Difficulty Reconciling

PS95 · Apr 4, 2025

GracePeace said:
Thanks for taking your time, but I can't agree with the idea that "true faith invariably works", bc John's Gospel says that many of the leaders believed, but they would not confess Him.

Read Luke 8 Parable of the sower--------

GracePeace said:
You may be hitting upon something that has some angle of truth to it, but, strictly speaking, it is not true.

As far as "those who fear are not perfected in love", it wouldn't have helped me, since "the one who keeps His commands is perfected in His love", so that could be read as "of course you won't be afraid if you do what He says, but you will abide in His love, as He says in John 15".

If you remain in His love you will want to obey Him. Love and obey is the only way.
Whoever thought it was a free get out of jail card to do whatever you want to do? Did you think it was a magic prayer and I'm saved and so now let's party? Although Billy Graham may have sounded like that as did the apostles- "Believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved" TRUE? Yes, but it doesn't END there. That is the starting point. A sincere person will look to see how to please the Lord.
Others will not and will go get drunk. Notice that Graham always said at the end of his gigs to find a good church and read your bible and he offered a calling number and lit. that was for a reason!- for growth.

Read the parable a few times.
Salvation is a gift- but it doesn't mean that you wont pick up your cross. It's about love. Do you love your SAVIOR? If so trust Him and obey Him. It's not one or the other. True faith loves Him and love wants to please by obedience. Why is that confusing?
Would you marry someone who said they loved you but never listened to you? Went out and partied instead of spending time with you? went on her merry way with her life and was just mere words of I love you? Went out and denied knowing you to others? (analogies all fall apart somewhere btw)

It's a relationship with the Lord and is to be faithful and honored.. is all I am saying.

Anyway, today I learned that I should not let my heart be troubled, but be at peace.

If you rest in His love and continue in your relationship you will find His peace. It takes time.

GracePeace · Apr 4, 2025

PS95 said:
Read Luke 8 Parable of the sower--------

If you've read, I'm sticking with John (Gospel and Epistles) for this thread.

PS95 said:
If you remain in His love you will want to obey Him. Love and obey is the only way.

Want is not the same as actually obeying.

PS95 said:
Whoever thought it was a free get out of jail card to do whatever you want to do? Did you think it was a magic prayer and I'm saved and so now let's party? Although Billy Graham may have sounded like that as did the apostles- "Believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved" TRUE? Yes, but it doesn't END there. That is the starting point. A sincere person will look to see how to please the Lord.
Others will not and will go get drunk. Notice that Graham always said at the end of his gigs to find a good church and read your bible and he offered a calling number and lit. that was for a reason!- for growth.

Read the parable a few times.
Salvation is a gift- but it doesn't mean that you wont pick up your cross. It's about love. Do you love your SAVIOR? If so trust Him and obey Him. It's not one or the other. True faith loves Him and love wants to please by obedience. Why is that confusing?
Would you marry someone who said they loved you but never listened to you? Went out and partied instead of spending time with you? went on her merry way with her life and was just mere words of I love you? Went out and denied knowing you to others? (analogies all fall apart somewhere btw)

It's a relationship with the Lord and is to be faithful and honored.. is all I am saying.

If you've read, you will know I already went the route of obedience, and, still, God rejected it, bc I didn't do it out of 100% love (I detected no reason, in Scripture, for reaching such a conclusion or reasoning/motivation), but obeyed out of both fear and love.

PS95 said:
If you rest in His love and continue in your relationship you will find His peace. It takes time

I'm not saying I am 100% right, or understand very well, but I'm finding it is my responsibility to be at peace. It isn't automatic.

Grailhunter · Apr 4, 2025

GracePeace said:
As previously stated, there is no answer in #414 (in fact, you've admitted you do not see a need to reconcile the two ideas), and, as stated, I've already made many posts where all the Scriptures were taken into consideration, and I have spent decades studying the entirety of the Scriptures, so, again, only for this thread I've stuck to John alone.

