2 Chron 11:14-17 and the lost tribes

[Joshua David]

E, If you are thinking the Northern Tribes are just a Spiritual thing we will disagree. They are a race and a blood line that was scattered throughout the world. They make up most of the Christian church today. Not replacement Theology but a blood line of people named after the Mountains they crossed in their migration out of Assyria.

So what led you to conclusion that they make up most of the Christian church, and where do you get your information?


Joshua David

 

[tomwebster]

So what led you to conclusion that they make up most of the Christian church, and where do you get your information?


Joshua David

I study HISTORY!

 

[Joshua David]

I study HISTORY!

I am really trying to understand how history can tell you that the church is made up of lost tribes if the people themselves don't even know. I am in church, my mom is in church, so does that mean that I am an Israelite? Of course my little brother is out of church, and my Dad used to be in church, so does that mean that my brother must be adopted, since obviously he isn't an Israelite.

So what history lesson should I be studying to determine if I am one of the lucky ones who's bloodline qualifies?

This is my whole point. While I can understand Epi's example of the leaven, since that is an actual biblical idea, but as far as your understanding... I just don't get it.

Joshua David

 

[tomwebster]

I am really trying to understand how history can tell you that the church is made up of lost tribes if the people themselves don't even know.

First you would have to take the time to read the history and them you might not understand it.

... I just don't get it.

I know you don’t get it jd, maybe it’s just time to put it on the shelf, it might not be the time for you to understand. Some of those that are Israel are waking up and discovering who they are and that they have a job to do.

 

[veteran]

No excuse for denying all this as written...

IKing 11:29-32
29 And it came to pass at that time when Jeroboam went out of Jerusalem, that the prophet Ahijah the Shilonite found him in the way; and he had clad himself with a new garment; and they two were alone in the field:
30 And Ahijah caught the new garment that was on him, and rent it in twelve pieces:
31 And he said to Jeroboam, Take thee ten pieces: for thus saith the LORD, the God of Israel, Behold, I will rend the kingdom out of the hand of Solomon, and will give ten tribes to thee:
32 (But he shall have one tribe for My servant David's sake, and for Jerusalem's sake, the city which I have chosen out of all the tribes of Israel:)
(KJV)

IKing 11:34-35
34 Howbeit I will not take the whole kingdom out of his hand: but I will make him prince all the days of his life for David My servant's sake, whom I chose, because he kept My commandments and My statutes:
35 But I will take the kingdom out of his son's hand, and will give it unto thee, even ten tribes.
(KJV)

IKing 11:37-38
37 And I will take thee, and thou shalt reign according to all that thy soul desireth, and shalt be king over Israel.
38 And it shall be, if thou wilt hearken unto all that I command thee, and wilt walk in My ways, and do that is right in My sight, to keep My statutes and My commandments, as David My servant did; that I will be with thee, and build thee a sure house, as I built for David, and will give Israel unto thee.
(KJV)

IKing 12:17
17 But as for the children of Israel which dwelt in the cities of Judah, Rehoboam reigned over them.
(KJV)

IKing 12:20
20 And it came to pass, when all Israel heard that Jeroboam was come again, that they sent and called him unto the congregation, and made him king over all Israel: there was none that followed the house of David, but the tribe of Judah only.
(KJV)

IKing 12:21
21 And when Rehoboam was come to Jerusalem, he assembled all the house of Judah, with the tribe of Benjamin, an hundred and fourscore thousand chosen men, which were warriors, to fight against the house of Israel, to bring the kingdom again to Rehoboam the son of Solomon.
(KJV)

IKing 14:30
30 And there was war between Rehoboam and Jeroboam all their days.
(KJV)

II Ki 17:1
1 In the twelfth year of Ahaz king of Judah began Hoshea the son of Elah to reign in Samaria over Israel nine years.
(KJV)

II Ki 17:18
18 Therefore the LORD was very angry with Israel, and removed them out of His sight: there was none left but the tribe of Judah only.
(KJV)

