Difficulty Reconciling
- Thread starter GracePeace
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amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
Yes the KEY POINT is that salvation is ONLY FOUND IN CHRIST JESUS .
Sirs what must I DO to be saved . BELIEVE YE IN CHRIST JESUS .
If one from the heart does beleive IN HIM then BY THE SPIRIT they are given they shall have good works .
For HE workes in us that which is well pleasing to His sight .
Faith and beleif in any other thing WILL SAVE NONE .
And if a man hollers i do beleive in CHRIST JESUS yet walks in SIN holding his rainbow or any other sin ,
that man has decieved themselves . Jesus aint the ministir and supporter of any sin , and of UNBELIEF in HIM either .
A false love has taken hold of this generation
and it sure seems to embrace sins and even UNBELIEF . That aint the LOVE OF GOD its of the world
and wolves in wool have brought this unto the churches .
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
Yes many are already being motivated by a real wicked motiviation indeed .
Oh it will do some good works like feeding the poor ,
but man it sure does honor sins and unbelief by a false love that has come of the world and NOT OF GOD .
Any love that negates the fact ONE MUST REPENT TO BELEIVE ON JESUS THE CHRIST
well , IT Aint OF GOD at all .
Fact is its hate cloaked as though its love and its loving and it has made the road to GOD
VERY BROAD , very ALL INCLUSIVE as it holds even rainbows , korans , budda statues and hollers
All paths and all religions lead to GOD . MAN is its father a liar and know how to decieve HE DO .
satan desires death , but folks forget He can quoate things right outta that bible .
YES , YES He sure can say GOD IS LOVE . but upon simple examination of what he then says IS LOVE
and is loving , ITS REAL clear to see , ITS NOT THE LOVE OF GOD he is promoting , ITS LIES to keep all in bondage of sin
and in a lie . He is a liar . That he is .
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
The Bible is crafted in a human language, deliberately designed so that all people can grasp its messages and teachings. Yet, within its pages lie profound truths that often confront us on a deeply personal level, prompting a challenge to the very essence of who we are. Some of these revelations can be unsettling, leading individuals to dismiss or reject them altogether. This is where the Holy Spirit comes into play, acting as a guiding light to illuminate our understanding and assist us in overcoming our natural resistance to these uncomfortable truths.
For example, while many readily accept the idea of Jesus Christ as the Savior of sinners, acknowledging their own place among those sinners can be a daunting concept for some. The Holy Spirit’s role is pivotal; it gently encourages us to recognize our true selves as God and those around us perceive us, helping us to confront our flaws and limitations with honesty and grace. Through this process, we can embrace a more authentic understanding of ourselves and our relationship with the divine.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
I understand and respect your belief that simply having faith is insufficient for salvation; you emphasize the importance of pairing belief with actions and good works. However, my perspective diverges from yours in a significant way. While your viewpoint focuses on the interplay of belief and behavior as indicators of our relationship to God, I propose that we should concentrate on the essence of our being rather than merely our actions. In my view, we are not judged primarily for our deeds or thoughts, but instead, we are held accountable for our true identity and nature. It is who we are at our core that ultimately defines our standing, rather than just what we do or think.
According to the teachings of the Bible, individuals are held accountable not only for their actions but also for their thoughts. This judgment is deeply intertwined with the authenticity of one's inner self. In essence, it suggests that the extent of our condemnation is directly related to how well our thoughts and deeds align with our true character and values.
Many Christians grapple with the question, "What does God want me to do?" However, a more profound inquiry might be, "What kind of person does God desire me to become?" Jesus frequently criticized the Pharisees, who were so focused on the external actions dictated by religious law that they lost sight of the essence of true righteousness. Their attempts to please God through rigid adherence to an increasingly complex set of rules became a heavy burden, one that ultimately was too great for them to bear. In His teachings, Jesus conveyed a powerful message: God is not swayed by mere outward appearances or by those who play the role of the righteous. He seeks individuals who embody goodness and virtue from the very depths of their hearts, not just those who don a façade of morality.
The Reformers gave us the slogan, "Salvation by faith alone." If I were to create a slogan, it would be "Salvation by sanctification alone."
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
The term "belief" technically refers to the concepts and ideas that reside in my mind, which I accept as true. However, I find your perspective compelling, particularly regarding how certain truths should influence my actions and conduct. For example, the Bible clearly teaches that I am a sinner in need of both forgiveness and salvation. If I sincerely embrace this belief, several important implications emerge from it. Firstly, I am compelled to earnestly seek God's mercy, approaching Him in prayer as I ask for His pardon and embrace His promise to cleanse me from sin. Secondly, this belief should motivate me to extend forgiveness to those who have wronged me, making it easier for me to let go of grievances and offer compassion in response to their actions.
The question I asked (that you're responding to here) was about whether or not I had understood you on how you reconciled the ideas/verses from John mentioned in the OP.
It looks l had misunderstood you on how you reconcile the two sides.
I'm not looking for a breakdown of how you understand anything other than the issue raised in the OP--and I'm hoping to stick to John's Gospel when you answer.
All these other ideas (salvation by works vs who God wants me to be, etc) are not the focus of this thread, only reconciling the ideas mentioned in the OP. I really do not want to veer from that focus.
Now, it may be that you see no issue with the two sides presented in the OP. You are free to move on in that case. If, on the other hand, you have seen the two seemingly mutually exclusive sides, and if you have perceived an issue with them, and if you have considered how to reconcile those two sides, then please do share your findings.