Post 414 explains that what is throwing you off.
Kool said enough.

GracePeace · Apr 4, 2025

Grailhunter said:
Post 414 explains that what is throwing you off.
Kool said enough.

Thanks

GracePeace · Apr 4, 2025

Grailhunter said:
Post 414 explains that what is throwing you off.
Kool said enough.

Irrespectively, I appreciate you and @PS95 interacting.

PS95 · Apr 4, 2025

GracePeace said:
If you've read, I'm sticking with John (Gospel and Epistles) for this thread.

Well that is extremely limiting the whole counsel of God. Not real smart..

GracePeace said:
Want is not the same as actually obeying.

I agree. What is it that you dont want to obey?

GracePeace said:
If you've read, you will know I already went the route of obedience, and, still, God rejected it, bc I didn't do it out of 100% love (I detected no reason, in Scripture, for reaching such a conclusion or reasoning/motivation), but obeyed out of both fear and love.

Ok well it sounds like maybe your heart isn't right. Why were you obeying? Out of love for Him? Or fear and trying to get a good grade? Were you trying to add to His work on the cross?

GracePeace said:
I'm not saying I am 100% right, or understand very well, but I'm finding it is my responsibility to be at peace. It isn't automatic.

You will never find peace in yourself. It only comes from above. If you keep your eyes on Jesus He will keep you in perfect peace. As long as you doubt and think that you can add to His work to save yourself you wont have peace.
accept his gift and be free- then go on to do what pleases Him out of your love and gratitude towards Him.
No other way works but the truth and He is the truth.

GracePeace · Apr 4, 2025

PS95 said:
Well that is extremely limiting the whole counsel of God. Not real smart..

As stated, I have studied "all God's counsel" on this issue for decades, and made many many threads discussing the same--in fact, this is my first and only thread where I'm trying to stick to John.

PS95 said:
I agree. What is it that you dont want to obey?

OK, so just bc you want to doesn't mean you do it, so works don't automatically flow from faith. That's my point.

PS95 said:
Ok well it sounds like maybe your heart isn't right. Why were you obeying? Out of love for Him? Or fear and trying to get a good grade? Were you trying to add to His work on the cross?

I already explained : love and fear.
I don't believe in the idea that what ever He did on the Cross is 100% decisive.

PS95 said:
You will never find peace in yourself. It only comes from above. If you keep your eyes on Jesus He will keep you in perfect peace. As long as you doubt and think that you can add to His work to save yourself you wont have peace.
accept his gift and be free- then go on to do what pleases Him out of your love and gratitude towards Him.
No other way works but the truth and He is the truth.

Of course if I didn't have any grace, I couldn't have peace--of course I don't mean I have peace apart from God in myself like some Hindu or Buddhist.

Jesus says "Do not let your heart be troubled"--that's a command. I do that.

Again, I reject the formulations you use, as "the whole counsel of God" doesn't justify such ideas, and, for the purposes of this thread, specifically, John's writings do not.

PS95 · Apr 4, 2025

GracePeace said:
As stated, I have studied "all God's counsel" on this issue for decades, and made many many threads discussing the same--in fact, this is my first and only thread where I'm trying to stick to John.

It's your choice but I don't think it's wise.

GracePeace said:
OK, so just bc you want to doesn't mean you do it, so works don't automatically flow from faith. That's my point.

Again that has not been the case in my life but if it is in yours perhaps there is something causing you to halt.

GracePeace said:
I already explained : love and fear.
I don't believe in the idea that what ever He did on the Cross is 100% decisive.

What? This is the PROBLEM--- "Whatever he did on the cross? Wasn't decisive"? HERE is where you are stuck. Why do you suppose I have been pointing you to the cross? You don't reply to that. Why not?
He took your nasty sins onto His own body and suffered, bled and died for you. THAT's what he did on the cross!!! He gave His life so you could be forgiven. Don't you believe that?

