All who are not taken up to meet the Lord in the air when He comes will be left behind and killed.

WPM · 2025-04-25T16:30:51-0500

Davidpt said:
Plenty to support it except some of you are clueless. That unless something comes right out and says so, such as Matthew 19:28, for example, that this supports a millennium after the 2nd coming, that means Premils have no biblical corroboration for their interpretation of Revelation 20:1-6.

Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

No mention of a thousand years in this passage. That then means Premils can't use this passage to support anything in Revelation 20:4-6, right? What a way to reason things, that unless something comes right out and says so, it can't mean that then, whatever one might be taking it to mean. IOW, Premils are not allowed to deduce anything but Amils are? For example, Revelation 20:4-6. Nowhere in those verses does it say one way or the other where the thousand years reign is taking place.

But even so, Amils insist it is meaning in heaven in a disembodied state, thus they deduce that. But when Premils do the same thing, deduce where the reign is taking place, now all of a sudden one isn't supposed to deduce anything, that unless something comes right out and plainly says so, it can't be true then. Where then in Revelation 20:4-6 does it plainly say that the reigning is taking place in heaven? Nowhere. Therefore, you, just like Premils, have to deduce that based on other Scriptures. Except when Premils do that, it is bad. When Amils do it, it is good.

This shows how bereft you are of any credible biblical support. This teaches nothing about your imaginary corrupt future millennium.

1. Where in Matthew 19:28, or anywhere else in Scripture, do you consider definitely corroborate the Premillennial interpretation of Revelation 20 that there are two distinct physical resurrection days (the first for the righteous, the second for the wicked) separated by a literal 1000 years+?
2. Where in Matthew 19:28, or anywhere else in Scripture, does it mention "resurrection days" (plural), pertaining to the end?
3. Where in Matthew 19:28, or anywhere else in Scripture, do you consider definitely teaches there are two distinct future judgement days (that will see all mankind stand before Christ to give account for their lives) separated by a literal 1000 years+?
4. Where in Matthew 19:28, or anywhere else in Scripture, does it mention "judgement days" (plural), in regard to the end?
5. Where in Matthew 19:28, or anywhere else in Scripture, do you consider definitely corroborates the Premillennial interpretation of Revelation 20 that Satan will be bound for a time-span of 1000 years after the Second Advent, then released for a "little season" to deceive the nations, and then destroy them?

Spiritual Israelite · 2025-04-25T16:37:27-0500

Davidpt said:
Plenty to support it except some of you are clueless.

How does Luke 17:26-37 support Premill? Why are you trying to talk about anything but the passage that this thread is about? You said a little bit about it, and then I responded, and now you're back to trying to talk about anything but that passage.

Davidpt said:
That unless something comes right out and says so, such as Matthew 19:28, for example, that this supports a millennium after the 2nd coming, that means Premils have no biblical corroboration for their interpretation of Revelation 20:1-6.

There are several scriptures that come right out and say that Jesus has been reigning since His resurrection (Matthew 28:18, Ephesians 1:19-22, Colossians 1:12-13, Revelation 1:5-6, etc.). Do you have any scriptures which clearly say He will reign for a long time on the earth after He returns?

Davidpt said:
Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

No mention of a thousand years in this passage. That then means Premils can't use this passage to support anything in Revelation 20:4-6, right?

How does judging equate to ruling for a thousand years? Do you see Matthew 25:31-46 saying anything about Jesus ruling for a long time on earth rather than judging people?

Where do you have no clear scriptures to support your view? Amills have a lot of clear scriptures to support our view.

Davidpt said:
What a way to reason things, that unless something comes right out and says so, it can't mean that then, whatever one might be taking it to mean.

It doesn't always have to say so explicitly, but why would scripture NEVER clearly and straightforwardly teach Premill?

Davidpt said:
IOW, Premils are not allowed to deduce anything but Amils are? For example, Revelation 20:4-6. Nowhere in those verses does it say one way or the other where the thousand years reign is taking place.

But even so, Amils insist it is meaning in heaven in a disembodied state, thus they deduce that. But when Premils do the same thing, deduce where the reign is taking place, now all of a sudden one isn't supposed to deduce anything, that unless something comes right out and plainly says so, it can't be true then. Where then in Revelation 20:4-6 does it plainly say that the reigning is taking place in heaven? Nowhere. Therefore, you, just like Premils, have to deduce that based on other Scriptures. Except when Premils do that, it is bad. When Amils do it, it is good.

Can you stop your whining for a little while and address Luke 17:26-37 in more depth? Why do you try to deny that Luke 17:31-33 is related to the second coming of Christ? Do you believe that Luke 17:26-30 is related to the second coming? How about Luke 17:34-37?

Spiritual Israelite · 2025-04-25T16:43:02-0500

WPM said:
This shows how bereft you are of any credible biblical support. This teaches nothing about your imaginary corrupt future millennium.

