Run that by me again, Moses

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Matthias

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Yahweh told Moses what to say and write down.

Deuteronomy 29:1 -These are the words of the covenant which the Lord commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, besides the covenant which He made with them in Horeb.

Yes. Moses is the mediator between Yahweh and the people. Moses, as the duly authorized and appointed agent of Yahweh is sent by Yahweh. He is functioning as Yahweh but isn’t Yahweh himself.

In another example (Exodus 7:1), Yahweh himself made Moses Yahweh to Pharaoh.
 

Matthias

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Readers miss out on so much when they read the Hebrew Bible without comprehending that Moses both is and is not Yahweh.

Jewish monotheists keep that concept fixed in mind when we read the New Testament and believe that Jesus of Nazareth is the prophet like Moses whom Yahweh himself promised (in Deuteronomy 18:15,18) to raise up and send.
 

CadyandZoe

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Thank you. No, I’m not at all suggesting that Moses mistakenly believed he was Yahweh. You put it gently when you said that is unlikely. It would have made him a lunatic.

”In Jewish law, a shaliah … (literally ‘emissary’ or ‘messenger’) is a legal agent. In practice, ‘the shaliah for a person is as the person himself.’ Accordingly, a shaliah performs an act of legal significance for the benefit of the sender, as opposed to him or herself.”


Anyone could have quoted Yahweh. This incident isn’t that.

Just as the Pharisees demanded that Jesus tell them by what authority he was speaking and acting, the Israelites had questioned by what authority Moses was speaking and acting. In both cases, Jesus and Moses spoke and acted by the authority of Yahweh.
What you said sounds right. Thanks for that.
 
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Matthias

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You will likely remember the video clip I’ve provided of Dr. Witherington (a trinitarian scholar) acknowledging and explaining in a lecture why “Jesus wasn’t and isn’t Yahweh.”

I hadn’t intended to post the clip in this thread but, once others brought Jesus into the conversation about Moses, I‘ve decided to.


The trinitarian is adamant about it, and he is adamant about it because the Semitic concept is found in the Hebrew Bible and in the New Testament. He is reading and explaining the New Testament witness of Jesus as a Jewish monotheist would in regard to this matter.

P.S.

For readers who might be wondering, Dr. Witherington believes the Trinity (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) is the one God, three persons - Yahweh, Jesus, and the Holy Spirt. (Which is not what Jewish monotheists believe about the one God.)
 
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Pearl

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Thank you. You didn’t identify the translation you’re quoting but it is an example of a translation which I pointed out renders the passage as Moses quoting Yahweh. The phrase that you placed in bold makes that abundantly clear, but that is a translator‘s decision. It isn’t what the Hebrew actually says.
My translation is NIV
 
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Wrangler

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(John 5:30, KJV)

It’s unthinkable that Yahweh himself would ever say, “I can of mine own self do nothing.”

It’s easily thinkable (and entirely reasonable) that someone, some self, other than Yahweh himself would say, “I can of mine own self do nothing.”
You got that right. It’s ridiculous to suppose otherwise.
 

bdavidc

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“And Moses summoned all Israel and said to them, ‘You have seen all that Yahweh did before your eyes in the lanf of Egypt to Pharaoh and all his servants and all his land; the great trials which your eyes have seen, those great signs and wonders. Yet to this day Yahweh has not given you a heart to know, nor eyes to see, nor ears to hear. And I have led you forty years in the wilderness; your clothes have not worn out on you, and your sandal has not worn out on your foot. You have not eaten bread, nor have you drunk wine or strong drink, in order that you might know that I am Yahweh your God.’”

(Deuteronomy 29:2-6, LSB)

Moses didn’t say in verse 6 “in order that you might know that he is Yahweh is your God”. Moses said in verse 6 “in order that you might know that I am Yahweh your God”.