GracePeace said:
Of course if I didn't have any grace, I couldn't have peace--of course I don't mean I have peace apart from God in myself like some Hindu or Buddhist.

Jesus says "Do not let your heart be troubled"--that's a command. I do that.

Again, I reject the formulations you use, as "the whole counsel of God" doesn't justify such ideas, and, for the purposes of this thread, specifically, John's writings do not.

You are one stubborn cookie! tell me, why do you think that God points you to the cross and tells you that you want to save yourself?
I have given you the answer. I've been there, believe me. i have been through things that would make your hair curl. I suggest prayers to God to soften your heart and I will also pray for you. You are being your own enemy.

GracePeace · Apr 4, 2025

PS95 said:
Again that has not been the case in my life but if it is in yours perhaps there is something causing you to halt.

Well, Scripturally, that formulation has no justification. Already mentioned John 12.

PS95 said:
What? This is the PROBLEM--- "Whatever he did on the cross? Wasn't decisive"? HERE is where you are stuck. Why do you suppose I have been pointing you to the cross? You don't reply to that. Why not?
He took your nasty sins onto His own body and suffered, bled and died for you. THAT's what he did on the cross!!! He gave His life so you could be forgiven. Don't you believe that?

The leaders believed, but that faith didn't result in eternal life (Jn 12).

GracePeace · Apr 4, 2025

PS95 said:
What? This is the PROBLEM--- "Whatever he did on the cross? Wasn't decisive"? HERE is where you are stuck. Why do you suppose I have been pointing you to the cross? You don't reply to that. Why not?

He took your nasty sins onto His own body and suffered, bled and died for you.

Partly, I meant that Christ, and faith in Christ, accomplishes a lot of things, not just forgiveness.

Grailhunter · Apr 5, 2025

If Satan were to form denominations what would he come up with.

Next to cults the Jehovah’s Witnesses and Calvinists and Once Saved Always Saved are the most dangerous and most wrong Christian religions….near to demonic. The reason I say demonic is because Satan would want Christians to believe these error ridden beliefs. Jehovah’s Witnesses….Satan would want Christians to believe that Christ was not Divine. Once Saved Always Saved….Satan would want Christians to believe they could sin all they want and still go to Heaven. Calvinists….Satan would want Christians to believe that God is a monstrous puppet master. Beware and be warned.

CadyandZoe · Apr 5, 2025

GracePeace said:
OK
Remember, I am soliciting peoples' opinions on how to reconcile the two, so, since you don't see a need to reconcile the two, and have no answers to that effect, how were you hoping to help?

I would like to propose a thoughtful approach to Bible study that emphasizes understanding the author's intended meaning behind the text. It has become a common practice among many of our dear brothers and sisters to extract verses in isolation, which can lead to interpretations that are not only unproductive but can also cause misunderstandings and harm. Therefore, I encourage everyone—myself included—to delve into the broader context surrounding each verse. This may involve examining a complete paragraph or even an entire chapter to truly grasp the message being conveyed. By doing so, we can enhance our comprehension and ensure that we are faithfully representing the Scriptures in our discussions and reflections.

GracePeace said:
If eternal life hinges exclusively on believing in Christ, that happens in a single moment, and you have it, and it will not be in question any longer as long as you live; if eternal life hinges on doing good, then, even if you do already have it (because you believed in Christ), still, as long as you can fail to do good / as long as you live, whether or not you will (ultimately) have eternal life remains uncertain / in question.

Don't get trapped in the "either/or" line of thinking. Some things have attributes that are additive, i.e., "both/and". First of all, you and I both know that belief is not something we do and then walk away. We don't check off "faith" as if that was something we did once. I agree with you that faith is something we do and maintain every day.

