5 of the more obvious passages about losing salvation

[FHII]

Aren't covered by grace. Correct!

I'm not sure if you are distorting what I said or not.

 

[ATP]

Eph 2:3 NIV All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath.

 

[Wormwood]

According to Paul, God's grace allows us to choose. It does not strip us of our choice and freedom. Rather, it gives us freedom from bondage to be married to another. We are not saved by our works, but our works are reflective of our choice to believe or disbelieve. Without grace, there is no choice. We are bound to the law of sin and death and the mind of the flesh cannot please God. By the Spirit, we have been given new life and a new opportunity to walk in grace and the power of the Spirit, putting to death the misdeeds of the body. Yet, we still have a choice...the Holy Spirit frees us to choose. Paul makes this abundantly clear that we have a choice and an obligation to walk in grace and in the power of the Spirit. This choice does not rob God of his glory. Rather, it is God's sovereign decree that men will be saved by faith. Faith is expressed in free-will choice to follow Christ or reject him. The notion that we lose the ability to choose or fall at a moment of cognitive resonance, is simply not taught in the NT. In fact, the idea that the soul is somehow insulated from the actions of the body is more of a result of Greek philosophy and Gnostic teaching than a Christian one.

 

[ATP]

According to Paul, God's grace allows us to choose. It does not strip us of our choice and freedom. Rather, it gives us freedom from bondage to be married to another. We are not saved by our works, but our works are reflective of our choice to believe or disbelieve. Without grace, there is no choice. We are bound to the law of sin and death and the mind of the flesh cannot please God. By the Spirit, we have been given new life and a new opportunity to walk in grace and the power of the Spirit, putting to death the misdeeds of the body. Yet, we still have a choice...the Holy Spirit frees us to choose. Paul makes this abundantly clear that we have a choice and an obligation to walk in grace and in the power of the Spirit. This choice does not rob God of his glory. Rather, it is God's sovereign decree that men will be saved by faith. Faith is expressed in free-will choice to follow Christ or reject him. The notion that we lose the ability to choose or fall at a moment of cognitive resonance, is simply not taught in the NT. In fact, the idea that the soul is somehow insulated from the actions of the body is more of a result of Greek philosophy and Gnostic teaching than a Christian one.

We've been adopted into a family...John 8:34-36 NIV, Rom 8:15-17 NIV, Rom 8:23 NIV, Rom 9:4 NIV, Gal 4:4-7 NIV, Gal 6:10 NIV, Eph 1:4-5 NIV, Eph 2:19 NIV, 1 Pet 5:9 NIV

Jesus died for past, present and future sins...Rom 4:7-8 NIV, Rom 6:10 NIV, Rom 8:38-39 ESV, 1 Cor 15:12-19 NIV, Col 2:13-15 NIV, Heb 7:23-25 NIV, Heb 7:27 NIV, Heb 9:12 NIV, Heb 9:24-28 NIV, Heb 10:10-12 NIV, 1 Pet 3:18 NIV

We belong to Christ...John 8:34-36 NIV, John 8:44 NIV, Rom 1:6 NIV, Rom 8:9-11 NIV, Rom 14:8 NIV, 2 Cor 10:7 NIV, Gal 2:12 NIV, Gal 3:29 NIV, Gal 5:24 NIV, Gal 6:10 NIV, Heb 10:38-39 NIV, 1 John 2:19 NIV, 1 John 5:12 NIV

We are written in the book of life forever...Luke 10:18-20 NIV, Phil 4:3 NIV, Heb 12:22-24 NIV, Rev 3:5 NIV, Rev 13:8 NIV, Rev 17:8 NIV, Rev 20:12-15 NIV, Rev 21:27 NIV

There is now no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus...Mark 16:16 NIV, John 3:18 NIV, John 5:28-29 NIV, John 8:11 NIV, John 16:11 NIV, Rom 3:6-8 NIV, Rom 5:16 NIV, Rom 8:1-2 NIV, Rom 8:34 ESV, Col 2:13-15 NIV, 2 Thess 2:11-12 NIV, 2 Pet 2:3 NIV, 1 John 3:21 NIV, Jude 1:4-5 NIV