II Ki 17:21-24
21 For He rent Israel from the house of David; and they made Jeroboam the son of Nebat king: and Jeroboam drave Israel from following the LORD, and made them sin a great sin.
22 For the children of Israel walked in all the sins of Jeroboam which he did; they departed not from them;
23 Until the LORD removed Israel out of His sight, as He had said by all His servants the prophets. So was Israel carried away out of their own land to Assyria unto this day.
24 And the king of Assyria brought men from Babylon, and from Cuthah, and from Ava, and from Hamath, and from Sepharvaim, and placed them in the cities of Samaria instead of the children of Israel: and they possessed Samaria, and dwelt in the cities thereof.
(KJV)

II Ki 17:6
6 In the ninth year of Hoshea the king of Assyria took Samaria, and carried Israel away into Assyria, and placed them in Halah and in Habor by the river of Gozan, and in the cities of the Medes.
(KJV)

 

[avoice]

I am really trying to understand how history can tell you that the church is made up of lost tribes if the people themselves don't even know. I am in church, my mom is in church, so does that mean that I am an Israelite? Of course my little brother is out of church, and my Dad used to be in church, so does that mean that my brother must be adopted, since obviously he isn't an Israelite.

So what history lesson should I be studying to determine if I am one of the lucky ones who's bloodline qualifies?

This is my whole point. While I can understand Epi's example of the leaven, since that is an actual biblical idea, but as far as your understanding... I just don't get it.

Joshua David

Judah is made up of two tribes Judah and Benjamin and some Levite's but they are called Judah as its the largest tribe
Israel is ten tribes (became Christains) they received the birth right ..They are also called Ephraim as its the largest tribe

All 12 were Israel or the house of Jacob, they became Judah and Israel they will return to being Israel when the two sticks are rejoined

The term Judah and Isreal is used 282 times in scripture and its not because they are the same ... Judah are a rement to preserve the Law .

Heres a page from a great history book that describes just what your talking about here

http://reluctant-mes...sceptre_105.htm

 

[Tehilah BaAretz]

I listened to a Holocaust survivor yesterday at Yad V'Shem in Jerusalem. She has studied Christianity and history since she was liberated from a death camp at the end of World War II. She was rescued by Christians twice before being captured and has a good attitude towards Christian. Her thoughts effect the way I read on the subject of the 10 Lost Tribes.
She told us that there are theological attempts to de-legitimize the Jewish People and the Nation of Israel today. Those attempts specifically include the idea that 10 tribes of Israel were lost and that their descendants are now the legitimate heirs of national Israel. This is nothing other than the "New Antisemitism."
Facts:
The 10 tribes were conquered and taken as captives to a distant land.
There were some within those tribes who intermarried and assimilated.
Those who did not wish to return to Israel did not and remained in their distant lands.

However...
All 12 tribes are mentioned in later passages of scripture.
Modern Israel contains Jewish people who have returned from more than 100 nations. They have maintained their Jewish identity in spite of long dispersion and assimilation in the nations. Many can prove it with DNA markers and historic records. Some have even preserved the language secretly. They have preserved their moral teachings and many have also maintained copies of scriptures. For instance, a copy of the book of Ezekiel was found preserved in a cave in Iraq in 1946. The people who lived there smuggled it to Israel and became Israeli citizens. (It is on display at the Ben Tzvi institute in Rehavia, Jerusalem.)

I do not choose to enter this debate of proof texts. Instead I'll make two observations.
1. If you think you might have a right to claim the blessings promised to Israel, find some proof! You just might. There are many who are actual descendants of the assimilated Jewish people and don't know it.
2.If you think that Christianity has replaced the Jewish people and that God has rejected the 10 tribes who assimilated, you are mistaken because God never actually loses anything. He knows us all including our genealogy. You are welcome to be grafted into the vine (Jesus) but that won't make you a Jew. Instead you will be a "New creation" in Messiah, a whole new man. Why would you want something else?

 

[veteran]

Lot of Jewish rabbi of history have testified of their understanding that the ten tribes of Israel are still scattered today, but will be joined back with Judah in final, which is actually what God's Word says. Other rabbi treat them as all lost forever.

So your personal attempts to use the idea of anti-Semitism assigned to the ten tribes idea would make even a lot of studied Jewish rabbi anti-Semtic!!

There is an obvious disconnect between lot of Jewish people and their rabbi teachers who do recognize prophecy in God's Word about the ten tribes as a separate peoples from Judah (Jews).

