A God of Hate

[ChristinaL]

Are you saying there was no distinction between singular and plural, when this text was written?

I am not quite sure that is the right way to put it. The whole concept of one God after all doesnt have one singular meaning. Trinity deniers think God is one singular person. But God is three distinct persons united as one in nature and substance. Like a family.

 

[Wick Stick]

Monotheism (“I am your God”) vs. polytheism (”I am your gods”).

The statement ”I am your gods” is never made - by YHWH or anyone else - in scripture.

Wouldn’t you agree?

No I don't agree.

Also, "I AM your gods" does not imply polytheism when the parallel statement is "I AM one." You never even tried to reconcile those two, did you?

The answer is NOT "the trinity."

 

[Matthias]

No I don't agree.

Then you should be able to direct my attention to any passage of scripture where it is said, by anyone, using any English translation of your choosing. Please do, if you’re able to.

Also, "I AM your gods" does not imply polytheism when the parallel statement is "I AM one."

“Gods” -> plural -> more than one god -> polytheism.

“God” -> singular -> only one God -> monotheism.

”I am your gods” -> bad grammar.

”I am your God.” - > good grammar.

You never even tried to reconcile those two, did you?

No. I’m a monotheist.

The answer is NOT "the trinity."

Great. What is the answer?

 

[The Learner]

interesting

 

[Matthias]

The Messiah’s God (Heb. elohim / Gk. theos) is one singular person - the Father.

The Messiah himself is a strict Jewish monotheist.

 

[Matthias]

“Dagon our god (Heb. elohim)” (1 Samuel 5:7).

Dagon is the god (elohim - plural in form, singular in meaning) of the Philistines, not the gods (elohim - plural in form, plural in meaning) of the Philistines.

 

[gpresdo]

“Dagon our god (Heb. elohim)” (1 Samuel 5:7).

Dagon is the god (elohim - plural in form, singular in meaning) of the Philistines, not the gods (elohim - plural in form, plural in meaning) of the Philistines.

Using Gods...plural...in references to scriptural discussions......we must be very careful...not to infer, suggest or in any way lead thinking that there is more than one God.

God manifest Himself in many ways. We are to conclude that....that is not suggesting more than one god .....but consider it to be much like a man changing clothes...a different appearance...not another person.

 

[gpresdo]

Do you mean, every proton and neutron in my desk, and in my hair and in my bowl of chili, are a part of God? I'm not being facetious here. I actually think you're on the right path. Everything in the universe is made up of energy. Every single thing. Without energy, there's nothing. Energy is life, God is life. Where does the world end and God begin? Or is that question based on an incorrect assumption?

ALL that too.

 

[gpresdo]

One new bible edition...forgot which.....says gods..plural ....several times.

 

[Matthias]

Using Gods...plural...in references to scriptural discussions......we must be very careful...not to infer, suggest or in any way lead thinking that there is more than one God.

God manifest Himself in many ways. We are to conclude that....that is not suggesting more than one god .....but consider it to be much like a man changing clothes...a different appearance...not another person.

Modalism?

 

[Matthias]

One new bible edition...forgot which.....says gods..plural ....several times.

I hope you’ll be able to recall the name of the edition. If you do, please let us know. I haven’t heard of one doing it (in reference to the deity of Israel) but if there is it will soon receive major backlash.

 

[Matthias]

“… against all the gods of Egypt” (Exodus 12:12)

This verse illustrates the proper translation of elohim when more than one deity is being referred to. The Egyptians had many gods (Heb. elohim, plural in form, plural in meaning), not only one god (Heb. elohim, plural in form, singular in meaning). The Egyptians were polytheists, not monotheists, in the days of Moses.

When elohim is plural in meaning it is always translated as plural (“gods”) in English. When singular in meaning it is always translated as singular (”God” or ”god” or “goddess”) in English.

YHWH is the God (singular) of Israel, not the gods (plural) of Israel.

 

[Matthias]

Elohim.

Is it ever plural in the OT? Seldom.

Is it ever singular in the OT? Almost always.

Is it ever plural in form in the OT? Always.

Is it ever plural in meaning when used in reference to YHWH? No. Never.

Is it ever singular when used in reference to YHWH? Yes. Always.

Is it the only Hebrew word that works this way? No. There are several Hebrew words that are always plural in form and either plural or singular in meaning. Dr. Menham Mansoor tells us in his popular textbook that they are known as dual number, and identifies six of them.

”2. Nouns with Plural Form Only

The following nouns are found in the plural form only. They are plural in form but may be singular or plural in meaning.”

(Menahem Mansoor, Biblical Hebrew, Vol. 1, p. 125)

The six are the Hebrew words for: God (elohim), mercy, life, face, water and sky / heaven.

Be careful when you hear someone say that elohim is plural. That’s misleading. What they should say is that it is “plural in form” -> which is true, but not necessarily the same as plural in meaning.

***

All languages have their quirks. An English analogy.

“I saw the deer on my front lawn again last night.”

How many deer did I see?

One? (Singular.) From the statement, that’s possible; but incorrect.

Nine. (Plural.) That’s the number actually seen.

We can’t assume that deer is always singular or always plural in meaning.

”I saw the deer on my front lawn again last night. She ran when the beam from the headlights on my car shone upon her.” - singular

”I saw the deer on my front lawn again last night. They ran when the beam from the headlights on my car shone upon them. There were nine of them; all does.” - plural

***

We can be absolutely certain that the elohim of Israel is singular. When the Israelites turned from him to any other elohim they were practicing idolatry.

Blessed be the God (Gk. theos, Heb. elohim; singular) of Israel -> a commendable expression of praise for the one and only true God.

Blessed be the gods (Gk. theoi, Heb. elohim; plural) of Israel -> a shameful expression of praise for idols.

 

[Matthias]

I was thinking about the title of this thread -> “A God of Hate”

Not “A Gods of Hate” or even “The Gods of Hate”.

The atheist understood that he was speaking specifically, particularly, intentionally about (and against) only one God (singular), not multiple gods (plural). He wasn’t at all vague about his intended target. He was verbally railing against the God of the Bible, not the gods of paganism mentioned in the Bible.

Who would respond defensively to an atheist volley fired against the gods? Pagans, if anyone.

And yet there is still confusion and misunderstanding expressed in this thread about the meaning of a common Hebrew word, a title, used in the Hebrew Bible / Old Testament in reference to the one as well as to many. This speaks to a problem in biblical education.

 

[The Learner]

rth

 

[gpresdo]

Modalism?

Not hardly!!!

 

[gpresdo]

I hope you’ll be able to recall the name of the edition. If you do, please let us know. I haven’t heard of one doing it (in reference to the deity of Israel) but if there is it will soon receive major backlash.

I think it may be the NIV But, in any event I do not plan to waste time on it other than to alert many to look for it. Most new age religion editions of the Bible have miss-leadings in them.

 

[Matthias]

Not hardly!!!

Then what?

 

[Matthias]

I think it may be the NIV …

Thanks. I haven’t seen a new edition of the NIV but I’ll keep an eye out for it. If it does render elohim as “Gods” when referring to the God of Israel it will be highly publicized and heavily criticized by Hebrew linguists and by monotheists. It would be scandalous, and that is putting it mildly.

YHWH is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Israel; not the Gods of Abraham, Isaac and Israel.

But, in any event I do not plan to waste time on it other than to alert many to look for it. Most new age religion editions of the Bible have miss-leadings in them.

 

[gpresdo]

Then what?

The words speak for themselves.