Once we believe, we have eternal life...John 3:14-16 NIV, John 5:24 NIV, John 6:40 NIV, John 6:47 NIV, John 6:54 NIV, John 10:25-30 NIV, Acts 13:46-48 NIV, Rom 6:22-23 NIV, Eph 1:13-14 NIV, 1 Tim 1:15-16 NIV, Tit 1:1-3 NIV, Heb 9:12 NIV, 1 John 5:9-14 NIV

We are heirs to Christ...Acts 3:25 NIV, Rom 4:13-14 NIV, Rom 8:15-17 NIV, Gal 3:29 NIV, Gal 4:7 NIV, Eph 3:6 NIV, Tit 3:7 NIV, Heb 6:17 NIV, Heb 11:9 NIV

We have an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade...Dan 12:13 NIV, Matt 25:34 NIV, Acts 20:32 NIV, Gal 3:18 NIV, Gal 4:30-31 NIV, Eph 1:13-14 NIV, Eph 1:18 NIV, Col 1:12 NIV, Heb 9:15 NIV, 1 Peter 1:3-5 NIV

We are only justified once...Acts 13:39 NIV, Rom 3:24-28 NIV, Rom 4:2 NIV, Rom 4:25 NIV, Rom 5:9 NIV, Rom 5:16 NIV, Rom 8:30 NIV, Rom 8:33 ESV, Rom 10:9-10 NIV, 1 Cor 6:11 NIV, Gal 2:16-17 NIV, Gal 3:11 NIV, Gal 3:24 NIV, Gal 5:4 NIV, Tit 3:7 NIV

God will lose none of the elect...John 6:35-40 NIV, John 17:9-10 NIV, John 17:12 NIV, Rom 5:5 NIV

Nonbelievers are considered lost, not believers...Matt 18:12-14 NIV, Luke 19:9-10 NIV, John 10:25-30 NIV, 1 Cor 15:12-19 NIV, 1 Pet 2:24-25 NIV

Overcoming and being victorious is based on belief, not works...John 16:33 NIV, Acts 20:28 NIV, Rom 8:35 NIV, Rom 8:37 NIV, 1 Cor 15:54-57 NIV, 2 Cor 2:14 NIV, 1 Pet 2:24-25 NIV, 1 John 2:13-14 NIV, 1 John 4:4 NIV, 1 John 5:4-5 NIV, Rev 12:11 NIV

It's not our works that keep us saved, it's His...Isa 64:6 NIV, Matt 6:1 NIV, Matt 23:25-26 NIV, Matt 23:27-28 NIV, Luke 18:19 NIV, John 6:28-29 NIV, Rom 3:9-20 NIV, Rom 3:21-31 NIV, Rom 4:3-11 NIV, Rom 4:22-24 NIV, Rom 5:17-21 NIV, Rom 6:16-20 NIV, Rom 8:9-11 NIV, Rom 9:30-33 NIV, Rom 10:3-4 NIV, Rom 11:5-7 NIV, 1 Cor 1:30 NIV, 1 Cor 3:13-15 NIV, 1 Cor 8:1 NIV, 1 Cor 15:10-11 NIV, 2 Cor 1:9 NIV, 2 Cor 3:5 NIV, 2 Cor 5:15 NIV, Gal 1:6-7 NIV, Gal 2:21 NIV, Gal 3:1-5 NIV, Gal 3:6-7 NIV, Gal 4:9 NIV, Eph 2:7-9 NIV, Phil 1:9-11 NIV, Phil 2:12-13 NIV, Phil 3:8-11 NIV, 1 Tim 4:10 NIV, 2 Tim 1:9 NIV, Tit 3:5 NIV, Rev 15:4 NIV

We are sealed until the day of redemption...John 6:27 NIV, 1 Cor 9:2 NIV, 2 Cor 1:21-22 NIV, Eph 1:13-14 NIV, Eph 4:30 NIV, Rev 9:4 NIV

The seed of God that is in us is imperishable...Matt 13:20-23 NIV, Luke 8:11 NIV, 1 Cor 15:54-57 NIV, 1 Pet 1:23 NIV, 1 John 3:9 NIV

The truth will be in us forever...Eph 1:13-14 NIV, 2 John 1:2 NIV

And lastly, neither death nor life can separate us from the love of God...Rom 8:38-39 NIV, Rev 20:14 NIV.