I may probe your answer, but, actually, I am soliciting out of curiosity, to see if I can get any better answers for my own usage.
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Hey You!
Member
The problem I see is that you are Committing the Logical Fallacy of Making a Category Mistake. Your OP has examples of two Categories of Salvation, and you seem to want to make them into one Category...
Now this is the bottom line when it comes to Logic; either you, or I, am right. Perhaps no one can reconcile this conundrum for you, because it is irreconcilable. Why is it irreconcilable? Because it's two Categories, not one...
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I really believe there's no way to escape the paradoxical nature of a supreme being with all that that implies trying to communicate His ways of redemptive atonement to finite, sin-corrupted beings. It is the stuff of atheists' scorn and mockery. Trying to divine it (no pun intended) merely intellectually has been the ruin of countless great thinkers.
Abraham, our father, also, mentioned in John's Gospel, was faced with affirming two seemingly mutually exclusive propositions from God (if you recall), so at least I don't have to feel like the issue I'm facing is outside the realm of orthodox faith in God.
@BarneyFife Some examples of people who were approved of (in John's Gospel) both believed and did good (in John's Gospel, "doing good" is being sent by Jesus and seeking His glory (Jn 3:30; 4:34; 6:57; 7:18)) :
1. the King's official believed, and he went, and testified about Jesus to his household;
2. the Samaritan woman believed, and she went, and testified about Jesus to the Samaritans;
3. the man born blind believed, and he was summoned, and he testified about Jesus to the Pharisees;
4. Pilate believed, and he went, and he testified about Jesus ("What I have written, I have written.") to the Pharisees.
So, here, the believing and the doing are together.
However, there are also those who believed, but they did not testify about Jesus, because they loved the sin of man's praise more than the praise of God (Jn 12:42)--their believing did not result, it seems, in eternal life.
1. the King's official believed, and he went, and testified about Jesus to his household;
2. the Samaritan woman believed, and she went, and testified about Jesus to the Samaritans;
3. the man born blind believed, and he was summoned, and he testified about Jesus to the Pharisees;
4. Pilate believed, and he went, and he testified about Jesus ("What I have written, I have written.") to the Pharisees.
So, here, the believing and the doing are together.
However, there are also those who believed, but they did not testify about Jesus, because they loved the sin of man's praise more than the praise of God (Jn 12:42)--their believing did not result, it seems, in eternal life.
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Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
You could not be more wrong.
And the stench of it smells like Once Saved Always Saved.
Pew we that stinks
What I would not want to happen (as a result of your reply) would be that a conversation would begin, citing many other books in the NT, not just John's Gospel, along with flaming, etc.
I do hope to stick to the question in the OP ("If you've struggled with reconciling the two, what were your findings?"), and to stick to John's Gospel in doing so.
The less we feed in to conversations that are not focused on answering the OP, the better.
Dan Clarkston
Well-Known Member
You should get to know the Lord Jesus and actually read some of the things He said
The phrase "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect" is found in Matthew 5:48 and emphasizes the call for individuals to strive for moral and spiritual perfection, reflecting the nature of God.
The phrase "Be ye holy; for I am holy" is found in 1 Peter 1:16 emphasizing the call for believers to live a life of holiness, reflecting God's nature.
Hebrews 12:14
Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
What good is the topic of John’s Gospel alone? What is your intent?
It actually expands to larger a theological topic. Difficulty reconciling topics within a single book or even the Pauline books. The attempt to reconcile verses will have you chasing your tail all through the New Testment. To understand you have to consider the theological style of Christian writings in that time period. It is part of a theological course that is at the root of understanding the New Testament.
In short, to do that you have to consider what the scriptures might mean and then what they might not mean. And then re-compare the possibilities. Why? Because the Christian style was to speak to categories without defining the categories sometimes categories seeming to be absolutes.
For example: Consider “What are the....nots” God so love us and we are to love one another….but love alone will not save you. We are to have faith in Christ….but that alone will not save you. We are to “be good and do good” but that alone will not save you. The general process of salvation, Acts 2:38 and the Bread and Wine Ritual….but that alone will not save you. And then there is the interpretation and focus on some scriptures that will be interpreted as Once Saved Always Saved.
People ask the question; How do I know I am saved. I tell them that the Holy Spirit changes you. If you are not changed, if you are the same person before and after….You are probably not saved. Faith is matter of the mind and heart. The process of salvation is a matter of the mind and heart. Repentance is matter of the mind and the heart, all of which has Christ as the focus. Baptism….the new spiritual person that comes out of the water is changed. Baptism is a new start with your passed life spiritually forgot to start a new life, a clean slate. The Bread and Wine Ritual is the next step after Baptism when the new person takes Christ inside themselves.
With salvation and with a clean slate the new person filled with Christ starts their Christian journey, but the end destination is still a matter of that journey. So in other words do not focus on any one Christian point to think it saves you….it is truly a package deal….a follower of Christ.
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It is my request for this thread. I have had so many threads where I've been open to all the Scriptures being discussed, but, here, I'm wanting to focus only on John's Gospel. It is my request for this thread. Would you please entertain me?
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Behold
Well-Known Member
When you deny that Jesus keeps you saved, then you are literally offending The Cross of Christ by denying the Grace of God.
Dont be that one, anymore.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
GracePeace does not want us debating it and besides we have debate this topic before.
It is enough to say I will always disagree with Once Saved Always Saved.
It is enough to say I will always disagree with Once Saved Always Saved.