Biblical prophecy about the ten tribed "house of Israel" reveals they would be scattered among the Gentiles, but in final that God would sift them like a sieve with not one kernel falling to the ground (Amos 9). God's prophecy about the two sticks being put back together in final per Ezek.37 is also undeniable, at least it is for those who listen to God in His Word and not their own agenda.

 

[Joshua David]

Lot of Jewish rabbi of history have testified of their understanding that the ten tribes of Israel are still scattered today, but will be joined back with Judah in final, which is actually what God's Word says. Other rabbi treat them as all lost forever.

So your personal attempts to use the idea of anti-Semitism assigned to the ten tribes idea would make even a lot of studied Jewish rabbi anti-Semtic!!

There is an obvious disconnect between lot of Jewish people and their rabbi teachers who do recognize prophecy in God's Word about the ten tribes as a separate peoples from Judah (Jews).

Biblical prophecy about the ten tribed "house of Israel" reveals they would be scattered among the Gentiles, but in final that God would sift them like a sieve with not one kernel falling to the ground (Amos 9). God's prophecy about the two sticks being put back together in final per Ezek.37 is also undeniable, at least it is for those who listen to God in His Word and not their own agenda.

Again let me say this, I am not against someone who has been living among the gentiles and was an Israelite and did not know it. I am against someone who is a GENTILE and then takes upon themselves the identity of an Israelite, with all rights, privileges, and promises given to the Israelites. There is a huge difference in a pauper who did not know his heritage, and being pleasantly surprised to find that he was a prince, and a pauper who claims to be a prince when he is not.


Even if the 'lost' ten tribes were scattered throughout the gentile nations, then who is to say who is an Israelite and who is not? You can't claim that eveyone who is in the church is automatically an Israelite, because that would make all of there family Israelites too. To claim anything even similar to this is at best, idiotic and at worse, outright theft. They are taking for themselves a heritage that does not belong to them.


Joshua David

 

[avoice]

I am not sure I get your point maybe Im misreading something
What differance does it make who is a gentile ? They are grafted in upon their acceptance of Christ.
Did not Christ take the word to the gentiles?

There is some Israelites and gentiles and Judah living in Israel today just as there is in U.S. and most other places
they have companions as scripture calls them ...
However for propchey purposes so that we can understand God uses the name of only the tribe/tribes he is dealing with he is not the author of confusion ...
Judah is under a stupor until an appointed time so the fact they dont get this is not surprising ..However it doesnt change the fact they are as much Gods people as Israel(Christians)

I was surprised to find out there are sects of Jews in Israel that also accept the Ten tribes teaching of scripture however they think that it us (Israel who has gone astray and will come back to the fold at the endtimes

One thing I know is
I trust God's word he said he would return his people to the land of Israel the basket of Good figs
that he would plant them and never uproot ..that happened in 1948 ..
So anyone who says the Jews who were brought back to Israel are not Judah or Gods people are following their delusions and bought into 2000 years of Anti semite garbage. God brought back exactly whom he promised to.

 

[Joshua David]

I am not sure I get your point maybe Im misreading something
What differance does it make who is a gentile ? They are grafted in upon their acceptance of Christ.
Did not Christ take the word to the gentiles?

Yes, but there were certain promises and gifts that God gave just to the Israelites. The difference being for instance, the land in Israel. God gave that land specifically to Israel. Now salvation is a gift that is given to all men, whosoever will. But when you claim to be a member of the 'lost' ten tribes of Israel, then what you are doing is in fact, stealing the birthright of the True Israelites that God promised those things.


That is all that I am saying.


Joshua David

 

[avoice]

Yes, but there were certain promises and gifts that God gave just to the Israelites. The difference being for instance, the land in Israel. God gave that land specifically to Israel. Now salvation is a gift that is given to all men, whosoever will. But when you claim to be a member of the 'lost' ten tribes of Israel, then what you are doing is in fact, stealing the birthright of the True Israelites that God promised those things.


That is all that I am saying.