Even though faith may initially seem like a single, decisive act, we recognize that it encompasses both thoughtful contemplation and purposeful action. Therefore, when encountering a verse that commands us to believe, we should not treat it as the absolute conclusion of the matter. Other scriptures highlight that genuine beliefs must naturally translate into specific behaviors. For example, Jesus instructs his disciples, "If you are my disciples, then love one another." In this context, love is portrayed not merely as an abstract feeling but as a tangible, beneficial action directed towards another person, emphasizing that true faith manifests through our deeds.

I have come to a significant realization regarding the concept of salvation. I no longer view it as a set of actions or thoughts that I must consciously perform in order to achieve it. Instead, I understand salvation as a transformative experience that is enacted upon me, rather than something strictly within my control.

John chapter 3 has played a crucial role in shaping my understanding of this belief. In this passage, Jesus emphasizes that the ability to perceive and enter the kingdom of God is contingent upon being "born again" or "born from above." This idea profoundly resonates with me, suggesting that the process of salvation is initiated by a divine influence, one that transcends human effort. It shifts my perspective to recognize that it is not merely through my deeds or beliefs that I attain salvation, but rather through a spiritual rebirth bestowed upon me. This change in mindset invites a deeper, more profound appreciation for the grace and mystery involved in the journey of faith.

GracePeace · Apr 5, 2025

CadyandZoe said:
I would like to propose a thoughtful approach to Bible study that emphasizes understanding the author's intended meaning behind the text. It has become a common practice among many of our dear brothers and sisters to extract verses in isolation, which can lead to interpretations that are not only unproductive but can also cause misunderstandings and harm. Therefore, I encourage everyone—myself included—to delve into the broader context surrounding each verse. This may involve examining a complete paragraph or even an entire chapter to truly grasp the message being conveyed. By doing so, we can enhance our comprehension and ensure that we are faithfully representing the Scriptures in our discussions and reflections.

Don't get trapped in the "either/or" line of thinking. Some things have attributes that are additive, i.e., "both/and". First of all, you and I both know that belief is not something we do and then walk away. We don't check off "faith" as if that was something we did once. I agree with you that faith is something we do and maintain every day.

Even though faith may initially seem like a single, decisive act, we recognize that it encompasses both thoughtful contemplation and purposeful action. Therefore, when encountering a verse that commands us to believe, we should not treat it as the absolute conclusion of the matter. Other scriptures highlight that genuine beliefs must naturally translate into specific behaviors. For example, Jesus instructs his disciples, "If you are my disciples, then love one another." In this context, love is portrayed not merely as an abstract feeling but as a tangible, beneficial action directed towards another person, emphasizing that true faith manifests through our deeds.

I have come to a significant realization regarding the concept of salvation. I no longer view it as a set of actions or thoughts that I must consciously perform in order to achieve it. Instead, I understand salvation as a transformative experience that is enacted upon me, rather than something strictly within my control.

John chapter 3 has played a crucial role in shaping my understanding of this belief. In this passage, Jesus emphasizes that the ability to perceive and enter the kingdom of God is contingent upon being "born again" or "born from above." This idea profoundly resonates with me, suggesting that the process of salvation is initiated by a divine influence, one that transcends human effort. It shifts my perspective to recognize that it is not merely through my deeds or beliefs that I attain salvation, but rather through a spiritual rebirth bestowed upon me. This change in mindset invites a deeper, more profound appreciation for the grace and mystery involved in the journey of faith.

Right, so it sounds like you affirm both that eternal life does hinge on faith, and it hinges on good works, but whoever "truly" believes will inevitably, bc they're born of God, do good deeds that eternal life hinges on.

Is that correct?

PS95 · Apr 5, 2025

GracePeace said:
Well, Scripturally, that formulation has no justification. Already mentioned John 12.

