10 FACTS about the Council of Jerusalem

[FHII]

Okay - as to your comments in RED = here is my question:
When there is an issue in the Church that needs clarification - the "hierarchy" of WHICH one of the tens of thousands of perpetually-splintering Protestant sects makes the decision?

In Matt. 18:15-18, Jesus said that the Church makes the FINAL decision in these types of matters.
Take your time . . .

That isn't even close.

 

[BreadOfLife]

'And hath put all things under His feet,
and gave Him to be the head over all things to the church,
Which is His body, the fulness of Him that filleth all in all.'
(Eph 1:22-23)
Hello @BreadOfLife,
* With respect, Christ alone has the authority to use the title 'The Bread of Life' (John 6:35).

* Paul, as you well know, was converted by Christ Jesus, the risen and ascended Lord.

* The Church which is being called out during this present administration, is, 'The church which is His Body, the fulness of Him that filleth all in all', of which Christ is the Head. He alone is the Authority that we are subject to.
In Christ Jesus
Chris

a. "Bread of Life" is simply a forum handle - NOT my official title.

b. Paul was converted by Jesus Christ LONG after he ascended and NOT during His life on earth as YOU claim (AD 32).

c. The Church is Christ on earth (Acts 9:4-5) - to whom he gave His SUPREME Authority (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 16:12-15, John 20:21-23). To submit to His Church is to submit to HIM. To reject His Church is to reject HIM and the ONE who sent Him.

 

[BreadOfLife]

That isn't even close.

Sooooo, are you saying that you cannot answer the question??
It's a pretty simple question.

Here it is again . . .
When there is an issue in the Church that needs clarification - the "hierarchy" of WHICH one of the tens of thousands of perpetually-splintering Protestant sects makes the decision?

 

[charity]

a. "Bread of Life" is simply a forum handle - NOT my official title.

b. Paul was converted by Jesus Christ LONG after he ascended and NOT during His life on earth as YOU claim (AD 32).

c. The Church is Christ on earth (Acts 9:4-5) - to whom he gave His SUPREME Authority (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 16:12-15, John 20:21-23). To submit to His Church is to submit to HIM. To reject His Church is to reject HIM and the ONE who sent Him.

You poor man!

 

[BreadOfLife]

You poor man!

And that is a pertinent and intelligent response because . . . ??

 

[FHII]

Sooooo, are you saying that you cannot answer the question??
It's a pretty simple question.

Here it is again . . .
When there is an issue in the Church that needs clarification - the "hierarchy" of WHICH one of the tens of thousands of perpetually-splintering Protestant sects makes the decision?

No I am saying Matt 18:15-17 isn't even close to what you say it is.

As to your question.... Go ask a Protestant. They would be the one to ask, not me.

 

[BreadOfLife]

No I am saying Matt 18:15-17 isn't even close to what you say it is.
As to your question.... Go ask a Protestant. They would be the one to ask, not me.

In your opinion, then - what is Jesus saying in Matt. 18:15-18?

As for asking a Protestant - I DID. You ARE a Protestant whether you like that moniker or not.
Anyway - that isn't the point of the question. YOU said:
"The Church is spiritual, yet there is a physical and earthly Church that is established. Jesus and Peter spoke of its govt structure but Paul really laid down the hierarchy. "

So, I am asking you to tell me, when there is an issue in the Church that needs clarification - the "hierarchy" of WHICH one of the tens of thousands of perpetually-splintering Protestant sects makes the decision?

I'll even take out the word "Protestant", since you seem to have a problem with it:
When there is an issue in the Church that needs clarification - the "hierarchy" of WHICH one of the tens of thousands of perpetually-splintering sects makes the decision?

YOU said that Paul "really laid it down" - so WHO gets to make those decisions?

 

[amadeus]

So, YOU believe that ALL of the tens of thousands of Protestant denominations are outside of Christ's Church - yet you claim that they are the Body of Christ??
Care to explain that one??

All of the man made and man led church groups, Protestant or Catholic or other are as a whole outside, even though some members of each may be inside. I would think that Catholics would agree with that unless you have taken on a belief in OSAS...

 

[amadeus]

Thank you for agreeing with me.

Now - since YOU believe that NO Protestants or Catholics are part of the Body of Christ - WHO is the Body of Christ??