What is Moses telling them / us in verse 6?
In Deuteronomy 29:6, when Moses says, “in order that you might know that I am Yahweh your God,” he is not claiming to be Yahweh Himself. This is a misunderstanding of the speaker’s role. Moses is acting as God's mouthpiece, delivering God's words directly to the people. This is a common pattern throughout Scripture where a prophet or leader speaks on behalf of God using the first person, not because they are God, but because they are relaying His exact words.

This is confirmed earlier in Deuteronomy 29:2, where it clearly says, “And Moses summoned all Israel and said to them…” What follows is Moses quoting God. The same pattern appears throughout the Old Testament. For example, in Exodus 7:1–2, God tells Moses, “See, I have made you as God to Pharaoh... You shall speak all that I command you.” Similarly, the prophets often say, “Thus says the Lord,” and then speak in the first person as if God Himself were speaking, because they are quoting His words directly.

So, verse 6 should be understood as Moses delivering God’s message verbatim. It does not mean Moses is Yahweh, but rather that Moses is faithfully speaking God's words, and Yahweh is the one declaring, “I am Yahweh your God.” This is consistent with the biblical role of a prophet and is not a claim to divinity by Moses.
 
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Matthias

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This is a common pattern throughout Scripture where a prophet or leader speaks on behalf of God using the first person, not because they are God, but because they are relaying His exact words.

See John 12:49.

This is confirmed earlier in Deuteronomy 29:2, where it clearly says, “And Moses summoned all Israel and said to them…” What follows is Moses quoting God. The same pattern appears throughout the Old Testament. For example, in Exodus 7:1–2, God tells Moses, “See, I have made you as God to Pharaoh... You shall speak all that I command you.” Similarly, the prophets often say, “Thus says the Lord,” and then speak in the first person as if God Himself were speaking, because they are quoting His words directly.

So, verse 6 should be understood as Moses delivering God’s message verbatim. It does not mean Moses is Yahweh, but rather that Moses is faithfully speaking God's words, and Yahweh is the one declaring, “I am Yahweh your God.” This is consistent with the biblical role of a prophet and is not a claim to divinity by Moses.

See Deuteronomy 18:15,18.

What you stated is precisely what Jewish monotheism teaches us.
 

bdavidc

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Readers miss out on so much when they read the Hebrew Bible without comprehending that Moses both is and is not Yahweh.

Jewish monotheists keep that concept fixed in mind when we read the New Testament and believe that Jesus of Nazareth is the prophet like Moses whom Yahweh himself promised (in Deuteronomy 18:15,18) to raise up and send.
Readers of the true Word of God are not missing anything by rejecting the false idea that Moses is, in any sense, Yahweh. In fact, holding to what Scripture actually says protects against deception. Moses is consistently presented in the Bible as a servant, prophet, and mediator between God and the people of Israel, but never as divine. Deuteronomy 34:10 says, “And there has not arisen a prophet since in Israel like Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face,” affirming his unique role, but clearly identifying him as a man, not God.

To suggest that Moses “both is and is not Yahweh” is not only unsupported by Scripture, it directly contradicts it. Numbers 12:6–8 shows God distinguishing Himself from Moses, calling him “My servant Moses,” and never blurring the line between Creator and created. Deuteronomy 6:4 declares, “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.” Isaiah 42:8 makes it plain: “I am the LORD, that is My name; My glory I will not give to another.” God does not share His identity or glory with anyone, not even Moses.

While Moses spoke on God’s behalf and performed mighty works through His power, he remained fully human and separate from the divine nature. Twisting Scripture to suggest otherwise is a dangerous distortion that opens the door to false teaching. Proverbs 30:6 warns, “Do not add to His words, or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar.”

Deuteronomy 18:15 and 18 rightly point to a prophet like Moses whom God would raise up, and Acts 3:22–23 confirms this was fulfilled in Jesus Christ. But unlike Moses, Jesus is more than a prophet. He is the eternal Word made flesh (John 1:1, 14), the Son of God who surpasses Moses in every way (Hebrews 3:3–6). Sound doctrine comes from rightly dividing the Word of truth (2 Timothy 2:15), not from reinterpreting Scripture to fit mystical or man-made ideas. Moses was never Yahweh, and to say otherwise is to lead people away from the truth.
 