Are you speculating that in John 12:42-43 that those men who believed but feared the Jews lost their salvation? We need to be careful not to add to scripture. John doesn't tell us much there. It's two sentences. John was discussing Isaiah 6 where Isaiah saw Jesus' glory..and how the Jews were prophesied to reject Him even though signs were done before them by this King of glory..!
So, John goes on to say.." nevertheless, many, and even rulers believed in Him " that's wonderful, right? but they feared man above God so didn't confess Him. That is the reason John even brings this up.
While that isn't good and reveals their fearful and disloyal hearts at the time- it does not mean that they did not see their error later. Remember, Jesus had not yet been crucified. The scriptures point out Nicodemus and Joseph of Arimathea and I do conclude that those two were most likely in that crowd that John spoke about. Peter denied Christ three times and was forgiven. You must apply that to those men also. Joseph took Jesus' body into his own tomb. What does that tell you? Nicodemus assisted Joseph. Both members of the Sanhedrin, so it is logical to conclude that John included them in that passage because they were considered "authorities".
I know you refused the parable of the sower but when you do read it- know that is times in people lives-
All of us are growing in the Lord. We make many mistakes. Especially as new believers.
I hope that helps you to see what John was saying and why.

GracePeace said:
The leaders believed, but that faith didn't result in eternal life (Jn 12).

See above. You are assuming far too much. Did Peter lose his salvation? Maybe read what I wrote again.

I'm beginning to think that where you trouble lies is that you hear Jesus as a hard, critical, demanding man. I used to but no more. It was a terrible place to be. Did you grow up in an unloving home? I ask that because I was raised in a critical hypocritical home that lacked real love. I saw god as the same way. Unable to please and critical. It forms our thoughts about others to be raised that way. I thought that everyone was that way including God! It's a lie and a horrible lie straight from the pit! Everything that comes form the mouth of God is for our own good and not His. He loves mercy and justice and is kind and loving. His heart is tender toward His children. He makes it rain on the just and the unjust.
I know you don't want to go out of John but you can't tell me that you think Jesus lied when He said,
"come to me all who labor and take my yoke upon you and learn from Me- I am gentle and lowly in heart my burden is easy and light and you will find rest for your souls" Matt 11:28-30.
Do that. Go to Him and learn from Him. Searching the scriptures is fine but go to Him and learn that He cares for you. You appear to have anger and are laboring and worried. That is exactly why I keep pointing to to the cross to ponder it and his love and believe Him. you are still not fully trusting the Lord in your heart. Talk to Him about it. Cast all of your burdens on Him because he truly does care for you.

Why do you suppose I am replying to you? I felt called to. I haven't posted here in a long time, nor have I even read anything on here! I left this forum completely. I think it was last summer when I last posted. I have been in your shoes. I have shared what I believe to be your answer and that is to ponder the cross until you weep over your sins and know that your sins put Him on that cross-
You are angry and holding onto something from your past. Your past is gone and it needs to be left there. if you have been disciplined and it felt awful I hear you- count it as joy that He cared enough to discipline you. We don't do things the same way the Lord does. It can be a scary thing. His thoughts are not like ours, right? So while we may not fully understand many things we trust that his way is best. He did create us after all. that's kind of HUGE, huh? He knows what it takes to knock down our hateful untrusting hearts. Lay down all of your burdens- He is all you need. The rest will take care of itself as you grown in His love.

PS95 · Apr 5, 2025

Grailhunter said:
If Satan were to form denominations what would he come up with.

Next to cults the Jehovah’s Witnesses and Calvinists and Once Saved Always Saved are the most dangerous and most wrong Christian religions….near to demonic. The reason I say demonic is because Satan would want Christians to believe these error ridden beliefs. Jehovah’s Witnesses….Satan would want Christians to believe that Christ was not Divine. Once Saved Always Saved….Satan would want Christians to believe they could sin all they want and still go to Heaven. Calvinists….Satan would want Christians to believe that God is a monstrous puppet master. Beware and be warned.

