A heretical teaching dismantled with the help of Paul the Evangelist.

[Sigma]

There is no fact, only distortion.

No distortion from me, only from others.

 

[face2face]

And I've refuted every argument against my evidence. If you think you can refute my evidence take a shot at it.

 

[face2face]

wow, just wow


"My soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord;

my spirit rejoices in God my savior.

For he has looked upon his handmaid's lowliness; behold, from now on will all ages call me blessed.

The Mighty One has done great things for me, and holy is his name.

His mercy is from age to age to those who fear him.

He has shown might with his arm, dispersed the arrogant of mind and heart.

He has thrown down the rulers from their thrones but lifted up the lowly.

The hungry he has filled with good things; the rich he has sent away empty.

He has helped Israel his servant, remembering his mercy,

according to his promise to our fathers, to Abraham and to his descendants forever."

Her journey to discipleship was the hardest of them all. The sword thrust hard into her soul. The study of Mary's walk is very rewarding.

F2F

 

[Sigma]

I get what you are trying to do and prove, what I dont get is why! Not once have you said "this is the reason why this truth is so important"....not once.

I've provided evidence that proves Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) were the sons of Jesus's mother's spouse's brother, Alphaeus, and his wife Mary of Alphaeus (Clopas/Cleophas), and thus Jesus's cousins, not His siblings. That's important because it's the Truth. When is the Truth not important?

Have you noticed Psalm 69:11

I adopted sackcloth as my garment— and became a mockery for them.

And when his family heard it, they went out to seize him, for they were saying, “He is out of his mind.” Mark 3:21

And his mother and his brothers came, and standing outside they sent to him and called him.Mark 3:31

Yes, includes Mary and her sons! @Sigma

Jesus not only had he become a mockery by the people but also in his own family!

No wonder he rebuked them as he did

F2F

The Koine Greek word "ἀδελφοί" (sing. ἀδελφός adelphos; pl. ἀδελφοὶ adelphoi), translated to "brothers" in English, isn't the word "sons," and it has multiple definitions, e.g., "fellow-countryman," "disciple/follower," "one of the same faith," and "a near kinsman, or relative," e.g., sibling, cousin, nephew, uncle, or aunt, etc., and in the plural it regularly refers to men and women.etc.

Furthermore, you believe those brothers in Mk. 3:21;31 to have been Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) from Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3, and I've confirmed they were Jesus's kinsmen, as well as proven they were specifically His cousins.

Gal 1:9 & Mark 6:3 is more than not considered to the the eldest after Jesus (by Joseph and Mary) —unfortuntely for you there is no hint anywhere in the NT that James and the others mentioned in Mark 6:3 were anything other than full brothers of Jesus.

You or I can twist it either way!

F2F

If they were Jesus's siblings, they wouldn't have been full siblings, but rather half-siblings, as they wouldn't have shared Joseph as a father. However, again, as I said in post #15:

The flaw in your believing James of the four "siblings" of Jesus in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 and apostle James in Gal. 1:19 were the same person is that the latter was one of the Twelve, which means that he could've only been either James of Zebedee or James of Alphaeus, and neither of them were a son of Joseph and Mary.

However, you are right that the James in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 and apostle James in Gal. 1:19 were the same person. I've provided evidence which confirms that, as well as evidence that shows he was the apostle James of Alphaeus, and that he and his three siblings were the sons of Jesus's mother's spouse's brother, Alphaeus, and his wife Mary of Cleophas (Clopas/Alphaeus), and thus were Jesus's cousins, not siblings.

I have yet to receive an answer from you to my question in post #12 as well.

 

[Philip James]

Her journey to discipleship was the hardest of them all. The sword thrust hard into her soul. The study of Mary's walk is very rewarding.

F2F

Mary was a disciple of Jesus before HE was even born! As the Magnificat demonstrates..

Pax et Bonum

 

[Sigma]

You believe you have been enlightened with some private understanding of scripture.