"For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit." I Cor 12:12-13

Who is by one Spirit baptized into one body? You answer may be different than mine, but God is certainly correct.

 

[BreadOfLife]

All of the man made and man led church groups, Protestant or Catholic or other are as a whole outside, even though some members of each may be inside. I would think that Catholics would agree with that unless you have taken on a belief in OSAS...

I agree with you on the remark in RED.
However - the Catholic Church is NOT a man made Church. It is the ONLY one established by Christ and his Apostles.

 

[BreadOfLife]

"For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit." I Cor 12:12-13

Who is by one Spirit baptized into one body? You answer may be different than mine, but God is certainly correct.

That's not good enough Amadeus.
Jesus left us with an earthly Authority - and He didn't wait for 15 centuries for it to show up.

Jesus said that HIS Church was like a city on a hill - visible to the world (Matt. 5:14-16). He said that HIS Church was ONE - as He and the Father are ONE (John 17:20-23).

He didn't insinuate that His Church was a disjointed gaggle of believers from different sects that all teach different and sometimes opposing doctrines. The idea that His Church is comprised of SOME people from tens of thousands of disjointed and perpetually-splintering bodies is a man made fallacy that Scripture does NOT support.

God is NOT the Author if confusion - MAN is.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Ok. I've given 8 points for you to comment on. Have at it.

Epostle already did a masterful job at detroying your 8 points.
No sense in rehashing . . .

 

[amadeus]

I agree with you on the remark in RED.
However - the Catholic Church is NOT a man made Church. It is the ONLY one established by Christ and his Apostles.

This is where we disagree. Going through the details would not be edifying to either one of us at this point.

"Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another." Rom 14:19

 

[BreadOfLife]

This is where we disagree. Going through the details would not be edifying to either one of us at this point.

"Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another." Rom 14:19

Sooooo, you like making false statements - but you don't like it when somebody holds you accountable - is that it?

Anyway - I disagree with you. I believe this could be an extremely edifying conversation.
Running from the topic is not the answer . . .

 

[amadeus]

That's not good enough Amadeus.

I know that it is not good enough for you BOL, but it is for me and for some others.

Jesus left us with an earthly Authority - and He didn't wait for 15 centuries for it to show up.

Before Jesus came and the Holy Ghost was poured out men did not have the authority to stand against the powers of evil. You want to call it "earthly" authority. While I would not use that adjective, I do without a doubt it agree that it was power, the power of God:

"But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth." Acts 1:8

To really be a witness to God we have to have something from God or of God to accomplish it. Indeed God through His Son gave that something to "as many as the Lord our God shall call". No, He did not wait 15 centuries as it was first available in the upper room on the Day of Pentecost as per Acts chapter 2.

"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call." Acts 2:38-39

Jesus said that HIS Church was like a city on a hill - visible to the world (Matt. 5:14-16). He said that HIS Church was ONE - as He and the Father are ONE (John 17:20-23).

"Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven." Matt 5:14-16

The Light is all of us who receive it... that is all of us who receive Jesus who is the Light and the source of our Light. The "ye" the individuals who are the city and the "city" consists of overcomers. Not every Protestant and not every Catholic is or is to be an overcomer but only those who overcome and have written on them God's name and the name of God's city:

"Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name." Rev 3:12

Overcome what? What did Jesus overcome? He overcame the world of temptation which was also His until He overcame it and left it.

"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." John 16:33

Jesus overcame it and made it possible with his sacrifice for each of us to overcome our own world of temptation so we can be like Him. What precisely are we to overcome...? The things that are "in the world".

"For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world." I John 2:16

He didn't insinuate that His Church was a disjointed gaggle of believers from different sects that all teach different and sometimes opposing doctrines. The idea that His Church is comprised of SOME people from tens of thousands of disjointed and perpetually-splintering bodies is a man made fallacy that Scripture does NOT support.

God is NOT the Author if confusion - MAN is.

Forget about the disjointed gaggle and sects. They are not it and neither is the Catholic Church which is similarly loaded with people who are simply members but don't really care and many of the members as a result do not even strive. You say that the CC itself has all of the truth available in it, but even if that were true, if no member of the CC was an overcomer then no member could eat of the Tree of Life and no member could have the name of God and God's church on him. Those who meet the requirements are those who will receive the promises. Being a Protestant [any group or sect or church] or being a Catholic is not enough. Those labels will get a person who is not an overcomer no where at all that is good.