Joshua David

I see thanks for explaining
I just see differntly
If God says one is grafted in ...he means just that .. they become a part of the original therfore are entitled to the same promises other wise what is the point of grafting one in.
Since the land was given to all 12 tribes and 10 of those have lost their idenity as tribes how would one distingish between a gentile Christain and one from the heritage of one of the tribes?
Acceptance of Christ insures one is grafted in to the body of Christ and heir to all his promises.

I might add this is one of the things that changed with Christ Judism is about National salvation Christianity is about personal salvation therefore anyone can be grafted in

 

[Joshua David]

I see thanks for explaining
I just see differntly
If God says one is grafted in ...he means just that .. they become a part of the original therfore are entitled to the same promises other wise what is the point of grafting one in.
Since the land was given to all 12 tribes and 10 of those have lost their idenity as tribes how would one distingish between a gentile Christain and one from the heritage of one of the tribes?
Acceptance of Christ insures one is grafted in to the body of Christ and heir to all his promises.

I might add this is one of the things that changed with Christ Judism is about National salvation Christianity is about personal salvation therefore anyone can be grafted in

I do understand what you are talking about, but I don't see the 'wild branches' grafted into the 'natural branches' but to the 'vine' which is Jesus Christ. In other words, the 'natural branches' which are Israel and the 'wild branches' which are us gentiles, are grafted into the same vine, or root, which is Jesus Christ. Even when grafted into the same vine, which currently describes the church, the wild does not become the natural, neither does the natural become the wild.


This comes from Rom 11, and in Rom 11, Paul has a perfect opportunity to say that the Church is Spiritual Israel, or that Israel has become the church. He doesn't say that at all, and in fact draws clear distinctions between Israel and the gentile church. If there were no distinctions between Israel and the church, then why even discuss the distinctions that everyone says, clearly do not exist?


Why does he talk about Israel being blinded? Why does he talk about God is not through with Israel? Obvious if there are no distinctions between Israel and the Church, and God is still dealing with the newly born church, then it is obvious that God is not done with Israel.


But IF there are distinctions between the two, then it is perfectly understandable why Paul would say, that Israel did not stumble too far as to be beyond recovery. In fact Salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel Jealous. That verse alone should tell you that there is still a distinction between the Gentiles and Israel, that God still has a plan for Israel that is totally separate from the Gentiles.


I am not talking about salvation here. Salvation comes to all men, whosoever will. But there is a reason that God is not done with Israel, and that reason is for Israel alone, and doesn't have anything to do with the gentiles.


This is the reason that Paul says.


Rom 11:11-12 [sup]11[/sup] Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. [sup]12[/sup] But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!


Joshua David

 

[veteran]

Again let me say this, I am not against someone who has been living among the gentiles and was an Israelite and did not know it. I am against someone who is a GENTILE and then takes upon themselves the identity of an Israelite, with all rights, privileges, and promises given to the Israelites. There is a huge difference in a pauper who did not know his heritage, and being pleasantly surprised to find that he was a prince, and a pauper who claims to be a prince when he is not.

Even if the 'lost' ten tribes were scattered throughout the gentile nations, then who is to say who is an Israelite and who is not? You can't claim that eveyone who is in the church is automatically an Israelite, because that would make all of there family Israelites too. To claim anything even similar to this is at best, idiotic and at worse, outright theft. They are taking for themselves a heritage that does not belong to them.

Joshua David

Ideas that Gentiles in Christ that know about the ten tribes message in God's Word are trying to steal God's promises to Israel by claiming them under Christ, is a bunch of malarkey.

But what is NOT malarkey, are those of flesh born Israel today that refuse Christ Jesus who try to claim God's promises to Abraham WITHOUT Christ Jesus. Christ moved His vineyard of Israel to other husbandmen. That's why many of the promises to Israel can no longer be found in the holy lands today among Jews that refuse Christ Jesus as Messiah.

You know what else is sick? Jews who claim to believe on Christ Jesus that constantly preach no difference between Jew or Gentile in Christ's Church per Paul, and then infer God's promises to Israel have nothing to do with Gentiles under Christ Jesus.

That's why they deny the term "commonwealth of Israel" that Apostle Paul used to APPLY to believing Gentiles in Christ...


Eph 2:11-22
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

Apostle Paul spoke all this to Gentiles at Ephesus.