Jws will say that they believe Jesus is divine. thing is, their Jesus is still dead. His body did not rise. And since an archangel's life force was put into Mary's womb and became Jesus- that life force went back to heaven to be re-created in Michael again. So they call Michael a divine god.. not to be worshiped but they are willing to bend a knee because that is obeisance.
Yeah so. the Jws on here do not tell you these things.
I am saddened by the many Christians on these board who feel they are learning from Jws such as Aunty Jane and do not understand that she is here for one reason and one reason only, and that is to gather up time spent in "her ministry" to gain her a resurrection.
Jws do not teach that their rank and file are born again, are members of the body of christ, are children of God, have Jesus as their mediator, are in the new covenant etc etc etc None of that applies to them- only to their lying leaders.
Jws do not believe that Jesus' death paid for anyone's sins but Adam's -and so a path was cleared them to earn salvation by obeying the watchtower leaders who are the ones who they believe go to heaven and to whom they obey.
it is so convoluted and utterly ridiculous which is why they wont tell you those thing out right, but it's what they've been taught regardless. it is wrapped in many deceptions. If you ask a Q you may get an answer that sounds reasonable-- but their words do NOT mean what you think. There is a whole lingo going on that is unique to them. Words don't mean the same thing that they do to you. that is a part of the deception. To them the gospel is Jesus returned invisibly in 1914 and chose them as His only church in 1919 and the rapture took place and He began ruling in heaven. yet heaven closed in 1935. Their teachings change daily so unless you are one of them you can not keep up. They can barely keep up. It's like being tossed and never able to come to the truth.
I have only touched on a small bit of their teachings. They thrive in arguing over words and twisting scriptures to demean the Lord while talking out of both sides of their mouths and the sadly the uninformed people here feed into that infestation. To much is 'assumed" that they must believe what you do. It is not so. They could not be further from the truth of the gospel.

I could never put them in the same list with a Calvinist. Be careful.

GracePeace · Apr 5, 2025

PS95 said:
Are you speculating that in John 12:42-43 that those men who believed but feared the Jews lost their salvation? We need to be careful not to add to scripture. John doesn't tell us much there. It's two sentences. John was discussing Isaiah 6 where Isaiah saw Jesus' glory..and how the Jews were prophesied to reject Him even though signs were done before them by this King of glory..!
So, John goes on to say.." nevertheless, many, and even rulers believed in Him " that's wonderful, right? but they feared man above God so didn't confess Him. That is the reason John even brings this up.
While that isn't good and reveals their fearful and disloyal hearts at the time- it does not mean that they did not see their error later. Remember, Jesus had not yet been crucified.

I'm respecting the text.
It says they believed, BUT they loved man's praise more than God's--ie, these two things were in conflict, and they chose not to confess Christ, but to deny Christ.

It's simple, not mysterious.

PS95 said:
The scriptures point out Nicodemus and Joseph of Arimathea and I do conclude that those two were most likely in that crowd that John spoke about. Peter denied Christ three times and was forgiven. You must apply that to those men also. Joseph took Jesus' body into his own tomb. What does that tell you? Nicodemus assisted Joseph. Both members of the Sanhedrin, so it is logical to conclude that John included them in that passage because they were considered "authorities"

I don't conclude what you conclude.

PS95 said:
I know you refused the parable of the sower but when you do read it- know that is times in people lives-

This discussion is centered on John's writings.

PS95 said:
All of us are growing in the Lord. We make many mistakes. Especially as new believers.
I hope that helps you to see what John was saying and why.

I just don't agree with your conclusions.

PS95 said:
See above. You are assuming far too much.

OK and I think you assume too much.
I didn't add to the text. You did.
"Whoever loves their life in this world will lose it"--I take this as an example of that doctrine.

PS95 said:
Did Peter lose his salvation? Maybe read what I wrote again.

Apples and oranges : Peter openly followed and confessed Christ, whereas these men denied Christ NOT out of fear of death, but out of love of praise, not wanting to forfeit their positions of honor in the community (the Pharisees would cast anyone who confessed Christ out of the Synagogue).

PS95 said:
I'm beginning to think that where you trouble lies is that you hear Jesus as a hard, critical, demanding man. I used to but no more. It was a terrible place to be. Did you grow up in an unloving home?