1. Where in Matthew 19:28, or anywhere else in Scripture, do you consider definitely corroborate the Premillennial interpretation of Revelation 20 that there are two distinct physical resurrection days (the first for the righteous, the second for the wicked) separated by a literal 1000 years+?
2. Where in Matthew 19:28, or anywhere else in Scripture, does it mention "resurrection days" (plural), pertaining to the end?
3. Where in Matthew 19:28, or anywhere else in Scripture, do you consider definitely teaches there are two distinct future judgement days (that will see all mankind stand before Christ to give account for their lives) separated by a literal 1000 years+?
4. Where in Matthew 19:28, or anywhere else in Scripture, does it mention "judgement days" (plural), in regard to the end?
5. Where in Matthew 19:28, or anywhere else in Scripture, do you consider definitely corroborates the Premillennial interpretation of Revelation 20 that Satan will be bound for a time-span of 1000 years after the Second Advent, then released for a "little season" to deceive the nations, and then destroy them?

Exactly! Where does that verse say anything in any way, shape or form about anyone being ruled for a thousand years or a long time? Nowhere! Why do Premills equate judging people with ruling over people for a thousand years? Do they try to claim that it takes Jesus a thousand years to judge the sheep and the goats?

Matthew 19:28 does not support Premill in any way, shape or form! Yet, that is the kind of verse that is part of the foundation of their doctrine! Meanwhile, the scriptures that form the foundation of Amill doctrine are all clear, straightforward scriptures.

claninja · 2025-04-26T09:09:57-0500

Spiritual Israelite said:
Did you read the entire original post? The context of what Jesus was talking about related to what he said about the flood and about what happened in Sodom. In those events everyone either survived or was killed and He said "Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.".

How about you tell us how you interpret the passage.

I'm not questioning the wicked being destroyed and the righteous being saved on the day the son of man is revealed. I'm questioning the scope of your a priori assumption - is jesus' intention globally or locally.

Luke 17:30-31 30so will it be on the day when the Son of Man is revealed.31On that day, let the one who is on the housetop, with his goods in the house, not come down to take them away, and likewise let the one who is in the field not turn back.
Matthew 24:16-17 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let the one who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house,

Notice, Luke, in vs 31, gives a similar warning to Matthew. The warning is about fleeing - flee, don't go back into your house for your things, or don't turn back if you are in a field. This warning doesn't appear to be indicative of nor does it fit with a global event. Why would a Christian be warned not to go back into their house nor turn back in the field in regards to the 2nd coming? Where can one flee to if its global? That doesn't really make sense. Christians don't need to flee destruction if they put on immortality and are lifted up into the air. However, Jesus' Jewish 1st century audience would need to flee Judea when the roman armies came to destroy and slaughter.

Commentaries on Luke 17:31 ->

Matthew Henry
Thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. When Christ came to destroy the Jewish nation by the Roman armies, that nation was found in such a state of false security as is here spoken of.

Barnes (vs 30)
Even thus ... - Destruction came upon the old world, and upon Sodom, "suddenly;" when they were engaged in other things, and little expecting this. "So" suddenly and unexpectedly, says he, shall destruction come upon the Jewish people. See the notes at Matthew 24.

Matthew Poole
These words seem to relate singly to the destruction of Jerusalem

Gill
In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop,.... Either for diversion or devotion, when he shall hear that the Roman armies are approaching to Jerusalem, to besiege it

Cambridge
It is clear that in these warnings, as in Matthew 24, our Lord has distinctly in view the Destruction of Jerusalem, and the awful troubles and judgments which it brought, as being the first fulfilment of the Prophecy of His Advent.

Bengels
(in that day) that day, on which the kingdom of God shall come. The day of Jerusalem being besieged is meant: comp. Luke 17:34, note: a day which has many points (aspects under which it may be viewed) in common with the last day. Comp. Luke 17:22. After Jerusalem had been destroyed, Christianity was most freely propagated. See ch. Luke 21:28.

Edit - some of the commentaries I provided are from Premils. So using the passages in Luke as your main argument doesn't really apply to all premills.

Dave Watchman · 2025-04-26T09:21:27-0500

Spiritual Israelite said:
This passage is also a problem for premills, in general, because it doesn't leave any mortals to populate the earth when Jesus returns. We know those who are taken up to meet the Lord will be changed and have immortal bodies. As I showed here, those left behind are all killed. So, who exactly would the mortals be that populate the earth for a thousand years after His return in this case? It wouldn't be possible based on what Jesus taught.

All you have done is prove the premills wrong. That doesn't prove the amills correct. Both sides are wrong, only I am right. I sure wish I could help you old boys out. But I think you're pretty much entrenched in your various theologies.

Jesus also taught that He has gone to prepare a place for us, so that He would come back and take us to be where He is. If that were not true, would He have told us so?

The bottom line is that you are not going to be able to understand what is going to happen, in any great detail, by reading the Gospels, or the parables alone. We have a hot off the press update called the Revelation. The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His Servants. It gives a greater detail on the specifics. Ignoring Revelation is like having the best arm of your prophetic understanding tied behind your back. There had to be a reason why God would want us to be aware of the thousand years of Revelation 20.

Your OP is correct, but it's only a small slice of minutes when Christ comes. It only deals with the judgement of the living when Christ appears. Time is only just then beginning for the judgement of the dead from all the ages, and for the judgment of the angels. And neither of these are the final judgement, or the so called White Throne Judgment.

Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world?

"Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by you, are you incompetent to try trivial cases? Do you not know that we are to judge angels?

And the "saints" are only ever going to all be alive again at the time when Christ appears. That's when this Pauline phase of the judgement process will begin. And it takes the better part of 1000 literal years in the Father's House with many rooms. We are going to go over every lost person's life, all of their days, and see why they could not be saved. It's no small matter. We, especially the people impacted by violent crime, will assist in recommending with how many stripes each lost person, and each fallen angel, will endure before they are annihilated. Some will be beaten with few stripes, some with many. I'd hate to be Hitler. Leave room for God's wrath. He will repay.

This can only happen after the thousand years are completed, after the second resurrection, when the dead march across the broad plain of the earth.

Christ will rule, WITH the Saints, for that thousand years. You will see. Remember I told you so. I was right. Lol.

But you are correct, at the second visitation, it's like what the old bartender says at closing time:

"You might not have to go Home,

but you can't stay here.

Peaceful Sabbath.

Spiritual Israelite · 2025-04-26T09:25:31-0500

claninja said:
I'm not questioning the wicked being destroyed and the righteous being saved on the day the son of man is revealed. I'm questioning the scope of your a priori assumption - is jesus' intention globally or locally.

Luke 17:30-31 30so will it be on the day when the Son of Man is revealed.31On that day, let the one who is on the housetop, with his goods in the house, not come down to take them away, and likewise let the one who is in the field not turn back.

Matthew 24:16-17 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let the one who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house,

There are similarities between the 70 AD local event and the future global event related to Jesus's coming at the end of this temporal age, so it's not surprising that Jesus would have occasionally said similar things in relation to each event.

Jesus twice referred to past events involving physical destruction that "destroyed them all" in relation to destroying all unbelievers. Nothing happened in 70 AD that "destroyed them all". You are missing the context of what Jesus was talking about. It fits His future second coming because on that day He will destroy all unbelievers (Matt 24:35-39, 1 Thess 5:2-3, 2 Thess 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-13, Rev 19:17-18, Rev 20:9).

claninja said:
Notice, Luke, in vs 31, gives a similar warning to Matthew. The warning is about fleeing - flee, don't go back into your house for your things, or don't turn back if you are in a field. This warning doesn't appear to be indicative of nor does it fit with a global event. Why would a Christian be warned not to go back into their house nor turn back in the field in regards to the 2nd coming? Where can one flee to if its global? That doesn't really make sense.

I would agree if that's what Jesus was intending to say, but I don't believe He was being literal there, but rather was talking about the kind of mindset that someone should have before that day comes so that they don't end up like Lot's wife when the day does come.

claninja said:
Commentaries on Luke 17:31 ->

Matthew Henry
Thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. When Christ came to destroy the Jewish nation by the Roman armies, that nation was found in such a state of false security as is here spoken of.

Barnes (vs 30)
Even thus ... - Destruction came upon the old world, and upon Sodom, "suddenly;" when they were engaged in other things, and little expecting this. "So" suddenly and unexpectedly, says he, shall destruction come upon the Jewish people. See the notes at Matthew 24.

Matthew Poole
These words seem to relate singly to the destruction of Jerusalem

Gill
In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop,.... Either for diversion or devotion, when he shall hear that the Roman armies are approaching to Jerusalem, to besiege it

Cambridge
It is clear that in these warnings, as in Matthew 24, our Lord has distinctly in view the Destruction of Jerusalem, and the awful troubles and judgments which it brought, as being the first fulfilment of the Prophecy of His Advent.

Bengels
(in that day) that day, on which the kingdom of God shall come. The day of Jerusalem being besieged is meant: comp. Luke 17:34, note: a day which has many points (aspects under which it may be viewed) in common with the last day. Comp. Luke 17:22. After Jerusalem had been destroyed, Christianity was most freely propagated. See ch. Luke 21:28.

Edit - some of the commentaries I provided are from Premils. So using the passages in Luke as your main argument doesn't really apply to all premills.

LOL. Why are you using the opinions of people that you strongly agree with about other things, and that you know I disagree with on those same things, to try to prove your point? Get serious. Their opinions mean nothing to me.

Spiritual Israelite · 2025-04-26T09:40:23-0500

Dave Watchman said:
All you have done is prove the premills wrong. That doesn't prove the amills correct. Both sides are wrong, only I am right. I sure wish I could help you old boys out. But I think you're pretty much entrenched in your various theologies.

LOL. Oh boy, here we go. Can't wait to read the rest of your arrogant nonsense.

Dave Watchman said:
Jesus also taught that He has gone to prepare a place for us, so that He would come back and take us to be where He is. If that were not true, would He have told us so?

You are blatantly twisting what He said. He did not say that "He would come back and take us to be where He is". Read what he said carefully. Set your SDA bias aside and read this objectively...

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Where did He say anything about taking us back to heaven with Him after He comes to meet us? Nowhere! You make the same mistake as those who believe in a pre-trib rapture by misinterpreting this passage. Why would we meet Him in the air if we were going to be taken to heaven afterwards? Why not just meet Him in heaven in that case? Why would He leave heaven only to turn around and go back there? That makes no sense.

