A heretical teaching dismantled with the help of Paul the Evangelist.
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In my thread Were they Jesus's siblings?, I've shown that James in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3;apostle James of Alphaeus; James the Less; James the Just; James the bishop of Jerusalem; James "the brother of the Lord;" and the author of the Epistle of James were the same person, and the son of Joseph's brother, Alphaeus, and his wife Mary of Cleophas (Clopas/Alpaheus), and thus he and his siblings Simon, Joseph, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) were Jesus's cousins.
Speaking the Truth on this subject is a spiritual benefit, because one would be obedient to God, as He commands us not to lie. It'd be a lie to say Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) were Jesus's siblings when they weren't as I've proven. It'd also be prideful if one knew it's a lie and persisted to claim that lie is truth anyway, so one would be humble (another spiritual benefit) to not do that.
What spiritual benefit is there in your trying to defend your belief that Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) were Jesus's siblings?
Truthnightmare
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I will have to check it out, but I’m in opposition to that theory. For times sake I will provide the following.
Companion Bible appendix 182
“The natural meaning of the term "His brethren", in the Scripture record, would never have been challenged, but for the desire, when corruption crept into the churches (Acts 20:29, 30), of raising Mary from the position of "handmaid of the Lord" (Luke 1:38) to the exalted one of Theotokos, mother of God, whence it was an easy step to investing her with divine honors, as being herself a goddess. And thus the way was cleared for identifying her with the great goddess of Paganism, who is the mother of a divine son, and who is yet a virgin, a deity best known by the appellation she bore in Egypt, Isis, the mother of Horus.
So it was put forth that Mary had no children other than the Lord, and that His brethren and sisters were either the children of Joseph by a former wife, or the Lord's cousins, the children of Mary, the wife of Cleophas. Those who maintained the former opinion asserted that Joseph was an old man when he married Mary. Of this there is not the least hint in the Gospel records. If he had older children, the right of the Lord Jesus to the throne of David would be invalidated, for the two genealogies in Matt. 1 and Luke 3 show that the legal rights were united in Joseph and Mary (Ap. 99).
With reference to Jerome's "cousin" theory, it may be stated that the word "brother" is used in Scripture, (1) in the sense of blood-relationship, as children of the same parent or parents; (2) in the wider sense of descent from a common ancestor, e.g. Acts 7:23, 25, where Abraham is the forefather; (3) in a still wider signification of fellow-man (Matt. 7:3-5; 18:15); (4) to express spiritual relationship (Matt. 23:8; 28:10; Acts 9:17; Rom. 8:29; Heb. 2:11). In the passages where His brethren are referred to, viz. Matt. 12:46, 47; 13:55; Mark 3:31; Luke 8:19; John 7:3, 5, 10; Acts 1:14; 1Cor 9:5; Gal. 1:19, only the first meaning can apply.
Had they been cousins, the term would have been sungenes which is used in Mark 6:4; Luke 1:36, 58; 2:44; 14:12; 21:16; John 18:26; Acts 10:24; Rom. 9:3; 16:7, 11, 21, and is translated "kin", "kinsman" or "kinsfolk", except in Luke 1:36, 58, where it is rendered "cousin". The Scriptures distinguish "kinsman" from "brother"; see Luke 14:12; 21:16. Only in Rom. 9:3 are the two words in apposition, and there "brother" is used in the sense of fellow-Israelite (No. 2). "Brother", therefore, when used in N.T. in any sense other than that of No. 2 or of No. 3, must be restricted to signification No. 1.
face2face
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Just a fact.
So you believe God would punish you for believing Mary had children? Interesting, I'd like to unpack that religious model! Maybe @Marymog can help you!
So what! Mary had 5 children, no wait, she had 2 or was it 7? What does it matter?
Good question.
The only spiritual benefit would be looking at "how" those siblings treated their brother, and the trials they experienced in coming to know their Messiah.
Luke 8 9 Now Jesus’ mother and brothers came to see him, but they were not able to get near him because of the crowd. 20 Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to see you.” 21 He replied, “My mother and brothers are those who hear God’s word and put it into practice.”
Jesus was quick - very quick to show his Spiritual brothers superseded his natural mother and brothers! Here Mary made another mistake along with her sons in thinking Jesus was out of his mind and they were mindful to take him home. You see Jesus' family was not in his inner circle and yet to become disciples of the Lord. It's a great journey for Mary and her sons and teach us all about the sword.... (and a sword will pierce through your own soul also), so that thoughts from many hearts may be revealed.”
Now if you could speak to to the text and its meaning then yes, we could find something of value to discuss - but your copy and paste posts are useless and offer no spiritual worth whatsoever.
Please don't respond with the same regurgitated posts...try actually thinking about the Lords words - see how he rebukes his mother and his brothers who up until that time had not converted to the true Gospel.