 

[FHII]

Wormwood,

I really don't understand wherr you are coming from when you say, "God's grace allows us to choose. " Grace comes through faith (eph 2). If you don't have faith, you don't have grace. I don't see the question of choice in that equation. If anything c an be said about it, its that you don't have grace if you make the wrong choice.

I don't see the holy spirit giving you a choice either. The HS is the spirit of truth. Its not his job to give you a choice; he's here to give you truth. He may have done a few other things like getting Mary pregnant (he never asked her if she wanted to, by the way), but a choice wasn't one of them as far as I can remember.

Do we have a choice? Overall, no. God's Will will come to pass. Do we have choices? Sure. We can go gladly or kicking and screaming. BUT God's Will prevails.

 

[StanJ]

Wormwood,

I really don't understand wherr you are coming from when you say, "God's grace allows us to choose. " Grace comes through faith (eph 2). If you don't have faith, you don't have grace. I don't see the question of choice in that equation. If anything c an be said about it, its that you don't have grace if you make the wrong choice.

I don't see the holy spirit giving you a choice either. The HS is the spirit of truth. Its not his job to give you a choice; he's here to give you truth. He may have done a few other things like getting Mary pregnant (he never asked her if she wanted to, by the way), but a choice wasn't one of them as far as I can remember.

Do we have a choice? Overall, no. God's Will will come to pass. Do we have choices? Sure. We can go gladly or kicking and screaming. BUT God's Will prevails.

God's will prevails in terms of His creation and His people, not always in the case of those that reject Him.
the scriptures say "Every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord". That is factual based on full realization, not faith. Now we must exercise faith and believe, before we are forced to admit. The one who does the former receives Eternal Life, and the one who performs the latter receives Eternal Punishment/Separation from God.

 

[Zachary]

You forgot 1 Cor 6:11 NIV And that is what some of you were...we are only justified once Rom 10:9-10 NIV.

1 Cor 6:11 NIV And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Rom 10:9-10 NIV If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

You're missing a HUGE element of what is taught in the epistles!
Over and over again ... believers are WARNED to NOT return to what they once were!
Because the result is eternal death.

Would you like to explain to us ...
WHY does Paul tell the believers in Rome that SIN RESULTS IN ETERNAL DEATH.
He does this 3 TIMES in the span of 8 VERSES ... 6:16 thru 6:23.

 

[Wormwood]

ATP,
I dont think I disagree with anything you wrote (although I am sure I would disagree with the direction you are heading with those comments).

FHII,

I really don't understand wherr you are coming from when you say, "God's grace allows us to choose. " Grace comes through faith (eph 2). If you don't have faith, you don't have grace. I don't see the question of choice in that equation. If anything c an be said about it, its that you don't have grace if you make the wrong choice.
I don't see the holy spirit giving you a choice either. The HS is the spirit of truth. Its not his job to give you a choice; he's here to give you truth. He may have done a few other things like getting Mary pregnant (he never asked her if she wanted to, by the way), but a choice wasn't one of them as far as I can remember.
Do we have a choice? Overall, no. God's Will will come to pass. Do we have choices? Sure. We can go gladly or kicking and screaming. BUT God's Will prevails.

I do not see salvation as a single, solitary choice. It begins with a choice, yes (and some Arminians would argue that even that first choice is permitted by grace (prevenient grace or universal grace). A person chooses to embrace Christ and in that moment they are "saved." Yet the Christian life is a walk, run, fight. We choose to believe (believe in the NT is often a present participle, or ongoing action). We choose to grow. We choose to take up our cross daily. So, we receive grace when we walk in faith. When we receive that grace, we can grow in it, or not. For instance, a person receives grace from God as they study and immerse themselves in the Word of God. They can use that grace to continue to grow, or they can not use it. Grace is not irresistible. The Greek word for grace is "charis" which can be understood as a "gift" (in fact, the Greek word for "gift," charismata, comes from the same root). Gifts can be opened or they can be ignored. When we walk in faith, we receive grace. We can grow in grace (2 Peter 3:18) or fall from grace (Gal. 5:4). Grace gives us the ability to choose...it does not strip us of our choice. Grace gives us more opportunity and responsibility, not less. When we are no longer able to choose, then we are in a bad state, indeed (Heb. 6:4; Rom. 1:21; John 12:39-40, etc.).