The confusion is in those who choose not to overcome.

 

[BreadOfLife]

I know that it is not good enough for you BOL, but it is for me and for some others.

It's not good enough for God - and that's what really matters.

Before Jesus came and the Holy Ghost was poured out men did not have the authority to stand against the powers of evil. You want to call it "earthly" authority. While I would not use that adjective, I do without a doubt it agree that it was power, the power of God:

"But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth." Acts 1:8

To really be a witness to God we have to have something from God or of God to accomplish it. Indeed God through His Son gave that something to "as many as the Lord our God shall call". No, He did not wait 15 centuries as it was first available in the upper room on the Day of Pentecost as per Acts chapter 2.

"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call." Acts 2:38-39

Doesn't matter what YOU call it.

Jesus gave His Church Supreme Authority - that WHATEVER it ordained on earth wold also be ordained in Heaven (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:32, John 16:12-15, John 20:21-23). He didn't give this Authority to individual believers - but to the leaders of His Church.

"Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven." Matt 5:14-16

The Light is all of us who receive it... that is all of us who receive Jesus who is the Light and the source of our Light. The "ye" the individuals who are the city and the "city" consists of overcomers. Not every Protestant and not every Catholic is or is to be an overcomer but only those who overcome and have written on them God's name and the name of God's city:

"Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name." Rev 3:12

Overcome what? What did Jesus overcome? He overcame the world of temptation which was also His until He overcame it and left it.

"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." John 16:33

Jesus overcame it and made it possible with his sacrifice for each of us to overcome our own world of temptation so we can be like Him. What precisely are we to overcome...? The things that are "in the world".

"For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world." I John 2:16

I never said that ALL Catholics were saved, nor are they the "light".
Jesus stated that His CHURCH was the light - a city on a hill that cannot be hidden. A VISIBLE entity for all to see - not an invisible gaggle of disjointed people who believe in opposing doctrines.

His Church is monolithic in its beliefs and must remain that way (John 17:20-23).

Forget about the disjointed gaggle and sects. They are not it and neither is the Catholic Church which is similarly loaded with people who are simply members but don't really care and many of the members as a result do not even strive. You say that the CC itself has all of the truth available in it, but even if that were true, if no member of the CC was an overcomer then no member could eat of the Tree of Life and no member could have the name of God and God's church on him. Those who meet the requirements are those who will receive the promises. Being a Protestant [any group or sect or church] or being a Catholic is not enough. Those labels will get a person who is not an overcomer no where at all that is good.

The confusion is in those who choose not to overcome.

That's funny - I'm not the one who brought up this gaggle of disjointed and perpetually splintering sects who all teach opposing doctrines. YOU did.

The Catholic Church is not disjointed - nor is it perpetually-splintering. It is monolithic in its beliefs.
There are dissidents among the flock. They are simply Protestants who haven't fully parted ways yet.

To overcome - you must be obedient.
To be obedient, you must submit to Christ and His Body.

Somewhere around the 15th century, flawed men decided NOT to be obedient anymore and appointed themselves as the Supreme authority. YOU simply latched onto an offshoot of an offshoot of an offshoot of an offshoot.

That us nothing short of disobedience - and that is not "overcoming" anything . . .

 

[amadeus]

Sooooo, you like making false statements - but you don't like it when somebody holds you accountable - is that it?

"God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged." Rom 3:4

Anyway - I disagree with you. I believe this could be an extremely edifying conversation.
Running from the topic is not the answer . . .

So then disagree! Only God gives the increase!

Winning is not edifying when we only tear down and never build up. I do not post in order to win. If that were my purpose I would lose even if I won. If I lose and someone is edified, I give God the glory.

 

[amadeus]

It's not good enough for God - and that's what really matters.

Doesn't matter what YOU call it.

Jesus gave His Church Supreme Authority - that WHATEVER it ordained on earth wold also be ordained in Heaven (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:32, John 16:12-15, John 20:21-23). He didn't give this Authority to individual believers - but to the leaders of His Church.

I never said that ALL Catholics were saved, nor are they the "light".
Jesus stated that His CHURCH was the light - a city on a hill that cannot be hidden. A VISIBLE entity for all to see - not an invisible gaggle of disjointed people who believe in opposing doctrines.