F2F
face2face
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@Sigma @Marymog
Further to the last post I would be interested in you speaking to the numerous times Jesus rebukes his mother and the spiritual lessons found therein.
Start with Luke 8:9 why so? put all three records together to work out what was going on in Jesus' ministry and how it was logical that Mary and the Lord's brothers would struggle to follow the Lord at that time. Were they always on the outer?
F2F
Further to the last post I would be interested in you speaking to the numerous times Jesus rebukes his mother and the spiritual lessons found therein.
Start with Luke 8:9 why so? put all three records together to work out what was going on in Jesus' ministry and how it was logical that Mary and the Lord's brothers would struggle to follow the Lord at that time. Were they always on the outer?
F2F
I said God commands us not to lie, so obedience to Him by speaking the Truth on this matter would be a spiritual benefit. Humility is another spiritual benefit, by accepting the evidence that proves Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) were the sons of Jesus's mother's spouse's brother, Alphaeus, and his wife Mary of Alphaeus (Clopas/Cleophas), and acknowledging error if one believed otherwise prior to. Anyway, I provided a couple examples of spiritual benefits like you asked for.
If they were Jesus's siblings, they wouldn't have been full siblings, but rather half-siblings, as they wouldn't have shared Joseph as a father. However, again, as I said in post #15:
"The flaw in your believing James of the four "siblings" of Jesus in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 and apostle James in Gal. 1:19 were the same person is that the latter was one of the Twelve, which means that he could've only been either James of Zebedee or James of Alphaeus, and neither of them were a son of Joseph and Mary.
However, you are right that the James in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 and apostle James in Gal. 1:19 were the same person. I've provided evidence which confirms that, as well as evidence that shows he was the apostle James of Alphaeus, and that he and his three siblings were the sons of Jesus's mother's spouse's brother, Alphaeus, and his wife Mary of Cleophas (Clopas/Alphaeus), and thus were Jesus's cousins, not siblings.
I have yet to receive an answer from you to my question in post #12 as well.
face2face
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You mean your truth right?
Again this is your truth which you are yet to provide one spiritual principle - not one lesson you have shown from all your posts. It's getting rather embarrassing for you I must say.
Still beating that dead horse Sigma!
Nothing
...same same same!I think this is what Paul means when he said there would be those who are clouds without water. Your dirty and you need a wash!
F2F
I wouldn't have to if you either attempted to refute it or admit you can't. Until you do one or the other, here it is again:
If they were Jesus's siblings, they wouldn't have been full siblings, but rather half-siblings, as they wouldn't have shared Joseph as a father. However, again, as I said in post #15:
"The flaw in your believing James of the four "siblings" of Jesus in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 and apostle James in Gal. 1:19 were the same person is that the latter was one of the Twelve, which means that he could've only been either James of Zebedee or James of Alphaeus, and neither of them were a son of Joseph and Mary.
However, you are right that the James in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 and apostle James in Gal. 1:19 were the same person. I've provided evidence which confirms that, as well as evidence that shows he was the apostle James of Alphaeus, and that he and his three siblings were the sons of Jesus's mother's spouse's brother, Alphaeus, and his wife Mary of Cleophas (Clopas/Alphaeus), and thus were Jesus's cousins, not siblings.
I have yet to receive an answer from you to my question in post #12 as well.
face2face
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I ask you again...what is the lesson of faith in this above post?
Where is the spiritual substance?
Why is this so important to you?
The questions are adding up!
F2F
Truthnightmare
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I've answered you and even if you think I haven't, that doesn't change whether you can or can't refute the following, and if you don't in your next reply, then know that will be an admittance that you can't:
If they were Jesus's siblings, they wouldn't have been full siblings, but rather half-siblings, as they wouldn't have shared Joseph as a father. However, again, as I said in post #15:
"The flaw in your believing James of the four "siblings" of Jesus in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 and apostle James in Gal. 1:19 were the same person is that the latter was one of the Twelve, which means that he could've only been either James of Zebedee or James of Alphaeus, and neither of them were a son of Joseph and Mary.
However, you are right that the James in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 and apostle James in Gal. 1:19 were the same person. I've provided evidence which confirms that, as well as evidence that shows he was the apostle James of Alphaeus, and that he and his three siblings were the sons of Jesus's mother's spouse's brother, Alphaeus, and his wife Mary of Cleophas (Clopas/Alphaeus), and thus were Jesus's cousins, not siblings.
I have yet to receive an answer from you to my question in post #12 as well.
face2face
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It's not that I think that you havn't it's clear for anyone reading these posts to see you have not provided one, not one spiritual benefit, principle or substance to why your points should be believed upon.
Copy & Paste!
Copy and Paste
Copy and Paste
Copy and Paste.
I get what you are trying to do and prove, what I dont get is why! Not once have you said "this is the reason why this truth is so important"....not once.