How so?

...just another person on a forum pretending they have hidden knowledge that others are not privy to.

How so?

At this point you are ego driven, not looking for truth but merely trying to make a proclamation of your own prominence.

How so?

A child can understand
And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS

I've proven that those you claim to have been Jesus's siblings were actually His cousins, so the word "firstborn" in Matt. 1:25 isn't used there in the way you think.

You have been refuted and proven wrong by many members.

No one, including you, has refuted anything I said. In fact, you didn't even reply to any of my counter-arguments in posts #96 and #97, nor have you even attempted to refute my evidence that proves Jesus's "siblings" were the sons of Joseph's brother, Alphaeus, thus making them His cousins. Do you really think that makes you look like you refuted me?...

 

[David in NJ]

This thread is directed at those who claim both the following:

(i) that Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) in Matt: 13:55/Mk. 6:3 were Jesus's siblings
(ii) that James of the four in Matt: 13:55/Mk. 6:3 and James in Gal. 1:19 were the same person

In Gal. 1:18-19, it's indicated by Paul that James was both an apostle of the Twelve and a family member of Jesus. The reason being that after Paul mentions he had seen the apostle Peter, one of the twelve apostles, in Jerusalem, he continues to say that he didn't see any of the other apostles, except James. The context of Gal. 1:18-19 is what indicates that James was one of the twelve apostles. It's the title "the Lord's brother" that follows James's first name that indicates he was also Jesus's family member.

The flaw in your believing that James in Gal. 1:19 was James of the four "siblings" of Jesus in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 is that the former was one of the Twelve, which means that he had he had to have been either James of Zebedee or James of Alphaeus, and neither of them were a son of Joseph and Mary.

Therefore, I've proven the belief that Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 were Jesus's siblings to be false using Scripture alone, but if you continue to repeat it as true, then I'll continue to challenge you to refute the evidence to the contrary in this post. If you have a sliver of conviction in your belief, then you'd attempt to try. Note: This in itself does not prove Mary of Joseph was a perpetual Virgin, though there are reasons that show She is.

However, you are still right about two things: that James in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 was Jesus's family member, and that he and apostle James of the Twelve in Gal. 1:19 were the same person, who again, was either apostle James of Zebedee or apostle James of Alphaeus. So, what type of family member would either apostle James of Zebedee, or apostle James of Alphaeus, have been to Jesus?

The answer is here, and in short, there I've shown that James in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3, James in Gal. 1:19, and the apostle James of Alphaeus, etc., were the same person, and that he and his siblings Joseph, Simon, and Judas (who I've also shown was the apostle Judas of Alphaeus) were the sons of Joseph's brother, Alphaeus, and thus Jesus's cousins. And, they were called Jesus's "ἀδελφοί" (sing. ἀδελφός adelphos; pl. ἀδελφοὶ adelphoi), or "brothers" in English, and because the information I provided in the previously cited link shows they were His family, specifically cousins, that's why its definition "a near kinsman, or relative," which can and has been used to refer to various types of kin, including cousin, applies.​

Joseph and Mary FULLY participated in God's Commandment to have SEX = "Be fruitful and multiply" = according to the will of God

Joseph impregnated Mary according to God's Commandment: "Do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife"

Doctrines of demons (heresy) is found throughout Roman Catholicism, such as: "Commanding not marry"

1 Timothy 4:1-5
Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

 

[face2face]

Joseph and Mary FULLY participated in God's Commandment to have SEX = "Be fruitful and multiply" = according to the will of God

Joseph impregnated Mary according to God's Commandment: "Do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife"

Doctrines of demons (heresy) is found throughout Roman Catholicism, such as: "Commanding not marry"

1 Timothy 4:1-5
Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

Boy this post will have Sigma really "excited" to dump more garb on the forum!
Nice work.

 

[face2face]

No one, including you, has refuted anything I said..

Those who have no ears cannot be refuted. You are no different to those would be believers in John 8!