Matthias

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Readers of the true Word of God are not missing anything by rejecting the false idea that Moses is, in any sense, Yahweh. In fact, holding to what Scripture actually says protects against deception. Moses is consistently presented in the Bible as a servant, prophet, and mediator between God and the people of Israel, but never as divine. Deuteronomy 34:10 says, “And there has not arisen a prophet since in Israel like Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face,” affirming his unique role, but clearly identifying him as a man, not God.

To suggest that Moses “both is and is not Yahweh” is not only unsupported by Scripture, it directly contradicts it. Numbers 12:6–8 shows God distinguishing Himself from Moses, calling him “My servant Moses,” and never blurring the line between Creator and created. Deuteronomy 6:4 declares, “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.” Isaiah 42:8 makes it plain: “I am the LORD, that is My name; My glory I will not give to another.” God does not share His identity or glory with anyone, not even Moses.

While Moses spoke on God’s behalf and performed mighty works through His power, he remained fully human and separate from the divine nature. Twisting Scripture to suggest otherwise is a dangerous distortion that opens the door to false teaching. Proverbs 30:6 warns, “Do not add to His words, or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar.”

Deuteronomy 18:15 and 18 rightly point to a prophet like Moses whom God would raise up, and Acts 3:22–23 confirms this was fulfilled in Jesus Christ. But unlike Moses, Jesus is more than a prophet. He is the eternal Word made flesh (John 1:1, 14), the Son of God who surpasses Moses in every way (Hebrews 3:3–6). Sound doctrine comes from rightly dividing the Word of truth (2 Timothy 2:15), not from reinterpreting Scripture to fit mystical or man-made ideas. Moses was never Yahweh, and to say otherwise is to lead people away from the truth.

See the Jewish law of agency.
 

Matthias

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A very brief introduction to the Jewish law of agency.
 

Matthias

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Numbers 12:6–8 shows God distinguishing Himself from Moses, calling him “My servant Moses,” and never blurring the line between Creator and created. Deuteronomy 6:4 declares, “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.” Isaiah 42:8 makes it plain: “I am the LORD, that is My name; My glory I will not give to another.” God does not share His identity or glory with anyone, not even Moses.

I agree.

The suffering servant of Yahweh had this to say -

“I have given them the glory which you have given me, so that they may be one, just as we are one.”

(John 17:22, NTFE)

As Dr. Witherington pointed out (see post #24), “Jesus wasn’t, and isn’t, Yahweh.”
 

bdavidc

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See the Jewish law of agency.
The truth doesn’t come from man-made traditions or legal interpretations like the so-called "Jewish law of agency"—it comes from Scripture alone. God's Word is the final authority, and we are commanded not to add to it or take away from it (Deuteronomy 4:2, Proverbs 30:6). While the concept of agency may help explain certain cultural practices, it cannot override or redefine the plain teaching of Scripture. When it comes to understanding who God is, what He has done, and how He works, we must look to what He has revealed in His Word, not to man’s systems or philosophical constructs. Jesus affirmed this when He said, “Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth” (John 17:17). Sola Scriptura—Scripture alone—is the foundation of truth.
 

Matthias

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The truth doesn’t come from man-made traditions or legal interpretations like the so-called "Jewish law of agency"—it comes from Scripture alone. God's Word is the final authority, and we are commanded not to add to it or take away from it (Deuteronomy 4:2, Proverbs 30:6). While the concept of agency may help explain certain cultural practices, it cannot override or redefine the plain teaching of Scripture. When it comes to understanding who God is, what He has done, and how He works, we must look to what He has revealed in His Word, not to man’s systems or philosophical constructs. Jesus affirmed this when He said, “Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth” (John 17:17). Sola Scriptura—Scripture alone—is the foundation of truth.

The Jewish law of agency isn’t a man-made tradition.
 