Maybe you get a kick out of proving facts...like "Paul was a tent maker!", now why is this so important - I do believe it is important and believe there are lessons we can learn from his chosen profession but you dont show any of this!
"If they were Jesus's siblings, they wouldn't have been full siblings, but rather half-siblings, as they wouldn't have shared Joseph as a father. However, again, as I said in post #15:"
Correct - half siblings and ....so what?
Mary + Jospeh = children
Mary + God = Jesus
Same Mother different fathers!
So? I'm happy to accept this as truth but what do you prove from it?
Prove away
Answer here________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
F2F
Truthnightmare
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Psalms 69:8
I am become a stranger unto my brethren, and an alien unto my mother's children
Again..
The Lord is called mary's "firstborn" (Matt. 1:25 and Luke 2:7), and the natural inference is that Mary had other children. The word prototokos is used only in these two passages and in Rom. 8:29; Col. 1:15, 18; Heb. 1:6; 11:28; 12:23 (pl.); Rev. 1:5, so that the meaning is easily ascertained. Had He been her only son, the word would have been monogenes, which occurs in Luke 7:12; 8:42; 9:38, of human parentage; and of the Lord, as the only begotten of the Father, in John 1:14, 18; 3:16, 18; 1John 4;9. In Heb. 11:17 it is used of Isaac, Abraham's only son according to the promise.
In Psalm 69, a Psalm with many predictive allusions to the Lord's earthly life (see Note on Title), verse 8 reads, "I am become a stranger unto my brethren, and an alien unto my mother's children". The Gospel history records His brethren in association with His mother. After the miracle at Cana, which they probably witnessed, we are told that "He went down to Capernaum, He, and His mother, and His brethren, and His disciples" (John 2:12).
He went down to Capernaum, He, and His mother, and His brethren, and His disciples" (John 2:12).
A clear distinction in regards to family and disciples that can be called brethren.
I am become a stranger unto my brethren, and an alien unto my mother's children
Again..
The Lord is called mary's "firstborn" (Matt. 1:25 and Luke 2:7), and the natural inference is that Mary had other children. The word prototokos is used only in these two passages and in Rom. 8:29; Col. 1:15, 18; Heb. 1:6; 11:28; 12:23 (pl.); Rev. 1:5, so that the meaning is easily ascertained. Had He been her only son, the word would have been monogenes, which occurs in Luke 7:12; 8:42; 9:38, of human parentage; and of the Lord, as the only begotten of the Father, in John 1:14, 18; 3:16, 18; 1John 4;9. In Heb. 11:17 it is used of Isaac, Abraham's only son according to the promise.
In Psalm 69, a Psalm with many predictive allusions to the Lord's earthly life (see Note on Title), verse 8 reads, "I am become a stranger unto my brethren, and an alien unto my mother's children". The Gospel history records His brethren in association with His mother. After the miracle at Cana, which they probably witnessed, we are told that "He went down to Capernaum, He, and His mother, and His brethren, and His disciples" (John 2:12).
He went down to Capernaum, He, and His mother, and His brethren, and His disciples" (John 2:12).
A clear distinction in regards to family and disciples that can be called brethren.
Last edited:
Truthnightmare
Well-Known Member
No need to wait…
The Lord is called mary's "firstborn" (Matt. 1:25 and Luke 2:7), and the natural inference is that Mary had other children. The word prototokos is used only in these two passages and in Rom. 8:29; Col. 1:15, 18; Heb. 1:6; 11:28; 12:23 (pl.); Rev. 1:5, so that the meaning is easily ascertained. Had He been her only son, the word would have been monogenes, which occurs in Luke 7:12; 8:42; 9:38, of human parentage; and of the Lord, as the only begotten of the Father, in John 1:14, 18; 3:16, 18; 1John 4;9. In Heb. 11:17 it is used of Isaac, Abraham's only son according to the promise.
In Psalm 69, a Psalm with many predictive allusions to the Lord's earthly life (see Note on Title), verse 8 reads, "I am become a stranger unto my brethren, and an alien unto my mother's children". The Gospel history records His brethren in association with His mother. After the miracle at Cana, which they probably witnessed, we are told that "He went down to Capernaum, He, and His mother, and His brethren, and His disciples" (John 2:12).
He went down to Capernaum, He, and His mother, and His brethren, and His disciples" (John 2:12).
A clear distinction in regards to family and disciples that can be called brethren.
face2face
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Have you noticed Psalm 69:11
I adopted sackcloth as my garment— and became a mockery for them.
And when his family heard it, they went out to seize him, for they were saying, “He is out of his mind.” Mark 3:21
And his mother and his brothers came, and standing outside they sent to him and called him.Mark 3:31
Yes, includes Mary and her sons! @Sigma
Jesus not only had he become a mockery by the people but also in his own family!
No wonder he rebuked them as he did
F2F
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