Limited atonement !

BreadOfLife · Apr 13, 2025

brightfame52 said:
You refuted yourself since you dont believe or understand one scripture you quoted, Limited atonement is a gospel truth.

That doesn't even make sense. Refute the Scriptural evidence I presented.
Limited Atonement is a Calvinist heresey . . .

I John 2:1-2
My little children, I am writing this to you so that you may not sin; but if any one does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and he is the expiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD.

I Tim. 2:3-6
This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for ALL

II Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow about his promise as some count slowness but is forbearing toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that ALL should reach repentance

CadyandZoe · Apr 13, 2025

brightfame52 said:
So do you believe Christ died for all humanity or for some of mankind only ?

We are trying to make sense of verses like,

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;

In a profound theological statement, Peter asserts that Christ's sacrifice on the cross was made once and for all, embodying a singular and complete act of redemption. However, as he continues in the chapter, Peter deepens this understanding by elaborating on the significance of the cross. He describes it as not merely an event but as "an appeal to God for a good conscience through the resurrection of Jesus Christ." This suggests that the crucifixion is intertwined with the promise of resurrection, highlighting a transformative pathway to a clear and righteous conscience before God.

If I’m interpreting your perspective correctly, I agree with your assertion that Christ’s sacrifice was intended for a portion of humanity. However, the entirety of this concept is far more nuanced and intricate than what a simple yes or no would encompass. There are layers of theology and interpretation that add depth to understanding the implications of this belief.

Rightglory · Apr 13, 2025

CadyandZoe said:
Both are true at the same time. God chooses who will come to him in faith to seek his forgiveness. Have you heard about the circumcision of the heart?

There is no text in all of scripture that says God chooses who will believe. The Holy Spirit works upon all men. One of the works of the Holy Spirit is to call all men to repentance. II Pet 3:9, Rom 2:4ff, Mark 2:217. This would be moot if it was God who chose who would believe.
Every single human being that ever lived will give an account of what they did with the knowledge of God that was given to each and their response to His call. Rom 1:18-24.
Also, circumcision of the heart occurs after one's belief, repentance, part of baptism and receiving the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Rightglory · Apr 13, 2025

Runningman said:
The Bible doesn't use explicit language about salvation either being "universally applicable" or "limited atonement" but it is described repeatedly as conditional and something that can be potentially lost.

I need some clarifiction on your statement. It seems confusing to me. Are you saying atonement is either universal or limited, or are you describing who it is applicable to.
For me, the atonement was universal, but also completed. Man does not participate in the atonement. He participates in one aspect, namely his response to God's universal call to repentance. Whether man accepts or rejects is all man's choice. God does not interfere with man's free choice. He surely influences but does not make the choice.

brightfame52 · Apr 13, 2025

BreadOfLife said:
That doesn't even make sense. Refute the Scriptural evidence I presented.
Limited Atonement is a Calvinist heresey . . .

I John 2:1-2
My little children, I am writing this to you so that you may not sin; but if any one does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and he is the expiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD.

I Tim. 2:3-6
This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for ALL

II Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow about his promise as some count slowness but is forbearing toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that ALL should reach repentance

Prove how these go against limited atonement

brightfame52 · Apr 13, 2025

CadyandZoe said:
We are trying to make sense of verses like,

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;

In a profound theological statement, Peter asserts that Christ's sacrifice on the cross was made once and for all, embodying a singular and complete act of redemption. However, as he continues in the chapter, Peter deepens this understanding by elaborating on the significance of the cross. He describes it as not merely an event but as "an appeal to God for a good conscience through the resurrection of Jesus Christ." This suggests that the crucifixion is intertwined with the promise of resurrection, highlighting a transformative pathway to a clear and righteous conscience before God.

If I’m interpreting your perspective correctly, I agree with your assertion that Christ’s sacrifice was intended for a portion of humanity. However, the entirety of this concept is far more nuanced and intricate than what a simple yes or no would encompass. There are layers of theology and interpretation that add depth to understanding the implications of this belief.

So do you believe Christ died for all humanity or for some of mankind only ?

Runningman · Apr 13, 2025

Rightglory said:
I need some clarifiction on your statement. It seems confusing to me. Are you saying atonement is either universal or limited, or are you describing who it is applicable to.
For me, the atonement was universal, but also completed. Man does not participate in the atonement. He participates in one aspect, namely his response to God's universal call to repentance. Whether man accepts or rejects is all man's choice. God does not interfere with man's free choice. He surely influences but does not make the choice.

Christ died for all in the world, but the sin sacrifice is not accessed except for by faith. Trust God that His sinless human messiah was an acceptable sacrifice to atone for sins. Not everyone believes that, but everyone can believe that if they want. They can also choose to stop believing it and, as Paul said, they have believed in vain.

1 Cor. 15
1Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, and in which you stand firm. 2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

Runningman · Apr 13, 2025

CadyandZoe said:
The Bible suggests that while an individual’s faith may waver or even be abandoned, the gift of salvation cannot be forfeited. Salvation, as understood within the Scriptures, is an act of divine grace in which God not only brings about spiritual awakening but also ensures the steadfastness of that faith. Therefore, when God engages in the process of saving, He guarantees the preservation of every soul entrusted to Him, ensuring that none are lost in the journey of faith.

There are many places in the New Testament we can find support for this idea, but Peter sums it up well.