No, He said He will come to meet us, which will be "in the air" (1 Thess 4:14-17) and then we will be with Him wherever He is for eternity. Nowhere does He say He brings us back to heaven at that point. He is bringing heaven to us! There will then be the new heavens and new earth together as one without the separation between heaven and earth that there is now.

I'm going to stop reading here for now because I want you to address this first before I continue reading the rest of what is almost certainly more nonsense and twisting of scripture.

Dave Watchman · 2025-04-26T10:14:33-0500

Spiritual Israelite said:
Set your SDA bias aside and read this objectively...

I'm not now, nor ever have been with the SDA's, or in a SDA Church.

Spiritual Israelite said:
Where did He say anything about taking us back to heaven with Him after He comes to meet us?

Simple comprehension. Like Sesame Street. "Here", "There". I am going "There" to prepare a place. And I will come back "Here", to take you to be where I am, which is "There". Maybe this is why you struggle so with the Revelation?

Spiritual Israelite said:
Why would we meet Him in the air if we were going to be taken to heaven afterwards?

The earth is swaying to and fro like a drunkard. The people are calling out to the rocks and the mountains to fall on them. We are safe with the White Horse Rider in the air as he does the Great Winepress deal, and the great feast of God Almighty.

Spiritual Israelite said:
Why not just meet Him in heaven in that case?

Again with the comprehension? He comes and gets us. We are "Here", and He went "There". And He comes and takes us to be where He is. We go together. When the winepress is finished, then to the wedding supper of the Lamb. That's in the Father's House with many rooms. That's where you're going to see me. And I'll be telling you I told you so. You might notice I will be shining a bit brighter than the average amill.

Spiritual Israelite said:
Why would He leave heaven only to turn around and go back there?

To start the the Pauline Phase of the judgement process, among other things.

Spiritual Israelite said:
That makes no sense.

I'm not surprised.

Spiritual Israelite said:
No, He said He will come to meet us, which will be "in the air" (1 Thess 4:14-17)

True, but that's just a small slice of time. A twinkling of an eye.

Spiritual Israelite said:
Nowhere does He say He brings us back to heaven at that point.

Sesame Street comprehension level required.

Spiritual Israelite said:
He is bringing heaven to us!

After the thousand years are finished, like a Bride prepared.

Spiritual Israelite said:
There will then be the new heavens and new earth together as one without the separation between heaven and earth that there is now.

Not until after the thousand years are finished.

Spiritual Israelite said:
I'm going to stop reading here for now because I want you to address this first before I continue reading the rest of what is almost certainly more nonsense and twisting of scripture.

Thank goodness. I honestly think you are more concerned with supporting a false theology than seeking the truth of the matter.

Peaceful Sabbath.

Spiritual Israelite · 2025-04-26T10:22:00-0500

Dave Watchman said:
I'm not now, nor ever have been with the SDA's, or in a SDA Church.

Your belief about this matches theirs, so that's why I thought that was the case. And you saying "Peaceful Sabbath" made me think that as well.

Dave Watchman said:
Simple comprehension. Like Sesame Street. "Here", "There". I am going "There" to prepare a place. And I will come back "Here", to take you to be where I am, which is "There". Maybe this is why you struggle so with the Revelation?

You are being blatantly dishonest here. He never said that He would come to meet them and then bring them back from where He came.

Dave Watchman said:
The earth is swaying to and fro like a drunkard. The people are calling out to the rocks and the mountains to fall on them. We are safe with the White Horse Rider in the air as he does the Great Winepress deal, and the great feast of God Almighty.

What is the reason we would need to be taken back to heaven at that point instead of beginning our immortal bodily lives in the new heavens and new earth at that point?

Dave Watchman said:
Again with the comprehension? He comes and gets us. We are "Here", and He went "There". And He comes and takes us to be where He is.

He never says that He is coming to meet us and then take us back to where He was. Why are you so intellectually dishonest?

Dave Watchman said:
Thank goodness. I honestly think you are more concerned with supporting a false theology than seeking the truth of the matter.

I honestly know that you don't know me at all and you are 100% wrong about that. You are clearly extremely arrogant ("You're all wrong and only I am right" - Wow!). Until you humble yourself, you will not understand the truth of this matter.

Dave Watchman · 2025-04-26T10:58:47-0500

Spiritual Israelite said:
Your belief about this matches theirs, so that's why I thought that was the case. And you saying "Peaceful Sabbath" made me think that as well.

I think they are correct on a lot, but I have too many important disagreements with them to be a part of their true tent, or one tent, or whatever thing they are trying to do. They haven't had any "new light" shining for them since the lost their "prophetess". Sorry guys.

Usually they say: "Happy Sabbath".

Peaceful Sabbath is more like Shabbat Shalom.

Spiritual Israelite said:
What is the reason we would need to be taken back to heaven at that point instead of beginning our immortal bodily lives in the new heavens and new earth at that point?

Same as I said here:

Dave Watchman said:
Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world?

"Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by you, are you incompetent to try trivial cases? Do you not know that we are to judge angels?
And the "saints" are only ever going to all be alive again at the time when Christ appears. That's when this Pauline phase of the judgement process will begin. And it takes the better part of 1000 literal years in the Father's House with many rooms. We are going to go over every lost person's life, all of their days, and see why they could not be saved. It's no small matter. We, especially the people impacted by violent crime, will assist in recommending with how many stripes each lost person, and each fallen angel, will endure before they are annihilated. Some will be beaten with few stripes, some with many. I'd hate to be Hitler. Leave room for God's wrath. He will repay.

This can only happen after the thousand years are completed, after the second resurrection, when the dead march across the broad plain of the earth.

Christ will rule, WITH the Saints, for that thousand years. You will see. Remember I told you so. I was right. Lol.

Add up an estimate of every person who has ever lived, but misses out on meeting the Lord in the air when He Appears. Add to that whatever might be the number of fallen angels. We, the saints, will review the lives of each one of them during the Pauline Phase of the judgement process. That is going to take some careful time and consideration.

By the time these unfortunate individuals are annihilated, after the thousand years are finished, there will never be any questions remaining with regard to their salvation, or lack thereof.

And their punishment will be decided and carefully metered out, according to their transgression.

In the Books of Daniel and Revelation there are 18 prophetic time periods. There can be day for a year translation, like in the case of Daniel 9, but each of the prophetic time periods are literal time.

18 Prophetic Time Periods

1. Time, times and half a time (saints persecuted – Daniel 7:25)

2. 2,300 evenings and mornings (until temple restored – Daniel 8:14)

3. 70 weeks (determined upon the Jews, Messiah crucified – Daniel 9:24,25)

4. Time, times and half a time (when completed, power of the holy people broken – Daniel 12:7)

5. 1,290 days (from the end of the daily to the setting up of the abomination – Daniel 12:11)

6. 1,335 days (blessed is the one who waits for and reaches this day – Daniel 12:12)

7. Half hour of silence (at the opening of the 7th seal – Revelation 8:1)

8. 5 months (length of torture upon those not having the seal of God – Revelation 9:5)

9. Hour, day, month and year (punctiliar event when war begins – Revelation 9:15)

10. 42 months (Gentiles trample holy city – Revelation 11:2)

11. 1,260 days (Two Witnesses empowered for this length of time – Revelation 11:3)

12. 3.5 days (bodies of Two Witnesses lie in the street – Revelation 11:11)

13. 1,260 days (woman fled into the desert – Revelation 12:6)

14. Time, times and half a time (woman fled into the desert – Revelation 12:14)

15. 42 months ( beast was allowed to exercise authority – Revelation 13:5)

16. One hour (ten kings join with beast – Revelation 17:12)

17. One day, one hour (Babylon’s destruction begins – Revelation 18:8,19)

18. 1,000 years (Satan in the abyss – Revelation 20:2)

You can have 1000 symbolic cattle on 1000 symbolic hills, but there is no such thing as symbolic time. You can't cut 70 weeks off from a tree.

Peaceful Sabbath,

Spiritual Israelite · 2025-04-26T11:04:33-0500

Dave Watchman said:
I think they are correct on a lot, but I have too many important disagreements with them to be a part of their true tent, or one tent, or whatever thing they are trying to do. They haven't had any "new light" shining for them since the lost their "prophetess". Sorry guys.

Usually they say: "Happy Sabbath".

Peaceful Sabbath is more like Shabbat Shalom.

So, are you part of any denomination who believes like you or not?

Dave Watchman said:
Same as I said here:

Add up an estimate of every person who has ever lived, but misses out on meeting the Lord in the air when He Appears. Add to that whatever might be the number of fallen angels. We, the saints, will review the lives of each one of them during the Pauline Phase of the judgement process. That is going to take some careful time and consideration.

By the time these unfortunate individuals are annihilated, after the thousand years are finished, there will never be any questions remaining with regard to their salvation, or lack thereof.

And their punishment will be decided and carefully metered out, according to their transgression.

In the Books of Daniel and Revelation there are 18 prophetic time periods. There can be day for a year translation, like in the case of Daniel 9, but each of the prophetic time periods are literal time.

18 Prophetic Time Periods

1. Time, times and half a time (saints persecuted – Daniel 7:25)

2. 2,300 evenings and mornings (until temple restored – Daniel 8:14)

3. 70 weeks (determined upon the Jews, Messiah crucified – Daniel 9:24,25)

4. Time, times and half a time (when completed, power of the holy people broken – Daniel 12:7)

5. 1,290 days (from the end of the daily to the setting up of the abomination – Daniel 12:11)

6. 1,335 days (blessed is the one who waits for and reaches this day – Daniel 12:12)

7. Half hour of silence (at the opening of the 7th seal – Revelation 8:1)

8. 5 months (length of torture upon those not having the seal of God – Revelation 9:5)

9. Hour, day, month and year (punctiliar event when war begins – Revelation 9:15)

10. 42 months (Gentiles trample holy city – Revelation 11:2)

11. 1,260 days (Two Witnesses empowered for this length of time – Revelation 11:3)

12. 3.5 days (bodies of Two Witnesses lie in the street – Revelation 11:11)

13. 1,260 days (woman fled into the desert – Revelation 12:6)

14. Time, times and half a time (woman fled into the desert – Revelation 12:14)

15. 42 months ( beast was allowed to exercise authority – Revelation 13:5)

16. One hour (ten kings join with beast – Revelation 17:12)

17. One day, one hour (Babylon’s destruction begins – Revelation 18:8,19)

18. 1,000 years (Satan in the abyss – Revelation 20:2)

You can have 1000 symbolic cattle on 1000 symbolic hills, but there is no such thing as symbolic time. You can't cut 70 weeks off from a tree.

