“I will shew thee my faith by my works.“

[Episkopos]

***
Well, obviously you think you have been made privy to something.

Thank you for your input but I will just ignore the thoughts behind them.

just remain as you are.

 

[H. Richard]

just remain as you are.

Thanks for your permission to remain as I am.

 

[farouk]

Faith without works is dead just like the body without the spirit is dead.

Ephesians 2.10 follows on from Ephesians 2.8-9...

 

[H. Richard]

People can argue this until they are blue in the face but it does not change the FACTS as shown in Genesis.
In my opinion the book of James is devoid of the gospel of grace as taught by Paul. However, it is compatible with the Jewish law. Since the word of God has to be based on truth, I find the book of James is not based on FAITH but only on works of the law and is not for this age of God’s grace.

Here are some more facts that support my opinion. I find them interesting.

1. The word “Law” is found in 18 places
2. The word “grace” is found in 2 places
3. The word “Christ” is found in 2 places
4. The word “Justified” is found in 2 place with the words “by works” after them
5. The words “by faith” is found 1 time (justified by works and not by faith only)

6. The word “cross” is not found
7. The word “reconciled” is not found
8. The word “sanctified” is not found
9. The word “saved” is not found
10. The words “in Christ” are not found
11. The shed blood of Jesus on the cross is not mentioned.

Number 11 shows that it is devoid of the work of the cross where scriptures says that Jesus paid for the sins of all of mankind on the cross.

Romans 4:1-7 Abraham Justified by Faith.
1 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh?
2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before

 

[VictoryinJesus]

In my opinion the book of James is devoid of the gospel of grace as taught by Paul.

James spoke the gospel in Christ. James is not devoid of the gospel of Jesus Christ. The OT is not devoid of the gospel of Jesus Christ. HE is what all the shadows spoke of.

James 1:23-27
[23] For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: [24] For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. [25] But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty(Christ), and continueth therein , he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed. [26] If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.(of the flesh and not of Christ) [27] Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.


Two are there in James...to look at the ‘natural man’ who is death ...or to look upon the perfect law of Liberty which IS Christ and Life. The same perfect law of Liberty seen in 2 Corinthians when the vail is removed and Christ is seen.

2 Corinthians 3:16-18
[16] Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. [17] Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is , there is liberty. [18] But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

2 Corinthians 4:6-7
[6] For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. [7] But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

1 Corinthians 12:31
[31] But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.
...

 

[H. Richard]

Okay, rationalize these FACTS that show James was mistaken in the book of James.

James 2:20-21
20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
(NKJ)

**FACT!
No, he was not! ---- He was accounted righteous before God several years earlier, BEFORE the birth of Isaac, and before he had done anything to "prove" his faith in God. Check it out in Genesis 15;4-6 below..

Genesis 15:4-6
4 And behold, the word of the LORD came to him, saying, "This one shall not be your heir, but one who will come from your own body shall be your heir."
5 Then He brought him outside and said, "Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be."
6 And he believed in the LORD, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.
(NKJ)

**FACT! Not only that, but God accounted him righteous solely for his faith in His Promises, and not by anything that he did. There is nothing in Genesis 15 that mentions any works that Abraham did. Paul accurately reports this. It seems that James did not consider the account in Genesis 15. It was not until Genesis 22, many years AFTER Isaac was born, when Abraham was well over 100 years old, that he agreed to offer Isaac.

James writes:
22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.
23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend.
24 You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

**FACT! Neither of those last two statements jives with the Genesis 15:4-6 account.
Nowhere does the OT Scripture say that Abraham "was called God's friend" BECAUSE he was willing to offer up his son Isaac. In Isaiah 41:8 it states that God called Abraham His friend but nowhere in the context of the chapter does He say it was because Abraham offered up his son Isaac.

**FACT! What James wrote, as shown above, is a direct contradiction of the Gospel that Paul taught and the account given in Genesis 15:4-6. """Abraham was righteous before God solely because he believed God’s promises."""

Go ahead and say this is not true but the scriptures will show, IMHO, you are just sticking your head in the sand.

 

[bbyrd009]

God has already said our good works are as filthy rags.

if you put yourself in that "our" it sure does!
But actually reading the Scripture will quickly clarify this wadr

 

[bbyrd009]

A person on this forum who is judgmental towards individuals do not have good works of the heart.

so you say, but we are identified with our statements here in a forum, and in fairness it is the statements that are most often being judged. When you say "I believe" rather than "there is a belief that exists, __________," one can only respond to what has been offered after all? And wadr you have made yourself the arbiter here, see, and after saying "I believe _____," and literally inviting the judgement.

Don't you, we, essentially come here to be "judged?" I certainly do. But if your feelings are still easily hurt, or you are still easily offended, maybe dissociating from any beliefs you want to forward or discuss will help?