His Church is monolithic in its beliefs and must remain that way (John 17:20-23).

That's funny - I'm not the one who brought up this gaggle of disjointed and perpetually splintering sects who all teach opposing doctrines. YOU did.

The Catholic Church is not disjointed - nor is it perpetually-splintering. It is monolithic in its beliefs.
There are dissidents among the flock. They are simply Protestants who haven't fully parted ways yet.

To overcome - you must be obedient.
To be obedient, you must submit to Christ and His Body.

Somewhere around the 15th century, flawed men decided NOT to be obedient anymore and appointed themselves as the Supreme authority. YOU simply latched onto an offshoot of an offshoot of an offshoot of an offshoot.

That us nothing short of disobedience - and that is not "overcoming" anything . . .

On and on you go. I will leave you with your answers which are no answers for anyone who is really hungry and thirsty for the kingdom and righteous of God. There really are more important things.

The Pharisees who opposed Jesus led the way that you lead and it has nothing to do with doctrine. What happened in the 15th century happened before when Jeroboam became king of the northern 10 tribes of Israel. It was wrong both times, but it did not have to be.

"The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun." Ecc 1:9

 

[epostle1]

James was bishop of Jerusalem with all the authority of an Apostle. It was the host church for the council. But James was not bishop of all the Apostles. Peter was, taking into account the whole NT. Luke says Peter made the initial decision, you have to take off those biased goggles. James was last to speak, but it was based on what Peter initially said.

Luke is a master of understatement and says “Because there arose no little dissension and debate….” (Acts 15:2) it was decided to ask the Apostles and elders in Jerusalem to gather and consider the matter. So the apostles and some presbyters (priests) with them meet and, of course, Peter is there, as is James who was especially prominent in Jerusalem among the apostles, and would later become bishop there. Once again Luke rather humorously understates the matter by saying, “After much debate, Peter arose” (Acts 15:7).

In effect Peter arises to settle the matter since, (it would seem), that the apostles themselves were divided. Had not Peter received this charge from the Lord? The Lord had prophesied: Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has demanded to sift you all like wheat but I have prayed for you Peter, that your faith may not fail; and you, when once you have turned again, strengthen your brothers (Luke 22:31-32). Now Peter fulfills this text, as he will again, and every Pope after him. Peter clearly dismisses any notion that the Gentiles should be made to take up the whole burden of Jewish customs. Paul and Barnabas rise to support this. Then James (who it seems may have felt otherwise) rises to assent to the decision and asks that a letter be sent forth to all the Churches explaining the decision. He also asks for and obtains a few concessions.

There is nothing in Acts 15 that undermines Peter's primary role.

So there it is, the First Council. And that Council, like all the Church-wide Councils that would follow, was a gathering of the bishops, in the presence of Peter who works to unite them. A decision is then made, and a decree, binding on the whole Church, is sent out. Very Catholic actually. We have kept this Biblical model ever since. Our Protestant brethren have departed from it for they have no Pope to settle things when they dispute. They have split endlessly into tens of thousands of denominations and factions. When no one is pope every one is pope.
It is the Decision of the Holy Spirit and Us....On the Council of Jerusalem and the Catholicity of the Early Church - Community in Mission

 

[epostle1]

On and on you go. I will leave you with your answers which are no answers for anyone who is really hungry and thirsty for the kingdom and righteous of God. There really are more important things.

Don't be so sure. "the kingdom and righteous of God" according to amadeus? Do you teach infallibly?

The Pharisees who opposed Jesus led the way that you lead and it has nothing to do with doctrine.

BofL isn't opposing Jesus like a Pharisee. That's insulting and a big mistake. It has everything to do with doctrine, properly defined. Doctrines flow from revealed truth, they are not man made religious tenets that anti-institutionists presuppose. Paul was a Pharisee. Cult leaders formulate their private doctrines just by reading the Bible alone, a big problem infecting all of Protestantism, especially anti-institutionists.

What happened in the 15th century happened before when Jeroboam became king of the northern 10 tribes of Israel. It was wrong both times, but it did not have to be.

It's a more accurate to compare Korah's rebellion against Moses (Numbers 16) with the 16th century reformers. It was wrong both times.

"The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun." Ecc 1:9

A lovely quote. But you don't have enough faith to believe God can preserve an infallible Church, even though it's indicated repeatedly in Scripture. Nothing new about that either.