1 Peter 1:3-5 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Peter emphatically asserts that salvation cannot be lost, describing it as a sacred inheritance that remains untouched and incorruptible. While it is possible for individuals to squander or lose what they currently possess, Peter’s message centers on a divine inheritance that is firmly anchored in a living hope—a promise that stems from the transformative experience of being born again. This inheritance is not only enduring but also radiant, reflecting the profound security that comes from an unbreakable faith.

Good point, but when precisely is salvation obtained? I believe there can be the promise of the guarantee of it now, but the Bible also speaks of eternal life as something that comes in the future, post judgement. Why would God give people eternal life and then judge them? I believe God judges and then after that, if they are deemed worthy, they get eternal life.

This is an unpopular Scriptural truth, but it's nevertheless what the Bible says.

Luke 20
35But those who are considered worthy to share in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage. 36In fact, they can no longer die, because they are like the angels. And since they are sons of the resurrection, they are sons of God.

Romans 2
5But because of your hard and unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of wrath, when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. 6God “will repay each one according to his deeds.” 7To those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow wickedness, there will be wrath and anger.

brightfame52 · Apr 14, 2025

Limited Atonement is truth because Christ died only for Gods elect, or Sheep Jn 10:11

11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

And of course the Sheep doesnt mean the whole human race or everyone without exception. It does refer to them which are the elect according to the foreknowledge of God 1 Pet 1:2

2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

The sprinkling of the Blood refers to His death, when He shed His Blood for them. 11

CadyandZoe · Apr 14, 2025

Runningman said:
Good point, but when precisely is salvation obtained? I believe there can be the promise of the guarantee of it now, but the Bible also speaks of eternal life as something that comes in the future, post judgement. Why would God give people eternal life and then judge them? I believe God judges and then after that, if they are deemed worthy, they get eternal life.

Good question. Paul teaches us that at the Last Trumpet, those in Christ will be taken up into the air to be with him forever. Since they are forgiven, they don't experience judgment. God has already decided to give them eternal life.

Rightglory · Apr 14, 2025

Runningman said:
Christ died for all in the world, but the sin sacrifice is not accessed except for by faith. Trust God that His sinless human messiah was an acceptable sacrifice to atone for sins. Not everyone believes that, but everyone can believe that if they want. They can also choose to stop believing it and, as Paul said, they have believed in vain.

1 Cor. 15
1Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, and in which you stand firm. 2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

Ok, thanks for the clarification.

rebuilder 454 · Apr 14, 2025

brightfame52 said:
@marks

This pertains to the elect, those whom God chose and called 1 Cor 1:26-28

26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

Just call it what it is ...predestination.
Error big time

CadyandZoe · Apr 14, 2025

rebuilder 454 said:
Just call it what it is ...predestination.
Error big time

Is predestination not found in the Bible?

brightfame52 · Apr 14, 2025

rebuilder 454 said:
Just call it what it is ...predestination.
Error big time

Adversarial comment

rebuilder 454 · Apr 14, 2025

CadyandZoe said:
Is predestination not found in the Bible?

The error is in making it either <> or.
It is both.
We are both chosen and choose Him.
So simple.
Yet it gets debated into oblivion.

Men searching endlessly...missing the mark.

CadyandZoe · Apr 14, 2025

rebuilder 454 said:
The error is in making it either <> or.
It is both.
We are both chosen and choose Him.
So simple.
Yet it gets debated into oblivion.

Men searching endlessly...missing the mark.

Legolas chose to fight for the free peoples of Middle Earth, and yet, J.R.R Tolkien predestined that he would.

brightfame52 · Apr 14, 2025

rebuilder 454 said:
The error is in making it either <> or.
It is both.
We are both chosen and choose Him.
So simple.
Yet it gets debated into oblivion.

Men searching endlessly...missing the mark.

No the elect are chosen, and then they believe and follow Him. And its the regenerated man that believes and follow, not the flesh

Ritajanice · Apr 14, 2025

The spirit is regenerated/ Born Again in us...” mind blowing “....I could not even know God, had he not birthed me in the Spirit = Spirit gives birth to spirit.

Dash RipRock · Apr 14, 2025

Ritajanice said:
I don’t see Calvinists as mentally ill...or that they are reprobate

Very sad that when people are believing and teaching the opposite of what God's Word says, their understanding (mind) has been corrupted and they have become reprobate (unteachable).

Once you get to know chauvinism better you'll know what I'm talking about as they falsely claim Jesus lied when Jesus said if He was lifted up He would draw all men unto Himself. Those believing Jesus is a liar won't be found in God's Kingdom.

There's numerous passages that prove limited atonement teaching is in opposition to what God's Word actually teaches but seeing there are numerous calvinists hanging around I'll spare them the agony of their demonic possession since they are unteachable (reprobate) having rejected scriptures passages that does not fit in their dark religious beliefs.

I feel sad for the calvinists just as I do for the Catholics and the Lutherans as they have been taught doctrines of men as though it was the Doctrine of Christ and rarely do we see any of these people recover themselves from the snare of the devil and come in to a saving relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ who must be worshiped in Spirit and Truth not demons and lies.

You folks can argue back and forth all you want. I've been there done that many times and it's a waste of time so I'll not get in to prolonged discussions with calvinists, Catholics or Lutherans and those claiming to be "reformed"

Dash RipRock · Apr 14, 2025

David Lamb said:
However, "whoever" ("whosoever" in older English) doesn't mean "everybody without exception." Take John 3:16:

Is that you Bill Clinton???

Remember "depends on what your definition is is" hlf

This is a classic example of how the devil changes the simple meaning of words and reading in to scripture something the scripture does not say.

Limited atonement !

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