5 of the more obvious passages about losing salvation

[StanJ]

Enoch walked with God, and he was not, for God took him. - Genesis 5:24

Where?

 

[Barrd]

Where?

Why, to the same place where Elijah was taken.

 

[StanJ]

Why, to the same place where Elijah was taken.

I was actually asking justaname if he knew, but OK WHERE is that?

 

[Barrd]

I was actually asking justaname if he knew, but OK WHERE is that?

I guess you missed it.

2Ki 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

Elijah was taken into heaven.

And where is Moses?

Jud 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

Hmm. Michael the archangel, disputing with the devil over the body of Moses?? Interesting.

If a denizen of Heaven thought Moses' body was important enough to dispute with the devil over, can you doubt that he is also in heaven?

 

[StanJ]

I guess you missed it.

2Ki 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

Elijah was taken into heaven.

And where is Moses?

Jud 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

Hmm. Michael the archangel, disputing with the devil over the body of Moses?? Interesting.

If a denizen of Heaven thought Moses' body was important enough to dispute with the devil over, can you doubt that he is also in heaven?

So you think Jesus contradicted what Jeremiah wrote?

Heaven in that context was the sky ABOVE the clouds, but NOT where he ended up, because Elisha could not see where he ended up. The Bible also does not say where Enoch ended up, nor where Moses' body ended up, although Deut 34:5-6 does tell us that Moses died and was buried by God. Obviously God had the LAST word.

Again, I don't use my human reasoning, I believe what the Bible states. Why you don't in the case of Moses, despite clear scripture that states what happened, is beyond my ability to comprehend.

 

[Barrd]

So you think Jesus contradicted what Jeremiah wrote?

Heaven in that context was the sky ABOVE the clouds, but NOT where he ended up, because Elisha could not see where he ended up. The Bible also does not say where Enoch ended up, nor where Moses' body ended up, although Deut 34:5-6 does tell us that Moses died and was buried by God. Obviously God had the LAST word.

Again, I don't use my human reasoning, I believe what the Bible states. Why you don't in the case of Moses, despite clear scripture that states what happened, is beyond my ability to comprehend.

So, what does the Bible state?

Again, just for you, my dear brother:


Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

So, we know that, where ever Jesus was, the thief would be with Him. There seems to be some confusion about where "Paradise" is.

2Co 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
2Co 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)
2Co 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Hmm. Okay, Paul...were you caught up to the third Heaven, or were you caught up to Paradise?
Or could Heaven and Paradise just be two words for the same place?

Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Where, exactly, is the Tree of Life?

Php 1:21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
Php 1:22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.
Php 1:23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

2Co 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
2Co 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Paul was confident that, when he died, he would be with the Lord Jesus Christ. But where is Jesus?

Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God

Which takes us back to the question, where is God?

Stan, you are basing your hypothesis on one passage of scripture, in which Jesus tells a parable.

So, what is the conclusion of the matter?
It seems pretty clear that Paradise is Heaven, God's home.

 

[Jun2u]

I'm going to lay down some fundamental principles again. The fundamental principle is that the whole Bible is the Gospel! That is an absolute principle and until we can find the Gospel message in any part of the Bible, we have not come to the whole truth. We can read these accounts particularly of the Old Testament that this king did that and this man did the other thing and so on. We can gain morality and gain moral principles from that that if we rebel against God disaster follows and so on.

But that is not really getting into the gospel until we get to the third dimension. The historical account in there is the first, the morality we find in there is the second, and until we get to see the spiritual meaning of some aspect of the gospel we really have not struck pay dirt. And this is based on a very fundamental principle that God gave Himself that is, He spoke in parables and without a parable He did not speak. Mr 4:34.

While the Bible is a book of history once in a while we find just a plain story like the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16, which is a story and not a historical event. Or, we read about the sheep on the right hand and the goat on the left of Matthew 25, that's a story and not a historical event, it won't take place just like that. We have to look at that story and see that as a parable and an earthly story and find the heavenly meaning that is within it.

God could have given us volumes and volumes of all the various possibilities that took place but He chose to write these particular ones from Genesis to Revelation, in order to enhance and to teach us some aspect of the gospel message. However, God did not put it here so it can easily be understood. We read: “It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honor of kings is to search out a matter”.
This is a fundamental principle. As we look at passages we have to search and find the gospel.

Two other things that are very important is we have to let the Bible be the Authority that allow us to say this means this, or that means that. When we look at David for example and say that David is a type of Christ we have lots of Bible authority, lots of places that we can see David as the shepherd king a picture of the Lord Jesus Christ. If we decided he is a picture of Satan for example, then we don't have biblical authority.