14 For He is our peace, Who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in His flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in Himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that He might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

Christ did not come to reconcile Israel only that would believe on Him, but Gentiles that also would believe.

Believing Gentiles have become part of "the household of God", built upon the foundation of the apostles AND PROPHETS? Whoa... what does that foundation of the prophets mean?

The foundation of God's Promises to Israel is what the Books of His prophets contain! So right there Paul is giving a 2nd reference to the covenants of promises given to believing Gentiles also, like he did with the 11-13 verses!


In Matthew 21 with the parable of the husbandmen, Christ REMOVED His vineyard of Israel from the unbelieving Jews. And that IS about the ten tribes being scattered among the Gentiles so as to be there when The Gospel was preached to both together, as ONE body. And that's Christ's Church today, His vineyard, for per Isaiah 5 the "house of Israel" (ten tribes) IS His vineyard.

So are the Jews the only seed of Israel today? NOPE. For even many of their rabbi through history have testified of the majority of the people of the ten tribes being scattered never to return. And that can be found in records of Jewish publications:

---------------------------------------------------------------------

“And when these Jews had understood what piety the king had towards God, and what kindness he had for Esdras, they were all greatly pleased; nay, many of them took their effects with them, and came to Babylon, as very desirous of going down to Jerusalem; but then the entire body of the people of Israel remained in that country; wherefore there are but two tribes in Asia and Europe subject to the Romans, while the ten tribes are beyond Euphrates till now, and are an immense multitude, and not to be estimated by numbers." (Jewish historian Josephus in Antiquities Of The Jews XI, v, 2)

“The captives of Israel exiled beyond the Euphrates did not return as a whole to Palestine along with their brethren the captives of Judah; at least there is no mention made of this event in the documents at our disposal… In fact, the return of the ten tribes was one of the great promises of the Prophets, and the advent of the Messiah is therefore necessarily identified with the epoch of their redemption.” (Jewish Quarterly Review, Vol. I -1888, pages 15, 17)

“...the returnees came only from the tribes of Judah and Benjamin —the exiles in Babylon. The ten tribes did not return...the loss of the [ten] tribes marked the greatest demographic defeat inscribed in Jewish memory since Biblical times.” (Zvi Ben-Dor Benite, “The Ten Lost Tribes: A World History,” Oxford Univ. Press, 2009, pp.17, 117)

"The ten tribes’ not returning opened 'a huge wound that does not heal.'” (Talmudic Haga, Sefer Ha-Berit Ha-Hadash)

 

[avoice]

I do understand what you are talking about, but I don't see the 'wild branches' grafted into the 'natural branches' but to the 'vine' which is Jesus Christ. In other words, the 'natural branches' which are Israel and the 'wild branches' which are us gentiles, are grafted into the same vine, or root, which is Jesus Christ. Even when grafted into the same vine, which currently describes the church, the wild does not become the natural, neither does the natural become the wild.


This comes from Rom 11, and in Rom 11, Paul has a perfect opportunity to say that the Church is Spiritual Israel, or that Israel has become the church. He doesn't say that at all, and in fact draws clear distinctions between Israel and the gentile church. If there were no distinctions between Israel and the church, then why even discuss the distinctions that everyone says, clearly do not exist?

Joshua David

I see it as he does say this just perhaps somewhat backwords from what your seeing it in Pauls commission.
Israel was cast in with the gentiles (remember God divorced Israel not Judah) The covenant was made to certain people, and it left many people out of the covenant. The Gentile nations did not have the law, and without following the law to the letter there was no salvation.

Then Christ came and paid the price and salvation was open to all by his grace through faith believe and repent in Jesus' name.

Romans 11:12 "Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fullness?"

'The diminishing of them", is "the loss of them". Because of the fall of Israel the people of all Gentile nations will have the riches of salvation.

Then when Israel returns to the Lord, how much more will the fullness of God's kingdom be with Israel and these added souls of the Gentiles.

Romans 11:13 "For I speak to you Gentiles, in as much as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:"

Remember Paul's commission? It is given in Acts 9:15; "But the Lord said unto him, "God thy way: for he [Paul] is a chosen vessel unto Me, to bear My name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:" .