Peaceful Sabbath,

All of those time periods are symbolic. The judgment will occur in eternity so we will have all the time in the world to take part in the judgment. What about Satan's little season that occurs after the thousand years? How does that fit with your view?

claninja · 2025-04-26T11:07:15-0500

Spiritual Israelite said:
There are similarities between the 70 AD local event and the future global event related to Jesus's coming at the end of this temporal age, so it's not surprising that Jesus would have occasionally said similar things in relation to each event.

Jesus twice referred to past events involving physical destruction that "destroyed them all" in relation to destroying all unbelievers. Nothing happened in 70 AD that "destroyed them all". You are missing the context of what Jesus was talking about. It fits His future second coming because on that day He will destroy all unbelievers (Matt 24:35-39, 1 Thess 5:2-3, 2 Thess 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-13, Rev 19:17-18, Rev 20:9).

I don’t think the main point of the sodom and Noah stories is “kill them all” on a global scale. If that’s what you think, then I would have to ask what verses in Luke 17 set that context for this?

I think the context begins in vs 20 and the arrival of the kingdom. So Instead I think the main point is the “suddenness” at which destruction would come on those continuing about their everyday lives, since Jesus uses a “local” example and a “global” example.

Spiritual Israelite said:
I would agree if that's what Jesus was intending to say, but I don't believe He was being literal there, but rather was talking about the kind of mindset that someone should have before that day comes so that they don't end up like Lot's wife when the day does come.

This doesn’t make any sense. Why would Christians need the mindset of fleeing, and not going back into their house, nor turning back in the field, if they would just be transformed in the twinkling of an eye and sucked up into the air to meet the Lord?

Spiritual Israelite said:
LOL. Why are you using the opinions of people that you strongly agree with about other things, and that you know I disagree with on those same things, to try to prove your point? Get serious. Their opinions mean nothing to me.

Then you missed the point - you are using Luke 17 as evidence that God “kills them all” at the 2nd coming, thus “disproving” premil that there are survivors post 2nd coming. However, If not all of premil believes Luke 17 is about the 2nd coming, as evidenced by several premil commentators stating it’s about 70ad, then your argument isn’t applicable nor does it disprove to premil in general.

Spiritual Israelite · 2025-04-26T11:24:03-0500

claninja said:
I don’t think the main point of the sodom and Noah stories is “kill them all” on a global scale. If that’s what you think, then I would have to ask what verses in Luke 17 set that context for this?

That is not what I said. What I'm saying is that Jesus indicated there is some sense that all believers would survive and all unbelievers would be killed in relation to His second coming. How can that be related to what happened in 70 AD when not all unbelievers in Jerusalem were killed? Also, it's quite clear that His coming is a global event, as evidenced by what He said in Matthew 24:35-39 where He related heaven and earth passing away to the day of His second coming and in passages like 2 Peter 3:10-13.

claninja said:
I think the context begins in vs 20 and the arrival of the kingdom. So Instead I think the main point is the “suddenness” at which destruction would come on those continuing about their everyday lives, since Jesus uses a “local” example and a “global” example.

Not really sure what your point is here. What was the reason He pointed out in each destruction event example He gave that it "destroyed them all" and then saying "Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed" if He was not saying that all would be destroyed in some sense at His second coming as well?

claninja said:
This doesn’t make any sense. Why would Christians need the mindset of fleeing, and not going back into their house, nor turning back in the field, if they would just be transformed in the twinkling of an eye and sucked up into the air to meet the Lord?

LOL. Are you even trying to see my point?

Luke 17:31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. 32 Remember Lot's wife. 33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

I'm talking about the mindset we should all have which is that we should all be willing to lose our lives (give up our lives) for Jesus if need be and if anyone has the mindset that they would rather cling to their lives in this evil world than lose their lives for Him, then, like Lot's wife, they will be destroyed. Anyone with that kind of mindset when He comes again will be destroyed.

claninja said:
Then you missed the point - you are using Luke 17 as evidence that God “kills them all” at the 2nd coming, thus “disproving” premil that there are survivors post 2nd coming. However, If a not all of premil believes Luke 17 is about the 2nd coming, as evidenced by several premil commentators stating it’s about 70ad, then your argument isn’t applicable nor does it disprove to premil in general.

LOL. Why does everything have to be spelled out to you? Obviously, I'm refuting the belief that most Premils have of this passage. If the context of the passage is in relation to the future coming of Christ, then that would clearly support Amil rather than Premil. I understand that some may not agree that the passage relates to His second coming, but I think that's complete nonsense and barely worth my time to even talk about.