Wick Stick

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“And Moses summoned all Israel and said to them, ‘You have seen all that Yahweh did before your eyes in the lanf of Egypt to Pharaoh and all his servants and all his land; the great trials which your eyes have seen, those great signs and wonders. Yet to this day Yahweh has not given you a heart to know, nor eyes to see, nor ears to hear. And I have led you forty years in the wilderness; your clothes have not worn out on you, and your sandal has not worn out on your foot. You have not eaten bread, nor have you drunk wine or strong drink, in order that you might know that I am Yahweh your God.’”

(Deuteronomy 29:2-6, LSB)

Moses didn’t say in verse 6 “in order that you might know that he is Yahweh is your God”. Moses said in verse 6 “in order that you might know that I am Yahweh your God”.

What is Moses telling them / us in verse 6?
I looked at the Hebrew and the King James is a little confusing in its translation. My own rendering of verses 4-6:

The LORD has not given you a heart to perceive, or eyes to see, or ears to hear, unto this day. And [He] has led you forty years in the wilderness: your clothes haven't grown old upon you, and your shoes haven't grown old upon thy foot. You have not eaten bread, neither have ye drunk wine or strong wine: that You might know that I the LORD am your God.

Verse 5 the translator supplied the word "I" making it seem like Moses led them in the Wilderness, but in Hebrew it continues from verse 4 meaning it's actually God that led them in the Wilderness (the cloud/flame). "He" is the correct pronoun here, I think.

At the end of verse 6 the phrase ANI YHVH ELHM is also a little funky in translation, giving I AM THE LORD YOUR GOD where the construction is more like I THE LORD AM YOUR GOD. To be fair to the translator, this phrase is always hard to translate, as it can be unclear whether the words are being used as names, titles, or for their regular meanings.

Basically, what I got out of it is close in meaning to the translation Pearl gave (though the bolded bit here doesn't appear in Hebrew):
Verses 5-6 - Yet the Lord says, “During the forty years that I led you through the wilderness, your clothes did not wear out, nor did the sandals on your feet. 6 You ate no bread and drank no wine or other fermented drink. I did this so that you might know that I am the Lord your God.”
 

bdavidc

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The suffering servant of Yahweh had this to say -

“I have given them the glory which you have given me, so that they may be one, just as we are one.”

(John 17:22, NTFE)

As Dr. Witherington pointed out (see post #24), “Jesus wasn’t, and isn’t, Yahweh.”
John 17:22 must be understood in the context of the entire Gospel of John, which consistently reveals the divine nature of Jesus Christ. Throughout this chapter, Jesus is praying to the Father, but that does not deny His divinity. Instead, it reflects the relationship between the Father and the Son. Earlier in John’s Gospel, it is made clear who Jesus truly is: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God” (John 1:1). Then in verse 14, it says, “The Word became flesh and dwelt among us.” Jesus plainly says in John 10:30, “I and the Father are one.” He also accepts worship (John 9:38), something no mere servant or prophet would do unless He was God.

The statement from Dr. Witherington is not supported by Scripture. In fact, Thomas called Jesus “My Lord and my God” in John 20:28, and Jesus did not rebuke him. Colossians 2:9 confirms, “For in Him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.” Scripture is clear: Jesus is the suffering servant, the Messiah, and also fully divine. Denying His deity is not a minor doctrinal disagreement, it is a rejection of the very foundation of the gospel. The truth about Christ doesn’t come from scholars or opinions, but from the Word of God itself.

Dr. Witherington may be a scholar, but based on his rejection of key doctrines like the full deity of Christ, he cannot be considered a faithful biblical teacher. His views should be tested carefully against Scripture and not accepted simply because of academic status. As 1 John 4:1 warns, “Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.”