Paul is saying, I tell you this and teach this because it glorifies the office of the Father.

Paul's office is the magnifying of the name of Christ, and leading Gentiles, the kings and queens of the ethnos, as well as the children of Israel to Christ. God had a plan and this is His plan

Romans 11:15 "For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be but life from the dead?"

Romans 11:16 "For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches."

This is saying that if the lump that they were made from is holy, then they also are holy. The root of Jessie is Jesus Christ, and all persons who have repented of their sins, and obtained salvation by faith in Jesus Christ are the branches.
If Christ is holy, and we are in Christ then we also are holy. That holiness is not in ourselves but in Christ, for our sins were taken from us and put under the blood of Christ

Romans 11:17 "And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;"

The "wild olive tree" are the Gentile nations, which include even the ten tribes of the house of Israel that call themselves Gentiles. They are grafted into Christ by the adoption to become children of God.
We can partake of the root, the blessings and freedom that we have in Christ, and be part of the olive tree, which is His kingdom. It is when we are part of that olive tree that we have eternal life.

Romans 11:18 "Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee."

Don't boast against those branches that were broken off, but by boasting, the root that provides the life flowing into the branches may also cut you off. Why? Because you are a wild tree branch grafted in the tree.

Jesus said in John 15:5; "I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing."

John 15:6 " If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned."

 

[veteran]

PROBLEMS with orthodox Jew's beliefs today...

Here's a link to the Temple Mount Faithful website.
http://www.templemountfaithful.org/index.htm

Their stated main goal:

"The goal of the Temple Mount and Land of Israel Faithful Movement is the building of the Third Temple on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem in our lifetime in accordance with the Word of G-d and all the Hebrew prophets and the liberation of the Temple Mount from Arab (Islamic) occupation so that it may be consecrated to the Name of G-d." (Main page statement on Temple Mount and Land of Israel Faithful Movement website).

You won't see much said about animal sacrifices associated with the movement, but during the Pesach (Passover) they still have pics of them done upon the Mount of Olives: http://www.templemountfaithful.org/pics-1998.htm

What that movement is about is orthodox Judaism per the Old Covenant. It is NOT about New Covenant worship through Christ Jesus The Messiah. Those folks are STILL WAITING for Messiah to come.

In their "Vision Of Redemption" statement, they say this:

The Temple Mount and Land of Israel Faithful Movement understands the phenomenon of modern Israel as the beginning of the redemption of the world. Two and one-half millennia ago, the Hebrew prophets spoke that in the "last days" G-d would regather His people from all the lands where He had scattered them [Yeshayahu (Isaiah) 43:5-7]. For the last 100 years the Jewish people have been returning to and rebuilding Zion. Today Israel is again the dynamic center of Jewish life across the world. The regathering is not yet complete. Ezekiel prophesied that G-d would "leave none of them there any longer" [Yechezkiel (Ezekiel) 39:28b].

Note just who they claim the gathering and redemption is about -- the world. And then they place the label "Jewish people" on those who return at the "regathering", quoting from Ezekiel 39. So let's look at who God is talking about in Ezekiel 39 in that last section:

Ezek 39:25-29
25 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for My holy name;
26 After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against Me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.
27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
29 Neither will I hide My face any more from them: for I have poured out My spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.
(KJV)

Did you know the Book of Ezekiel was written primarily to the ten tribed "house of Israel"? That "captivity of Jacob" in the end of this world is indeed about all Israel, the ten tribed House of Israel included that is still scattered among the Gentiles ("heathen" put for Gentiles in that time). There are many Scriptures in the prophets that declare Judah (Jews) and Israel as separate groups in that final gathering. Here's one of them...

Jer 33:7-8
7 And I will cause the captivity of Judah and the captivity of Israel to return, and will build them, as at the first.
8 And I will cleanse them from all their iniquity, whereby they have sinned against Me; and I will pardon all their iniquities, whereby they have sinned, and whereby they have transgressed against Me.
(KJV)

Did you know that the house of Israel went captive to Assyria and the lands of the Medes first, and then 120 years later Judah went into a different captivity to Babylon? As written in the Book of Ezra, only a portion of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi returned to Jerusalem after their Babylon captivity. The ten tribed House of Israel remained scattered in captivity, never returning to the holy lands. That's why God gave the below Ezekiel 37 prophecy about two separate sticks to point to two separate groups of Israelite peoples, not just of Judah (Jews)...