They love to use the word YOU. I am not saying anyone is wrong. I am stating what I believe. Don't I have a right to do that????????

at least until you have revealed that those beliefs are actually Absolute Truths to you, as you have done, certainly. But after several rounds of the obvious ignoring or deflecting of Scripture that would/might ameliorate your Absolute Truth, your arg here becomes moot, see?
Or how can you use the word "I" so many times and not expect to hear some "you" iow?

you might pick up #192 for an example if you like, my premise there being that you are taking statements meant as a condemnation of a certain common type of "believer" too literally, particularly @ "no one," which is meant for effect, and not meant to be taken so literally. Obv Jesus, John the Baptist, Paul, and prolly even Peter on Sundays at least do not fit the profile, right?

 

[bbyrd009]

Some think that good works are what a person does in religions and it usually means keeping the law.

in your lexicon maybe, but wadr "works of the law" and "good works" are clearly delineated in Scripture, except you will not engage in that discussion, or at least haven't in my experience.

My guess is that you have arrived at an AT that cannot be questioned, and wadr when you find something that cannot be questioned this should be telling you something.
But regardless, most everyone else can hear it anyway I guess
peace

 

[bbyrd009]

what did you go out into the wilderness to see?

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Okay, rationalize these FACTS that show James was mistaken in the book of James.

James 2:20-21
20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
(NKJ)

**FACT!
No, he was not! ---- He was accounted righteous before God several years earlier, BEFORE the birth of Isaac, and before he had done anything to "prove" his faith in God. Check it out in Genesis 15;4-6 below..

Genesis 15:4-6
4 And behold, the word of the LORD came to him, saying, "This one shall not be your heir, but one who will come from your own body shall be your heir."
5 Then He brought him outside and said, "Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be."
6 And he believed in the LORD, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.
(NKJ)

**FACT! Not only that, but God accounted him righteous solely for his faith in His Promises, and not by anything that he did. There is nothing in Genesis 15 that mentions any works that Abraham did. Paul accurately reports this. It seems that James did not consider the account in Genesis 15. It was not until Genesis 22, many years AFTER Isaac was born, when Abraham was well over 100 years old, that he agreed to offer Isaac.

James writes:
22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.
23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend.
24 You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

**FACT! Neither of those last two statements jives with the Genesis 15:4-6 account.
Nowhere does the OT Scripture say that Abraham "was called God's friend" BECAUSE he was willing to offer up his son Isaac. In Isaiah 41:8 it states that God called Abraham His friend but nowhere in the context of the chapter does He say it was because Abraham offered up his son Isaac.

**FACT! What James wrote, as shown above, is a direct contradiction of the Gospel that Paul taught and the account given in Genesis 15:4-6. """Abraham was righteous before God solely because he believed God’s promises."""

Go ahead and say this is not true but the scriptures will show, IMHO, you are just sticking your head in the sand.

You completely ignored James mention of the law of Liberty which IS Christ. James refers to staring into the natural face of that vain man...or looking into the Law of Liberty which is Spirit. If you are suggesting there are no fruits of the Spirit we are to look for in a person and also in ourselves, then that contradicts scripture. There are fruits which is work but rather than ‘dead work’ the fruit (work) of the Spirit is God’s work in us...changing us, transforming us into the image of His son instead of conforming us into the image of the world. (IMO) this is what James is speaking of here: be not conformed to the world but transformed by the renewing of your mind. Abraham taking Isaac to the top of the mountain and laying his son on the altar....was ALL God (Spirit)’s work....even the rams horns caught(entangled) in the thorn thicket. You want to insist it was not Abraham’s works and you are right, it was God’s work through Abraham. How amazing! God uses our life to do the same thing, in revealing the Son. James is urging them to get away from ‘O vain man’ and to stare into the Law of Liberty which does ‘change us’. If you are suggesting all a person does in believe and remain bitter, hateful, dripping poison of hostility, lying, scheming, A respecter persons, and hating ...and calling it faith...they may want to ask “Is there fruit of the Law of Liberty which is Christ?” No fruit of the Spirit...No works of God... No life. Baptism from above doesn’t come on a person and not change them. It absolutely changes them. If you are suggesting it doesn’t you are suggesting one ignores there is no fruit and to continue in ‘o vain man’ deception.

James 2:20
[20] But wilt thou know, O vain(flesh) man, that faith without works(of the Spirit) is dead?

Galatians 5:22-26
[22] But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, [23] Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. [24] And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. [25] If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. [26] Let us not be desirous of vain(flesh) glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

James 2:26
[26] For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith(in Christ)without works (fruit of Spirit) is dead also.

James 2:17
[17] Even so faith, if it hath not (live)works, is (unprofitable)dead, being alone.

John 12:24-25
[24] Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. [25] He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

...it ‘abides alone’ without Spirit...

Hebrews 9:14
[14] How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

James 1:26-27
[26] If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain(flesh). [27] Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless (those without the Father) and widows(those free from the Law through death of an husband) in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world. (Be not conformed to the world but transformed by the renewing of your mind) (1 Timothy 3:9)

2 Timothy 2:21-22
[21] If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work. [22] Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure(Christ) heart.