Truth does not come from scholarship or tradition, but from the Word of God alone.
 

bdavidc

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The Jewish law of agency isn’t a man-made tradition.
Once again the so-called “Jewish law of agency” is not found in Scripture, nor is it taught as divine revelation. It is a man-made interpretive framework developed through rabbinic tradition to explain how a representative can act on behalf of another. While it may serve as a cultural or legal concept within Judaism, it is not a biblical doctrine. Nowhere in the Bible does God authorize or teach a formal "law of agency" that redefines identity between persons. God's Word warns us not to rely on traditions or human reasoning that go beyond what is written (Colossians 2:8). The truth is revealed through Scripture alone, not through later interpretations or constructs added to explain it. When people use this concept to blur the clear biblical distinction between God and His servants, or to deny the deity of Christ by saying He’s merely a “representative” and not fully God, they're not honoring Scripture, they're twisting it like you are. God's truth stands on what He has said, not on systems created to explain it away.

If you choose not to believe the Bible, that is between you and God. But know this, each of us will give an account for what we have done with His Word. I will stand before Him having believed what He has spoken. But trying to twist or change His Word is a serious offense. Scripture warns in Proverbs 30:6, “Add thou not unto His words, lest He reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.” And in Revelation 22:18–19, God gives a solemn warning against adding to or taking away from His Word. The truth doesn’t change to fit our opinions. God’s Word is eternal, and He will not overlook those who distort it (Isaiah 40:8).
 

Matthias

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Once again the so-called “Jewish law of agency” is not found in Scripture, nor is it taught as divine revelation. It is a man-made interpretive framework developed through rabbinic tradition to explain how a representative can act on behalf of another. While it may serve as a cultural or legal concept within Judaism, it is not a biblical doctrine. Nowhere in the Bible does God authorize or teach a formal "law of agency" that redefines identity between persons. God's Word warns us not to rely on traditions or human reasoning that go beyond what is written (Colossians 2:8). The truth is revealed through Scripture alone, not through later interpretations or constructs added to explain it. When people use this concept to blur the clear biblical distinction between God and His servants, or to deny the deity of Christ by saying He’s merely a “representative” and not fully God, they're not honoring Scripture, they're twisting it like you are. God's truth stands on what He has said, not on systems created to explain it away.

If you choose not to believe the Bible, that is between you and God. But know this, each of us will give an account for what we have done with His Word. I will stand before Him having believed what He has spoken. But trying to twist or change His Word is a serious offense. Scripture warns in Proverbs 30:6, “Add thou not unto His words, lest He reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.” And in Revelation 22:18–19, God gives a solemn warning against adding to or taking away from His Word. The truth doesn’t change to fit our opinions. God’s Word is eternal, and He will not overlook those who distort it (Isaiah 40:8).

I’m a Jewish monotheist who believes that Jesus of Nazareth is the Messiah, Son of the living God. I believe the Bible.

Which came first in the church: Jewish unitary monotheism or trinitary monotheism?
 

Matthias

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John 17:22 must be understood in the context of the entire Gospel of John, which consistently reveals the divine nature of Jesus Christ. Throughout this chapter, Jesus is praying to the Father, but that does not deny His divinity. Instead, it reflects the relationship between the Father and the Son. Earlier in John’s Gospel, it is made clear who Jesus truly is: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God” (John 1:1). Then in verse 14, it says, “The Word became flesh and dwelt among us.” Jesus plainly says in John 10:30, “I and the Father are one.” He also accepts worship (John 9:38), something no mere servant or prophet would do unless He was God.

The statement from Dr. Witherington is not supported by Scripture. In fact, Thomas called Jesus “My Lord and my God” in John 20:28, and Jesus did not rebuke him. Colossians 2:9 confirms, “For in Him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.” Scripture is clear: Jesus is the suffering servant, the Messiah, and also fully divine. Denying His deity is not a minor doctrinal disagreement, it is a rejection of the very foundation of the gospel. The truth about Christ doesn’t come from scholars or opinions, but from the Word of God itself.

Dr. Witherington may be a scholar, but based on his rejection of key doctrines like the full deity of Christ, he cannot be considered a faithful biblical teacher. His views should be tested carefully against Scripture and not accepted simply because of academic status. As 1 John 4:1 warns, “Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.”

Truth does not come from scholarship or tradition, but from the Word of God alone.

Dr. Witherington doesn’t reject “the full deity of Christ”. You’ve slandered him and owe him an apology.