Ezek 37:16-17
16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions:
17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.
(KJV)

 

[Joshua David]

Ideas that Gentiles in Christ that know about the ten tribes message in God's Word are trying to steal God's promises to Israel by claiming them under Christ, is a bunch of malarkey.

But what is NOT malarkey, are those of flesh born Israel today that refuse Christ Jesus who try to claim God's promises to Abraham WITHOUT Christ Jesus. Christ moved His vineyard of Israel to other husbandmen. That's why many of the promises to Israel can no longer be found in the holy lands today among Jews that refuse Christ Jesus as Messiah.

And yet claiming something that does not belong to you is stealing, is it not?


Most of the promises to Israel will be fulfilled during the Millennium Reign of Christ. The reason that they are not fulfilled has more to do with the fact that Jesus hasn't returned yet, then it does with wither this Jew or that Jew has accepted Jesus Christ or not yet.


Has Israel for the most part rejected her Messiah? Yes, just as it was foretold, but it was foretold that God would use the Tribulation to purify Israel, and bring Israel into a relationship with him. Rom 11.


Was the 'vineyard' removed? But to who was it given? It was given to the gentiles, not to the 10 tribes. Yes, the reason it was removed was the rejection of the Messiah, but that was not the purpose of the removal. The purpose of the removal, as per Rom 11, was to make Israel jealous. It was given to the gentiles to make Israel Jealous, not to make Judah jealous.


Joshua David

 

[avoice]

only a portion of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi returned to Jerusalem after their Babylon captivity. The ten tribed House of Israel remained scattered in captivity, never returning to the holy lands. That's why God gave the below Ezekiel 37 prophecy about two separate sticks to point to two separate groups of Israelite peoples, not just of Judah (Jews)...

I agree with most of your statement The 10 tribes remained scattered ..... only a small part of Judah (w/benjamin and Levi returned ) however I see this as the divideing of the two basket of figs of Judah not Israel
and the evil ones would be destroyed never to return...The good would be returned

Jer.24
2 One basket had very good figs, even like the figs that are first ripe: and the other basket had very naughty figs, which could not be eaten, they were so bad.

3 Then said the LORD unto me, What seest thou, Jeremiah? And I said, Figs; the good figs, very good; and the evil, very evil, that cannot be eaten, they are so evil.

God is comparing these figs to the people of Judah some are very very good and some are very very evil

4 Again the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

5 Thus saith the LORD, the God of Israel; Like these good figs, so will I acknowledge them that are carried away captive of Judah, whom I have sent out of this place into the land of the Chaldeans for their good.

God has said he will acknowledge these good figs And he will bring them back to the land of Israel, He will build them up, plant them and Not pluck them up

8 And as the evil figs, which cannot be eaten, they are so evil; surely thus saith the LORD, So will I give Zedekiah the king of Judah, and his princes, and the residue of Jerusalem, that remain in this land, and them that dwell in the land of Egypt:

9 And I will deliver them to be removed into all the kingdoms of the earth for their hurt, to be a reproach and a proverb, a taunt and a curse, in all places whither I shall drive them.

 

[veteran]

But what is the MAIN problem with that Temple Mount Faithful and Land of Israel Movement?

It is a call for all peoples to recognize that new temple as the Ezekiel temple of Ezekiel 40 through 48. It is a call to go back to the Old Covenant worship.

Who in Christ Jesus doesn't see a problem with that today?

Messiah already came once. His Name is Jesus Christ, born of a virgin like the Isaiah prophecy said. God's prophets said Messiah was to come first to die on the cross, and He did. They also said He is to come again in final, and that's the time of the two sticks prophecy of Ezekiel 37 with the two separate houses of Israel being joined back together in the holy lands.

With Messiah's next coming, that's when He will establish the temple of Ezekiel in the holy land. That's when He will gather His Church to the holy land, and ONLY those of His Church will be made priests and kings to rule over all others. Orthodox Judaism doesn't believe that. They reject Christ Jesus as The Messiah still today. They do not recognize The New Covenant God sent through His Son.