 

[Zachary]

I do not see salvation as a single, solitary choice ... the Christian life is a walk, run, fight.

When Paul speaks of "the crown of righteousness" and "the crown of life"
and "the prize" at the end of his tiresome race ...
guess what? ... he is speaking of ETERNAL LIFE.

Very few in today's Laodicean churches understand this.
Many of today's pastors will never see heaven.

All of the wonderful promises are conditional.

 

[ATP]

You're missing a HUGE element of what is taught in the epistles!
Over and over again ... believers are WARNED to NOT return to what they once were!
Because the result is eternal death.

Would you like to explain to us ...
WHY does Paul tell the believers in Rome that SIN RESULTS IN ETERNAL DEATH.
He does this 3 TIMES in the span of 8 VERSES ... 6:16 thru 6:23.

Eternal death? Uh no, once we believe we have eternal LIFE. John 6:47 NIV.

 

[Wormwood]

“ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, ὁ πιστεύων ἔχει ζωὴν αἰώνιον.” (John 6:47, NA27)

The word pisteuon is a present participle. Participles are present actions that indicate an ongoing action and are often designated in the English language with the suffix, ing. Running, eating, jumping, believing. So, Jesus is saying, "Amen, Amen, I say to you (all), the believing one has life eternal." He is not saying, (as you are implying ATP) "the one who once believed has eternal life, regardless as to whether or not they currently believe." It is no different than if I said, "Those who run burn calories" (or, with a participle, "The running person burns calories."). I am NOT saying, "If you ran once ten years ago, you burn calories today as a result." No. The sentence itself implies an ongoing action and to suggest it is not is simply not grammatically (or in my opinion, theologically) accurate.

Moreover, "eternal life" is a quality of life, not merely a duration. Adam and Eve ate from the tree of life. Does that mean they live forever? Yes, as long as they eat from the tree of life. Are they "earning eternal life" by eating the fruit of the tree? No, the tree was provided for them and they did not have to work, till or plant to receive the fruit. If the tree of life is taken from them, they die (which is what happened). At this point, they had to begin working to live...tilling the ground. But this work did not result in eternal life, because that life was a gift and they had rejected that gift by seeking to become like God.

This is no different in the NT. Jesus and his cross is the tree of life. If you "remain in" Jesus then you are attached to the vine and by means of the cross (tree of life) you have eternal life. It is a full, unquenchable, everlasting, God-filled life. You cannot earn it...and suggesting a person must accept it and eat from it is not the same as saying they are working for it (as Calvinists would argue). Yet, if you sever yourself from Christ (like a branch cut from the vine) then you wither and die. It is not because the life Jesus gave you wasnt "eternal" as it most certainly is. It is that you ceased to draw from his life and remain in the one who possesses eternal, full, constant life. You cut yourself off from the tree of life by which you eat and may live. Eternal life isnt a punch card that you get punched with a momentary thought of acceptance of particular facts and then you get your "get out of hell" card stamped once for all. Eternal life is a person that we are called to "remain in" (John uses this word (meno) about 40x in John and 1 John). It makes no sense to tell someone to "remain in" Christ if they can do no other. Life is a person we fellowship with, not a card we get punched.

 

[StanJ]

Very few in today's Laodicean churches understand this.
Many of today's pastors will never see heaven.

NOBODY will ever see heaven...that is not the Christian's destination, just as Jesus said.

 

[mjrhealth]

NOBODY will ever see heaven...that is not the Christian's destination, just as Jesus said.

Odd, a lot of people have already being there???

So since we dont go to heaven does that mean we all go to hell??