Dave Watchman · 2025-04-26T12:18:08-0500

Spiritual Israelite said:
So, are you part of any denomination who believes like you or not?

Just they that keep the commandments of God, and have the faith of Jesus.

Spiritual Israelite said:
All of those time periods are symbolic. The judgment will occur in eternity so we will have all the time in the world to take part in the judgment.

That sounds radical even to me. Even the Preterists will agree the 70 weeks are literal time. 70 weeks of years, 490 years, from 457BC to 34AD.

Spiritual Israelite said:
What about Satan's little season that occurs after the thousand years? How does that fit with your view?

It's not really a season measured in months, like the word "hora" can be. The translations that call it a "short time" or a "little while" must better describe it. His people waiting for him won't need to worry about getting a bite to eat in that time. I'm not sure it would be worthy to be included in the 18 Prophetic Time Periods. If it did, Paul's: "twinkling of an eye" might belong there too.

Satan's "short time" is the NT parallel to the OT Gog Magog, what might have happened if the Old Time Jews would have redeemed the 70 weeks. The NT Gog Magog has the same end result. It's just that we won't need to burn any wooden weapons for 7 years. The Beloved City, with us in it, is surrounded by the lost who have just experienced the second resurrection. Every knee has just bowed, but they know they are doomed and condemned to die. They know they didn't make it. Weeping and gnashing of teeth time.

Satan's little season is very short now. The lost surround the camp of the saints and the Beloved City. Maybe they can see though the open gates and see the tree of life. I imagine it is going to be a sight like no other. For us and for them. How must it look to them to see the bright city of life, which they will never be a part of, as they are about to be annihilated. And for us to look out at the lost stretching out as far as we can see, like the sand of the sea. I doubt God will drag that out for too long of a chronos.

Satan must somehow convince them they can take the City by force. Maybe if they can get in and gain access to the tree of life, they might have a chance. Based on their sheer numbers, like the sands of the sea, it might be possible. Satan deceives them one last time. They surround the city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them.

I think that will be a Day like no other.

Peaceful Sabbath.

Scott Downey · 2025-04-26T12:28:14-0500

claninja said:
I don’t think the main point of the sodom and Noah stories is “kill them all” on a global scale. If that’s what you think, then I would have to ask what verses in Luke 17 set that context for this?

I think the context begins in vs 20 and the arrival of the kingdom. So Instead I think the main point is the “suddenness” at which destruction would come on those continuing about their everyday lives, since Jesus uses a “local” example and a “global” example.

This doesn’t make any sense. Why would Christians need the mindset of fleeing, and not going back into their house, nor turning back in the field, if they would just be transformed in the twinkling of an eye and sucked up into the air to meet the Lord?

Then you missed the point - you are using Luke 17 as evidence that God “kills them all” at the 2nd coming, thus “disproving” premil that there are survivors post 2nd coming. However, If not all of premil believes Luke 17 is about the 2nd coming, as evidenced by several premil commentators stating it’s about 70ad, then your argument isn’t applicable nor does it disprove to premil in general.

The parable of the Minas though is consistent with all the second coming teaching of Christ and His apostles, where at His return, Christ slays all His enemies, v27.

This parable begins with the disciples thinking the kingdom of God would appear immediately, but Christ tells them the nobleman, Himself, is going on a journey to a far country to receive for Himself a kingdom and return. Meaning it is going to be a while.

The Parable of the Minas

11 Now as they heard these things, He spoke another parable, because He was near Jerusalem and because they thought the kingdom of God would appear immediately. 12 Therefore He said: “A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom and to return. 13 So he called ten of his servants, delivered to them ten [e]minas, and said to them, ‘Do business till I come.’ 14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a delegation after him, saying, ‘We will not have this man to reign over us.’

15 “And so it was that when he returned, having received the kingdom, he then commanded these servants, to whom he had given the money, to be called to him, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading. 16 Then came the first, saying, ‘Master, your mina has earned ten minas.’ 17 And he said to him, ‘Well done, good servant; because you were faithful in a very little, have authority over ten cities.’ 18 And the second came, saying, ‘Master, your mina has earned five minas.’ 19 Likewise he said to him, ‘You also be over five cities.’

20 “Then another came, saying, ‘Master, here is your mina, which I have kept put away in a handkerchief. 21 For I feared you, because you are [f]an austere man. You collect what you did not deposit, and reap what you did not sow.’ 22 And he said to him, ‘Out of your own mouth I will judge you, you wicked servant. You knew that I was an austere man, collecting what I did not deposit and reaping what I did not sow. 23 Why then did you not put my money in the bank, that at my coming I might have collected it with interest?’

24 “And he said to those who stood by, ‘Take the mina from him, and give it to him who has ten minas.’ 25 (But they said to him, ‘Master, he has ten minas.’) 26 ‘For I say to you, that to everyone who has will be given; and from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. 27 But bring here those enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, and slay them before me.’ ”

*****************

Yeah, they are gone, killed by the Lord at His return.

Scott Downey · 2025-04-26T12:36:50-0500

Malachi 4 is about the coming great Day of the Lord
That day will burn up all the proud and wicked, all of the unrighteous, none will survive.
God says they will be ashes under the feet of those who fear the great and wonderful Name of the Lord.