That Temple Mount Movement today is going to get a LOT BIGGER, so it is going to be a strong temptation for many in the last days. The unbelieving Jews want all peoples to see it as God's final Word and redemption of all peoples and this earth. It WILL NOT BE.

Christ Jesus and His Apostles warned those in Him about a false one must appear first, sitting in the Temple of God, showing himself that he is God (2 Thess.2). That will be the Antichrist the early Church fathers also understood that must come first prior to Christ gathering His Church.

THAT is the reason the unbelieving Jews behind their new temple CANNOT accept the ten lost tribes of Israel message from God's Word. They refuse to admit that the ten tribes never returned, but want the world to think that themselves only as Jews make up the only people of God's Israel. Their idea is a lie.

That is why even many Jews that claim to believe on Christ Jesus as The Messiah also have difficulty in accepting the ten lost tribes message, and ANY idea that allows a believing Gentile in Christ's Church to claim God's promises they think was meant only for the people of Israel. They also will have a great awakening coming when they discover that the Zadok priests of Ezekiel 44 at Christ's future temple will ONLY be made up from His Church per The New Covenant, and not from unbelieving Jews per the Old Covenant like those Jews returning to Jerusalem today.

 

[veteran]

And yet claiming something that does not belong to you is stealing, is it not?

Most of the promises to Israel will be fulfilled during the Millennium Reign of Christ. The reason that they are not fulfilled has more to do with the fact that Jesus hasn't returned yet, then it does with wither this Jew or that Jew has accepted Jesus Christ or not yet.

Has Israel for the most part rejected her Messiah? Yes, just as it was foretold, but it was foretold that God would use the Tribulation to purify Israel, and bring Israel into a relationship with him. Rom 11.

Was the 'vineyard' removed? But to who was it given? It was given to the gentiles, not to the 10 tribes. Yes, the reason it was removed was the rejection of the Messiah, but that was not the purpose of the removal. The purpose of the removal, as per Rom 11, was to make Israel jealous. It was given to the gentiles to make Israel Jealous, not to make Judah jealous.

Joshua David

The unbelieving Jews lost all claim to God's Birthright promise through Abraham that eventually went to Joseph's two sons.

The only promises unbelieving Judah now has is what few promises God gave them for the sake of His servant David and for Jerusalem's sake, that He would always leave one tribe in Jerusalem.

The rest of the promises, gone....

That's why the unbelieving Jews no longer have a king in Jerusalem upon David's throne, because they rebelled against God in refusing His Saviour Jesus of Nazareth The Christ,

It's the reason why God allowed the old temple in Jerusalem to be destroyed by the Romans.

It's the reason the geographic nation of Israel was ended then in 69 A.D. and only has been re-established PARTIALLY in 1948 by U.N. Charter vote, without inheritance of all the holy lands and cities which God promised in final.

It's the reason Jews that refuse Christ scattered through the nations have been forced to manipulate and petition to use the power of those nations to protect Israelites in the holy land.

It's the reason why The Gospel per God's Word has gone out to the nations only by those of Christ's Church, and not by the unbelieving Jews.

It's the reason why Gentile nations like Britain and the U.S. built the Suez and Panama canals to control the gates of their enemies, and have been God's arm throughout the world.

It's the reason why the western Christian nations have been more blessed by God through their Christian history, in possession of the best land areas on earth with the means to extract those resources, and the ability to produce much more than they can consume, while the unbelieving Jews left in the holy land have had to deal with fewer resources and dodge bullets in doing so.

It's why the ten tribed House of Israel in the West have had a comfortable dwelling under Christ Jesus, living in great safety from its enemies, with cities that need no walls and defenses like Jerusalem needs still today.

It's why the Christian West STILL has kings and queens still over many of their nations while David's earthly throne is still gone in Jerusalem today.

It's why the Jacob's Pillar Stone is in the British Isles, and not in Jerusalem.

One more I forgot. It's why the orthodox unbelieving Jews like the Temple Mount Faithful are having to petition the nations for money in order to build their new temple, instead having no need to ask if it was truly a working from God and His Son.