 

[StanJ]

Odd, a lot of people have already being there???

So since we dont go to heaven does that mean we all go to hell??

I have no idea who you are referring to but Jesus clearly said in John 1:18;
No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.
Did Jesus lie?
Only those that don't have Jesus as their saviour go to hell.

 

[mjrhealth]

Adam and Eve did, Moses did even if from behind. Must be hard being a learned person. What about Enoch, walked with God and was not.

Or this bit from jesus Himself,

Mat_5:3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Mat_5:10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Mat_19:14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

Heaven is for those who believe.

 

[Jun2u]

I have no idea who you are referring to but Jesus clearly said in John 1:18;
No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.
Did Jesus lie?
Only those that don't have Jesus as their saviour go to hell.

No one has seen God, that is, in His Spirit Essence!

We've learned that Enoch walked with God, and he was not, for God took him (Ge 5:24).

Elijah, was in a chariot of fire and was taken into heaven with a whirlwind (Mt 17:2-3).

Moses was with Jesus at the Trnasfiguration as was Elijah. Where did Moses come from if not from heaven? And, there are many, many more who are in heaven.

Your last statement is false!

People go to hell because of their sins.

The wages of sin is death!

To God Be The Glory

 

[StanJ]

Adam and Eve did, Moses did even if from behind. Must be hard being a learned person. What about Enoch, walked with God and was not.

Or this bit from jesus Himself,

Mat_5:3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Mat_5:10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Mat_19:14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

Heaven is for those who believe.

You either accept and believe what Jesus said in John 1:18, and filter what the rest of the NT says through that, or you don't and cannot possibly get to the truth. FYI, the Kingdom of God/Heaven is NOT the same as heaven. A kingdom is a place where the King rules His people. We are in the Kingdom of Heaven as believers. Luke 17:21

 

[StanJ]

No one has seen God, that is, in His Spirit Essence!

We've learned that Enoch walked with God, and he was not, for God took him (Ge 5:24).

Elijah, was in a chariot of fire and was taken into heaven with a whirlwind (Mt 17:2-3).

Moses was with Jesus at the Trnasfiguration as was Elijah. Where did Moses come from if not from heaven? And, there are many, many more who are in heaven.

Your last statement is false!

People go to hell because of their sins.

The wages of sin is death!

To God Be The Glory

Please don't ADD to God's word or thoughts. No one has EVER seen God means no one has been TO Heaven except Jesus, because He is the WORD incarnate. Enoch and Elijah did not go to heaven, they went to Paradise to await the Tribulation and fulfill Heb 9:27.
No, people DIE because of their sins...they go to hell because they have NOT accepted God's provision for that sin.

 

[mjrhealth]

You either accept and believe what Jesus said in John 1:18, and filter what the rest of the NT says through that, or you don't and cannot possibly get to the truth. FYI, the Kingdom of God/Heaven is NOT the same as heaven. A kingdom is a place where the King rules His people. We are in the Kingdom of Heaven as believers. Luke 17:2

Gen_3:8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.
Gen_3:9 And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?

Even today people can go and visit God, but you cant accept that. Jesus did much more than just "die " for your sins, but how would christans know that, the bible is their god and they wont ask God even most churches have no idea what Jesus did during those three days. No, man somehow thinks his will is greater than Gods power to save man. Sometimes it seems christians dont want to see God or be saved, the evidence in all teh negative things spoken of God certainly points to that.

Where is thy faith.

In all His Love

 

[StanJ]

Gen_3:8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.
Gen_3:9 And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?

Even today people can go and visit God, but you cant accept that. Jesus did much more than just "die " for your sins, but how would christans know the bible is their god and they wont ask God even most churches have no idea what Jesus did during those three days. No, man somehow thinks his will is greater than Gods power to save man. Sometimes it seems christians dont want to see God or be saved, the evidence in all teh negative things spoken of God certainly points to that.

Where is thy faith.

In all His Love

The physical manifestations of God in the OT were just that, manifestations, not actually God, as man cannot see a spirit. If you study that issue you will likely deduce that those specific manifestations were the pre-incarnate Jesus.