That this is proven about Christ's return is also the mention of Elijah coming first, who Jesus says was John the Baptist

The Great Day of God

1 “For behold, the day is coming,
Burning like an oven,
And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble.
And the day which is coming shall burn them up,”
Says the Lord of hosts,
“That will leave them neither root nor branch.

2 But to you who fear My name
The Sun of Righteousness shall arise
With healing in His wings;
And you shall go out
And grow fat like stall-fed calves.

3 You shall trample the wicked,
For they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet
On the day that I do this,”
Says the Lord of hosts.

4 “Remember the Law of Moses, My servant,
Which I commanded him in Horeb for all Israel,
With the statutes and judgments.

5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet
Before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.

6 And he will turn
The hearts of the fathers to the children,
And the hearts of the children to their fathers,
Lest I come and strike the earth with a curse.”

*******************************
Matthew 11

7 As they departed, Jesus began to say to the multitudes concerning John: “What did you go out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken by the wind? 8 But what did you go out to see? A man clothed in soft garments? Indeed, those who wear soft clothing are in kings’ houses. 9 But what did you go out to see? A prophet? Yes, I say to you, and more than a prophet. 10 For this is he of whom it is written:

‘Behold, I send My messenger before Your face,
Who will prepare Your way before You.’
11 “Assuredly, I say to you, among those born of women there has not risen one greater than John the Baptist; but he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. 12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and the violent take it by force. 13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.

14 And if you are willing to receive it, he is Elijah who is to come.

15 He who has ears to hear, let him hear!

Truth7t7 · 2025-04-26T12:39:36-0500

Davidpt said:
As to something like that, I think all views are going to have a problem with things of that nature, to some degree.

No problem whatsoever, God's words clearly teach that "Mortal" turns to "Immortal" in the twinkling of an eye, judgement is complete, death is swallowed up in victory, eternity begins forever and forver

1 Corinthians 15:52-54KJV
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Spiritual Israelite · 2025-04-26T13:01:39-0500

Dave Watchman said:
That sounds radical even to me. Even the Preterists will agree the 70 weeks are literal time. 70 weeks of years, 490 years, from 457BC to 34AD.

LOL at saying 70 weeks is literal time. If that was the case it would be 490 days instead of 490 years. Many Amills agree with me that the time periods in Revelation are symbolic, so it's not radical at all. Especially when considering that it's in the most highly symbolic book in the entire Bible with the book of Daniel being it's only challenger to that claim.

As for the judgment taking place in eternity, why would that seem radical to you? Jesus is the Judge, so you actually think He will judge billions of people in real time? Why would He want to put Himself through that kind of drudgery? No, the judgment will be in eternity.

Revelation 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them.

The judgment takes place after heaven and earth pass away at which point eternity is ushered in.

Dave Watchman said:
It's not really a season measured in months, like the word "hora" can be. The translations that call it a "short time" or a "little while" must better describe it.

No, they describe it perfectly because that's the Greek words mean.

Dave Watchman said:
His people waiting for him won't need to worry about getting a bite to eat in that time. I'm not sure it would be worthy to be included in the 18 Prophetic Time Periods. If it did, Paul's: "twinkling of an eye" might belong there too.

What?! You are trying to equate Satan's little season with the twinkling of an eye? How could what is described there, Satan going out into the world to deceive the "ethnos", occur in only a moment of time?

Dave Watchman said:
Satan's "short time" is the NT parallel to the OT Gog Magog, what might have happened if the Old Time Jews would have redeemed the 70 weeks. The NT Gog Magog has the same end result. It's just that we won't need to burn any wooden weapons for 7 years. The Beloved City, with us in it, is surrounded by the lost who have just experienced the second resurrection. Every knee has just bowed, but they know they are doomed and condemned to die. They know they didn't make it. Weeping and gnashing of teeth time.

I have no idea what you're talking about here. Nothing you're saying here matches up with what is described in Revelation 20:7-9.

Dave Watchman said:
Satan's little season is very short now.

What do you mean? It occurs after the thousands years end (Rev 20:3,7) and, in your view, the thousand years hasn't even started yet.

Dave Watchman said:
The lost surround the camp of the saints and the Beloved City. Maybe they can see though the open gates and see the tree of life. I imagine it is going to be a sight like no other. For us and for them. How must it look to them to see the bright city of life, which they will never be a part of, as they are about to be annihilated. And for us to look out at the lost stretching out as far as we can see, like the sand of the sea. I doubt God will drag that out for too long of a chronos.

Satan must somehow convince them they can take the City by force. Maybe if they can get in and gain access to the tree of life, they might have a chance. Based on their sheer numbers, like the sands of the sea, it might be possible. Satan deceives them one last time. They surround the city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them.

No idea of what you're talking about. Who are these lost people that you're talking about exactly? Where do they come from? You have the earth as being desolate during the thousand years, right?

Dave Watchman said:
I think that will be a Day like no other.

No, Jesus coming to meet us in the air and rid the world of sin and death forever will be a Day like no other.

All who are not taken up to meet the Lord in the air when He comes will be left behind and killed.

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