 

[Sigma]

:yawn:

Joseph and Mary FULLY participated in God's Commandment to have SEX = "Be fruitful and multiply" = according to the will of God

Joseph impregnated Mary according to God's Commandment: "Do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife"

Jesus walked the earth for 33 years having no wife to bear children. As a Jew, Jesus was raised according to Jewish laws and customs (Gal. 4:4), and He fulfilled the Law of God perfectly (Matt. 5:17). However, Jesus was not physically “fruitful,” nor did He “multiply,” indicating that Gen. 1:28 is not a command for every person to obey. In addition, Jesus said that celibacy is a personal choice, neither condemning it nor praising it above marriage and childbearing (Matt. 19:12).

Furthermore, if being fruitful and multiplying is an express command for all couples to bear children, we run into the problem of infertility. While the Bible does say that children are a blessing from the Lord (Ps. 127:3-5), nowhere in Scripture is infertility condemned as a sin or a curse from God.

Joseph and Mary were already married when the angel told Joseph, "Do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife," which was said to encourage him to keep Her as his wife, since he had seen her pregnant state when they hadn't had sexual intercourse. And, I've already proven that those whom you claim were Jesus's siblings were actually the sons of Jesus's mother's spouse's brother, Alphaeus, and thus His cousins.

Additionally, Joachim and Anne consecrated Mary to the Temple, because they knew the Messiah would be born of a virgin of David's issue, and that His coming was close to the appointed time. (The Poem of the Man-God: Vol. I, ch. 6, pp. 19-22)

At the age of three, Mary was brought to the Temple, where She remained until She came of age, and the High Priest informed Her it was time to marry, to which She expressed having consecrated Herself to God. In reply, the High Priest advised Her to pray that God will give Her a spouse that would understand Her vow of chastity. (The Poem of the Man-God: Vol. I, ch. 8, pp. 25-28)

The Law prescribed that each man be given a woman of his own stock (Lev. 21:14). Therefore, at the request of the High Priest, many men of the race of David gathered in the Temple, and out of them all He appointed Joseph of Jacob of Bethlehem, a Nazirite (Hebrew who had taken special vows of abstinence, see Num. 6), as Mary's spouse. When Joseph and Mary met for the first time, each expressed their vows, and these are their words:

Joseph said to Mary, "I am a Nazirite," and Mary replied, "Also I am of the Lord, Joseph. I do not know whether the High Priest told you..."

"He only told me that You are good and pure, that You wish to inform me of a vow, and that I must be good to you. Speak, Mary. Your Joseph wants You to be happy in all Your desires. I do not love You my with body. I love You with my soul, holy girl given to me by God! Please see in me a father and a brother, in addition to a husband. And open Your heart to me as to a father and rely on me as on a brother..."

"Since My childhood I have consecrated Myself to the Lord. I know this is not the custom in Israel. But I heard a voice requesting My virginity as a sacrifice of love for the coming of the Messiah. Israel has been waiting for Him for such a long time!... It is not too much to forgo the joy of being a mother for that!"

Joseph gazes at Her as if he wanted to read Her heart, then he takes Her tiny hands which are still holding the branch in blossom and he says: "I will join my sacrifice to Yours and we shall love the Eternal Father so much with our chastity that He will send His Saviour to the world earlier, and will allow us to see His Light shining in the world." (The Poem of the Man-God: Vol. I, ch. 12, pp. 36-39)

 

[David in NJ]

:yawn:



Jesus walked the earth for 33 years having no wife to bear children. As a Jew, Jesus was raised according to Jewish laws and customs (Gal. 4:4), and He fulfilled the Law of God perfectly (Matt. 5:17). However, Jesus was not physically “fruitful,” nor did He “multiply,” indicating that Gen. 1:28 is not a command for every person to obey. In addition, Jesus said that celibacy is a personal choice, neither condemning it nor praising it above marriage and childbearing (Matt. 19:12).

