debate that takes going through every prophecy in scripture and dissecting and treating each one (which I doubt either of us or anyone else in this thread right now is interested in doing, but you never know, LoL).
When you add in discussion of all the offshoot cults who predicted His return was coming in 1914, or 1996, or 2012 and any host of other dates, the conversation becomes virtually endless. So consider it a lessen learned on what to expect with this sort of subject matter. Sometime 20 years from now, someone may go dig this thread up out of the crypt and go pick a fight with someone with it all over again, Lol.
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