Hebrews 13:20-21
[20] Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, [21] Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Hebrews 2:10
[10] For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Acts 3:13-16
[13] The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go. [14] But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you; [15] And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses. [16] And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.

2 Timothy 1:7
[7] For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

Ephesians 5:9-10
[9] (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth [10] Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.

So again James is urging them to not continue in staring at the natural o’ vain man...but urging them to look into the perfect law of Liberty which is Christ.

James 1:23-25
[23] For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: [24] For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. [25] But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein , he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed. (His work (deed)of the Spirit of the perfect Law of Liberty which is Christ will be blessed)

2 Corinthians 3:17-18
[17] Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is , there is liberty. [18] But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed (transformed) into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

O vain man .... faith without the works of the Spirit abides alone, and is dead works that perish. We are set free by the Son, the perfect Law of Liberty to serve the living God. Where the Law of Liberty is...there is Life and fruits from that tree which IS Christ.

 

[H. Richard]

You completely ignored ---snip

Like I said, people will completely ignore the clear FACTS brought out in my post and fail to address them. They wish to cover them up with a bunch of other scriptures that have no relations to the FACTS I posted.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Like I said, people will completely ignore the clear FACTS brought out in my post and fail to address them. They wish to cover them up with a bunch of other scriptures that have no relations to the FACTS I posted.

Okay. Then you tell me what is the perfect law of Liberty James speaks of?

 

[VictoryinJesus]

In my opinion the book of James is devoid of the gospel of grace as taught by Paul.

Again what is the perfect law of Liberty spoken of in James if not grace found in Christ, which goes hand-in-hand with the Liberty spoken of in Galatians 5:13-14 ? For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty(Christ); only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love (Spirit)serve one another. [14] For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Galatians 5:22-24
[22] But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, [23] Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. [24] And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

What is the ‘royal law’ spoken of in James if not the perfect Law of Liberty which is Christ, which IS grace?
James 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

Repeated over and over throughout scripture. 1 John 4:18-21 There is no fear in love(Christ); but perfect love(Christ) casts out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love(Christ). [19] We love him, because he first loved us. [20] If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen? [21] And this commandment have we from him(Christ), That he who loveth God love his brother also.

 

[farouk]

Again what is the perfect law of Liberty spoken of in James if not grace found in Christ, which goes hand-in-hand with the Liberty spoken of in Galatians 5:13-14 ? For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty(Christ); only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love (Spirit)serve one another. [14] For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Galatians 5:22-24
[22] But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, [23] Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. [24] And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

What is the ‘royal law’ spoken of in James if not the perfect Law of Liberty which is Christ, which IS grace?
James 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

Repeated over and over throughout scripture. 1 John 4:18-21 There is no fear in love(Christ); but perfect love(Christ) casts out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love(Christ). [19] We love him, because he first loved us. [20] If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen? [21] And this commandment have we from him(Christ), That he who loveth God love his brother also.

I think that Paul and James are basically at one; the Holy Spirit at times has led them both to emphasize different aspects of divine revelation, but there is no fundamental contradiction.

 

[Enoch111]

I think that Paul and James are basically at one; the Holy Spirit at times has led them both to emphasize different aspects of divine revelation, but there is no fundamental contradiction.

That's correct. Not that Paul failed to include good works in the Christian walk. His focus was on justification in the eyes of God. On the other hand, James had probably found many claiming to be justified but producing no fruit. Therefore he focused on the necessity of a living faith which produces good works and provides evidence of genuine faith before men. This is all tied together in Ephesians 2:8-10.

 

[farouk]

That's correct. Not that Paul omitted to include good works in the Christian walk. His focus was on justification in the eyes of God. On the other hand, James had probably found many claiming to be justified but producing no fruit. Therefore he focused on the necessity of a living faith which produces good works and provides evidence of genuine faith before men. This is all tied together in Ephesians 2:8-10.

In that section of Ephesians 2, both aspects of the truth are well balanced.

 

[H. Richard]

Again what is the perfect law of Liberty spoken of in James if not grace found in Christ, which goes hand-in-hand with the Liberty spoken of in Galatians 5:13-14 ? For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty(Christ); only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love (Spirit)serve one another. [14] For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.----snip

What do you think about James getting his facts wrong????????????????? That is what this thread is all about.

All you wish to do is to ignore them by trying to change the subject. Until you comment on the FACTS that are wrong I see no reason to let you change the subject to something other than the FACTS in the OP.

 

[Helen]

I find the book of James such a MIXTURE...he seems to talk out of both sides of his mouth at the same time .

 

[farouk]

I find the book of James such a MIXTURE...he seems to talk out of both sides of his mouth at the same time .

Well. maybe the author - by the Spirit - wanted his readers to think about various aspects of the same subject..?