Furthermore, if being fruitful and multiplying is an express command for all couples to bear children, we run into the problem of infertility. While the Bible does say that children are a blessing from the Lord (Ps. 127:3-5), nowhere in Scripture is infertility condemned as a sin or a curse from God.

Joseph and Mary were already married when the angel told Joseph, "Do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife," which was said to encourage him to keep Her as his wife, since he had seen her pregnant state when they hadn't had sexual intercourse. And, I've already proven that those whom you claim were Jesus's siblings were actually the sons of Jesus's mother's spouse's brother, Alphaeus, and thus His cousins.

Additionally, Joachim and Anne consecrated Mary to the Temple, because they knew the Messiah would be born of a virgin of David's issue, and that His coming was close to the appointed time. (The Poem of the Man-God: Vol. I, ch. 6, pp. 19-22)

At the age of three, Mary was brought to the Temple, where She remained until She came of age, and the High Priest informed Her it was time to find a husband, to which She expressed having consecrated Herself to God. In reply, the High Priest advised Her to pray that God will give Her a spouse that would understand Her vow of chastity. (The Poem of the Man-God: Vol. I, ch. 8, pp. 25-28)

The Law prescribed that each man be given a woman of his own stock (Lev. 21:14). Therefore, at the request of the High Priest, many men of the race of David gathered in the Temple, and out of them all He appointed Joseph of Jacob of Bethlehem, a Nazirite (Hebrew who had taken special vows of abstinence, see Num. 6), as Mary's spouse. When Joseph and Mary met for the first time, each expressed their vow of chastity, and these are their words:

JESUS walked this earth with His Bride

JESUS is not of this world whereby He needed to produce children of the flesh.

JOHN 8:23
Then Jesus said to them again, “I am going away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin. Where I go you cannot come.”
So the Jews said, “Will He kill Himself, because He says, ‘Where I go you cannot come’?”
And He said to them, “You are from beneath; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”

JESUS Offspring are those who are Born-Again by the Spirit of God.

 

[Sigma]

JESUS walked this earth with His Bride

JESUS is not of this world whereby He needed to produce children of the flesh.

JOHN 8:23
Then Jesus said to them again, “I am going away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin. Where I go you cannot come.”
So the Jews said, “Will He kill Himself, because He says, ‘Where I go you cannot come’?”
And He said to them, “You are from beneath; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”

JESUS Offspring are those who are Born-Again by the Spirit of God.

Jesus was still human and raised according to Jewish laws and customs (Gal. 4:4), and He fulfilled the Law of God perfectly (Matt. 5:17). However, Jesus was not physically “fruitful,” nor did He “multiply,” indicating that Gen. 1:28 is not a command for every person to obey. If being fruitful and multiplying is an express command for all couples to bear children, He would've obeyed that too, and we run into the problem of infertility. While the Bible does say that children are a blessing from the Lord (Ps. 127:3-5), nowhere in Scripture is infertility condemned as a sin or a curse from God. Jesus also said that celibacy is a personal choice, neither condemning it nor praising it above marriage and childbearing (Matt. 19:12).

Joseph impregnated Mary according to God's Commandment: "Do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife"

Joseph and Mary were already married when the angel told Joseph, "Do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife," which was said to encourage him to keep Her as his wife, since he had seen her pregnant state when they hadn't had sexual intercourse. And, I've already proven that those whom you claim were Jesus's siblings were actually the sons of Jesus's mother's spouse's brother, Alphaeus, and thus His cousins.

 

[Marymog]

Sigma couldn't provide an answer to why its an important teaching. I wonder if you are able to provide one spiritual principle from your belief?
Let's see how you go.
F2F

Truth matters....

 

[Marymog]

Notice how both you and Sigma are struggling to show one principle in your teaching, not one!
It's telling.
F2F

Is Truth a principle?

It may not matter to you, but it matters to me.