Nebuchadnezzar, for example, again and again, every single time is always a picture of Satan. He ruled over Babylon just as Babylon is always the picture of the dominion of Satan, and so we are on solid ground whenever we see Nebuchadnezzar, the Chaldeans, or the Babylonians we know we are talking about Satan's kingdom or about Satan himself.

The second thing we must be careful about and that is, at the conclusions we come to as we work through and find the spiritual reality that's in the passage must be in harmony with the plain teaching of the Bible.

For example, if we came to a conclusion that our salvation finally is based upon our work in some way because that seems to be what that passage is teaching, then we know we've done our homework wrongly, because we've got to come to our conclusion that our salvation is grace alone has to be in complete harmony, and if we follow those principles we don't get into trouble.

Here is a classic example of a spiritual discernment. When Jesus was .announced, how was He announced? Behold, Jesus the Savior of the world! Is that the way He was announced by John the Baptist? The answer is no. He was announced as, Behold, the Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world! Was Jesus a Lamb? No, a lamb is an animal. And right away you scratch your head, but immediately you do what you're suppose to do, so you open your Bible and find that a lamb had to do with sacrifices, it had to do with Passover, it had to do with the fact of the shed blood of Christ. He would be the spiritually the lamb. Immediately we see, Behold, the one who is to sacrifice Himself for the sins of the world, but we've had to go through a metaphorical statement.

The Bible never said that John the Baptist said, Behold, metaphorically, Christ is the Lamb or Behold, I speak in a parable, Christ is the Lamb. He just came right out with it no intimation at all that he was speaking metaphorically, but the fact is that when we look at it carefully following the Bible rules, we know that he was speaking metaphorically, that Jesus was not a lamb but the one who would be the sacrifice therefore He was the lamb even though physically He was not a lamb. Now that whole principle holds throughout the whole Bible.

Likewise, following the rules the Bible has set forth above, we can rest assured and metaphorically speaking that Paradise is synonymous with Heaven according to Lu 23:43 and Re 2:7 and many other scriptures which stipulate that the Father is in Heaven.

To God Be The Glory

 

[Zachary]

Jun2u wrote:
... we've got to come to our conclusion that our salvation is grace alone ...

Sorry, the NT teaches:
God's grace > allows belief/faith > demands trust > demands obedience > finally salvation

Those who are God's elect from before the foundation of the world ...
actually heed the many warnings and become fully sanctified unto salvation,
thereby following the above plan.

That's what the many warnings are for ... they are for God's elect (whoever they are).

 

[ATP]

Jun2u wrote:
... we've got to come to our conclusion that our salvation is grace alone ...

Sorry, the NT teaches:
God's grace > allows belief/faith > demands trust > demands obedience > finally salvation

Those who are God's elect from before the foundation of the world ...
actually heed the many warnings and become fully sanctified unto salvation,
thereby following the above plan.

That's what the many warnings are for ... they are for God's elect (whoever they are).

And belief/faith only comes once Zach, not even death will separate the elect from God Rom 8:38, Rev 20:14. If works did not save you, then works cannot keep you. Isa 64:6 NIV. Kind of like the old man who believed and then died on his death bed. The only work he did was believe and die.

Eph 2:8-9 NIV For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.

1 Peter 1:3-5 NIV Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade. This inheritance is kept in heaven for you, 5who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

 

[ATP]

Where in the NT does it say the Spirit of the Lord does this after resurrection?

1 Sam 16:14 NIV Now the Spirit of the Lord had departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the Lord tormented him.

 

[Jun2u]

Jun2u wrote:
... we've got to come to our conclusion that our salvation is grace alone ...

Sorry, the NT teaches:
God's grace > allows belief/faith > demands trust > demands obedience > finally salvation

Your kind of salvation is man made because it negates that God must draw a person for him to become saved (Jo 6:44). In other words, if God does not intervene into the life of an individual that person will never become saved.

Look carefully at the methodology and sequence you believe a person should be saved. This type of salvation has no provision for those that lack the capacity to understand the Gospel!

For instance, what about babies, children and adults who have minds like a child. Are they lost and have no hope forever because they cannot comprehend the methodology by which you understand salvation? God forbid!

Sorry, the NT does not teach what you've stated and it's alien to the Bible. I'm afraid it is your understanding that is very faulty.

To God Be The Glory

 

[StanJ]

So, what does the Bible state?

Again, just for you, my dear brother:


Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

So, we know that, where ever Jesus was, the thief would be with Him. There seems to be some confusion about where "Paradise" is.

2Co 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
2Co 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)
2Co 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Hmm. Okay, Paul...were you caught up to the third Heaven, or were you caught up to Paradise?
Or could Heaven and Paradise just be two words for the same place?

Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Where, exactly, is the Tree of Life?

Php 1:21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
Php 1:22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.
Php 1:23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

2Co 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
2Co 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Paul was confident that, when he died, he would be with the Lord Jesus Christ. But where is Jesus?

Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God

Which takes us back to the question, where is God?

Stan, you are basing your hypothesis on one passage of scripture, in which Jesus tells a parable.

So, what is the conclusion of the matter?
It seems pretty clear that Paradise is Heaven, God's home.

Barrd, I've gone over ALL this a few times now and am NOT inclined to repeat myself ad infinitum. As you don't seem to believe that scripture IS inspired, then there's not much use in debating what it does say with you, because you will just twist it to mean something you want it to mean, and not recognize the reality contained therein. Once you get there, I'm sure you'll have no ability to deny what you will perceive spiritually. The sad thing, is that you can do that now, but don't seem to want to.

 

[Barrd]

Your kind of salvation is man made because it negates that God must draw a person for him to become saved (Jo 6:44). In other words, if God does not intervene into the life of an individual that person will never become saved.

Look carefully at the methodology and sequence you believe a person should be saved. This type of salvation has no provision for those that lack the capacity to understand the Gospel!

For instance, what about babies, children and adults who have minds like a child. Are they lost and have no hope forever because they cannot comprehend the methodology by which you understand salvation? God forbid!

Sorry, the NT does not teach what you've stated and it's alien to the Bible. I'm afraid it is your understanding that is very faulty.

To God Be The Glory

We find ourselves in agreement on this one, Jun2u.

 

[Barrd]

Barrd, I've gone over ALL this a few times now and am NOT inclined to repeat myself ad infinitum. As you don't seem to believe that scripture IS inspired, then there's not much use in debating what it does say with you, because you will just twist it to mean something you want it to mean, and not recognize the reality contained therein. Once you get there, I'm sure you'll have no ability to deny what you will perceive spiritually. The sad thing, is that you can do that now, but don't seem to want to.

Those scriptures I posted are there, my friend, I didn't make them up.
Nor do I recall you dealing with them.
Did I miss it?

 

[StanJ]

Those scriptures I posted are there, my friend, I didn't make them up.
Nor do I recall you dealing with them.
Did I miss it?

Didn't say you did, I said I've dealt with them in my posts already to this point and you still bring up the same issues.
Your lack or recall is also not something I care to constantly address. Just go back from here and you see them all.

 

[Barrd]

Didn't say you did, I said I've dealt with them in my posts already to this point and you still bring up the same issues.
Your lack or recall is also not something I care to constantly address. Just go back from here and you see them all.

To be quite honest with you, Stan, I honestly do not care enough to go back through all of your posts to find the ones you are talking about.
I am quite convinced that the tale of Lazarus and the rich man is a parable, and that paradise and heaven are one and the same place.
Since this is not a matter which affects my salvation, or yours, I'm not going to get all upset because we disagree.

 

[StanJ]

To be quite honest with you, Stan, I honestly do not care enough to go back through all of your posts to find the ones you are talking about.
I am quite convinced that the tale of Lazarus and the rich man is a parable, and that paradise and heaven are one and the same place.
Since this is not a matter which affects my salvation, or yours, I'm not going to get all upset because we disagree.

Good, as I expect all here to be honest, despite the fact that doesn't always happen. I get that you have convinced yourself, and never accepted what I said in response to your POV, which is another reason not to go backwards. Neither am I Barrd. I've gotten very used to people not agreeing with all I have to say. My four kids and two ex wives made that very clear in the past, but slowly they learn I knew what I was talking about.

 

[Barrd]

Good, as I expect all here to be honest, despite the fact that doesn't always happen. I get that you have convinced yourself, and never accepted what I said in response to your POV, which is another reason not to go backwards. Neither am I Barrd. I've gotten very used to people not agreeing with all I have to say. My four kids and two ex wives made that very clear in the past, but slowly they learn I knew what I was talking about.

LOL, I know what you mean, my friend. I never had an ex husband....the love of my life, as you know, was taken from his family when he was a young man by a drunk driver.

But I do have seven kids, and a whole tribe of grandkids and great great grandkids.

I don't even bother to say "I told you so" any more.
I just nod my head sadly when they tell me that they wish they had listened to me....

 

[StanJ]

LOL, I know what you mean, my friend. I never had an ex husband....the love of my life, as you know, was taken from his family when he was a young man by a drunk driver.

No, sorry, did not know this. It may be late, but my condolences.

 

[Barrd]

Good, as I expect all here to be honest, despite the fact that doesn't always happen. I get that you have convinced yourself, and never accepted what I said in response to your POV, which is another reason not to go backwards. Neither am I Barrd. I've gotten very used to people not agreeing with all I have to say. My four kids and two ex wives made that very clear in the past, but slowly they learn I knew what I was talking about.

Hun, I didn't, as you say "convince myself". The scriptures I posted for you played a very large part in convincing me.