I'm just reading the text.

CadyandZoe · Apr 5, 2025

GracePeace said:
Right, so it sounds like you affirm both that eternal life does hinge on faith, and it hinges on good works, but whoever "truly" believes will inevitably, bc they're born of God, do good deeds that eternal life hinges on.

Is that correct?

If I understand you, that is what the Bible teaches.

I can provide you with another illustrative example. In the scriptures, God admonishes Israel to maintain fairness by using balanced scales, as a means to discourage dishonesty. One form of cheating involves employing two different sets of scales—one for measuring goods for friends and a separate one for the general public. This practice subtly gives an unfair advantage to acquaintances, undermining the principles of equity. Furthermore, another deceitful tactic is to utilize one set of scales when purchasing wheat from farmers, ensuring they receive less than their fair share, while later employing a different set of scales when selling that same wheat to consumers, thereby profiting at their expense. Such actions not only harm individuals but also erode the foundation of trust within the community.

There exists another subtle form of cheating that mirrors the underlying principle of imbalance. Before I embraced my faith, and even during my initial steps as a believer, I often found myself wielding unbalanced scales in my perception of justice. When someone inflicted pain upon me, I yearned for justice—an eye for an eye, as the saying goes. Yet, when the roles reversed, and I became the one causing hurt, my desires shifted dramatically; I sought mercy and forgiveness instead.

In my journey through faith, I've come to learn from Jesus' teachings that we are called to treat others as we wish to be treated ourselves. This moral compass suggests that if I hope for God's forgiveness in my own shortcomings, I must extend the same grace to others who have wronged me. My actions toward others are deeply influenced by the lessons on justice that Jesus has imparted to me. It becomes clear that holding the right beliefs should naturally pave the way for righteous actions in my interactions with others.

GracePeace · Apr 5, 2025

PS95 said:
Jws will say that they believe Jesus is divine. thing is, their Jesus is still dead. His body did not rise. And since an archangel's life force was put into Mary's womb and became Jesus- that life force went back to heaven to be re-created in Michael again. So they call Michael a divine god.. not to be worshiped but they are willing to bend a knee because that is obeisance.
Yeah so. the Jws on here do not tell you these things.
I am saddened by the many Christians on these board who feel they are learning from Jws such as Aunty Jane and do not understand that she is here for one reason and one reason only, and that is to gather up time spent in "her ministry" to gain her a resurrection.
Jws do not teach that their rank and file are born again, are members of the body of christ, are children of God, have Jesus as their mediator, are in the new covenant etc etc etc None of that applies to them- only to their lying leaders.
Jws do not believe that Jesus' death paid for anyone's sins but Adam's -and so a path was cleared them to earn salvation by obeying the watchtower leaders who are the ones who they believe go to heaven and to whom they obey.
it is so convoluted and utterly ridiculous which is why they wont tell you those thing out right, but it's what they've been taught regardless. it is wrapped in many deceptions. If you ask a Q you may get an answer that sounds reasonable-- but their words do NOT mean what you think. There is a whole lingo going on that is unique to them. Words don't mean the same thing that they do to you. that is a part of the deception. To them the gospel is Jesus returned invisibly in 1914 and chose them as His only church in 1919 and the rapture took place and He began ruling in heaven. yet heaven closed in 1935. Their teachings change daily so unless you are one of them you can not keep up. They can barely keep up. It's like being tossed and never able to come to the truth.
I have only touched on a small bit of their teachings. They thrive in arguing over words and twisting scriptures to demean the Lord while talking out of both sides of their mouths and the sadly the uninformed people here feed into that infestation. To much is 'assumed" that they must believe what you do. It is not so. They could not be further from the truth of the gospel.

I could never put them in the same list with a Calvinist. Be careful.

Please do not engage with off topic issues here; if you want to interact with him on off topic things he has said, please send him a private message.