 

[Marymog]

@Sigma @Marymog

Further to the last post I would be interested in you speaking to the numerous times Jesus rebukes his mother and the spiritual lessons found therein.

Start with Luke 8:9 why so? put all three records together to work out what was going on in Jesus' ministry and how it was logical that Mary and the Lord's brothers would struggle to follow the Lord at that time. Were they always on the outer?

F2F

Here is what this all comes down to F2F.............If you want to believe the false teachings of your Protestant men, I don't care. That is on you and not me.

If you want to look at Luke 8:19 (you have 8:9, I assume you mean 8:19) in a bubble and not square it with the rest of Scripture and the language it was written in compared to what it was translated from.......that's on you. Not me.

Looking at Peter in a bubble makes it clear to me that he was Satan (Matthew 16:23). Nothing you can say will change my mind. I mean after all, Jesus said he was.

 

[Marymog]

Just a fact.

So you believe God would punish you for believing Mary had children? Interesting, I'd like to unpack that religious model! Maybe @Marymog can help you!

So what! Mary had 5 children, no wait, she had 2 or was it 7? What does it matter?


F2F

What does it matter?

Well, Truth matters to me and @Sigma
Just because it doesn't matter to YOU doesn't mean it doesn't matter to us!!


Soooo you believe that God WOULDN'T punish you for not speaking the truth??????

Curious Mary

 

[Marymog]

Absolutely done, Curious Mary!

Denominal or men's doctrine and traditions are useless and only adds to the burdens of man seeking God.
The thing is most don't take it out in front of all men to beat like a dusty rug by the many repeat threads. Repetation can be a learning experience or it can really turn one against the hearing of.

I don't understand what you are saying LAMB! Help me out here.

You say that you are "Absolutely done" with seeing denominational OR men's doctrine because they "useless and only adds to the burdens of man seeking God". Are you a (hu)man? You clearly have your own doctrines* that you follow....Right? Sooooo why are YOUR doctrines ok but everyone else's doctrines "useless" and add burdens on those that are seeking God? Please explain your logic....

Also, Scripture says hold fast to your traditions. You are saying they are useless. Should I adhere to YOUR teaching or the teachings of Scripture?

Also, if repeating the Truth of Scripture makes someone turn "against the hearing of" it........that is their problem, not Gods.

Since @Pearl "likes" your post maybe she can help you out with some of your answers to my questions. I look forward to either of you explaining to me why you think that traditions are useless....when Scripture tells us to adhere to them.

Patient Mary

 

[L.A.M.B.]

I don't understand what you are saying LAMB! Help me out here.

You say that you are "Absolutely done" with seeing denominational OR men's doctrine because they "useless and only adds to the burdens of man seeking God". Are you a (hu)man? You clearly have your own doctrines* that you follow....Right? Sooooo why are YOUR doctrines ok but everyone else's doctrines "useless" and add burdens on those that are seeking God? Please explain your logic....

Also, Scripture says hold fast to your traditions. You are saying they are useless. Should I adhere to YOUR teaching or the teachings of Scripture?

Also, if repeating the Truth of Scripture makes someone turn "against the hearing of" it........that is their problem, not Gods.

Since @Pearl "likes" your post maybe she can help you out with some of your answers to my questions. I look forward to either of you explaining to me why you think that traditions are useless....when Scripture tells us to adhere to them.

Patient Mary

Not happening, so please don't hold your breath.
Believe what you will, hold to man's or denominal doctrine outside of the word of God, that's on you!

 

[Pearl]

First delivery of Mary, while a virgin:
…Jesus: Nazarene
….Born; Jerusalem, Judah

Shouldn't that be Bethlehem.

 

[Marymog]

Sigma couldn't provide an answer to why its an important teaching. I wonder if you are able to provide one spiritual principle from your belief?
Let's see how you go.
F2F

@Sigma did provide you an answer....You just chose to reject it because it doesn't match up with what your men have taught you.