GracePeace · Apr 5, 2025

CadyandZoe said:
If I understand you, that is what the Bible teaches. ... It becomes clear that holding the right beliefs should naturally pave the way for righteous actions in my interactions with others..

I'd have to humbly differ, bc branches in Him that do not abide are cut off and thrown in the fire; John teaches abiding in Him is by believing and loving (1 Jn 3:23,24), and "little children" are warned to both abide (lest they be ashamed and shrink back at His appearance), and to keep themselves from idols (idolatry is the reason they don't abide) in 1 Jn 2:28 and in 5:21.
If, instead, we remain in His Word, we prove ourselves to be His disciples, and will be free from sin, and will be doers of good raised to life instead of evildoers raised to condemnation.

Grailhunter · Apr 5, 2025

PS95 said:
Jws will say that they believe Jesus is divine. thing is, their Jesus is still dead. His body did not rise. And since an archangel's life force was put into Mary's womb and became Jesus- that life force went back to heaven to be re-created in Michael again. So they call Michael a divine god.. not to be worshiped but they are willing to bend a knee because that is obeisance.
Yeah so. the Jws on here do not tell you these things.
I am saddened by the many Christians on these board who feel they are learning from Jws such as Aunty Jane and do not understand that she is here for one reason and one reason only, and that is to gather up time spent in "her ministry" to gain her a resurrection.
Jws do not teach that their rank and file are born again, are members of the body of christ, are children of God, have Jesus as their mediator, are in the new covenant etc etc etc None of that applies to them- only to their lying leaders.
Jws do not believe that Jesus' death paid for anyone's sins but Adam's -and so a path was cleared them to earn salvation by obeying the watchtower leaders who are the ones who they believe go to heaven and to whom they obey.
it is so convoluted and utterly ridiculous which is why they wont tell you those thing out right, but it's what they've been taught regardless. it is wrapped in many deceptions. If you ask a Q you may get an answer that sounds reasonable-- but their words do NOT mean what you think. There is a whole lingo going on that is unique to them. Words don't mean the same thing that they do to you. that is a part of the deception. To them the gospel is Jesus returned invisibly in 1914 and chose them as His only church in 1919 and the rapture took place and He began ruling in heaven. yet heaven closed in 1935. Their teachings change daily so unless you are one of them you can not keep up. They can barely keep up. It's like being tossed and never able to come to the truth.
I have only touched on a small bit of their teachings. They thrive in arguing over words and twisting scriptures to demean the Lord while talking out of both sides of their mouths and the sadly the uninformed people here feed into that infestation. To much is 'assumed" that they must believe what you do. It is not so. They could not be further from the truth of the gospel.

I could never put them in the same list with a Calvinist. Be careful.

My Aunt was Jehovah’s Witness and I spent some time in their kingdom halls. Watched them as they huddled together and practiced twisting the scriptures so they could deceive people.

They made sure to carry King James Versions of the Bible so that when they went to people’s homes they could make them think they were Christians to.

Best I can tell they do not have one central belief…..it seems to vary.

As they say....
My Aunt was Jehovah’s Witness and I spent some time in their kingdom halls. Watched them as they huddled together and practiced twisting the scriptures so they could deceive people.

They made sure to carry King James Versions of the Bible so that when they went to people’s homes they could make them think they were Christians to.

Best I can tell they do not have one central belief…..it seems to vary.

As they say..........Just one version of what they believe.....
Yes. We believe in Jesus, who said: “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” (John 14:6) We have faith that Jesus came to earth from heaven and gave his perfect human life as a ransom sacrifice. (Matthew 20:28) His death and resurrection make it possible for those exercising faith in him to gain everlasting life. (John 3:16) We also believe that Jesus is now ruling as King of God’s heavenly Kingdom, which will soon bring peace to the entire earth. (Revelation 11:15) However, we take Jesus at his word when he said: “The Father is greater than I am.” (John 14:28) So we do not worship Jesus, as we do not believe that he is Almighty God.

Difficulty Reconciling

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