When did the 2nd temple literally initially cease being the holy place?

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grafted branch

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I still don't fully get what you are meaning here. In Matthew 24, it is at the beginning of great tribulation that they begin fleeing.
The fleeing in Matthew 24 was to begin when they saw the AOD. The days were shortened which meant the fleeing wasn’t going to happen when they saw the AOD, the shortening of the days changed the indicator of when to flee to Jerusalem being surrounded by armies.

You asked where am I seeing in Luke 17 that they do see one of those days they desire to see? If some of those verses are involving His 2nd coming, and surely they are, that would logically be when they finally see one of those days they desire to see. Even if some of them die during B) before C) arrives, well there is such a thing as their resurrection once C) arrives.
Luke 17:22 is only concerning the disciples who wouldn't see the days of the Son of man, so that verse can’t be the key as to where the other verses are to be placed in time. I would say the disciples in verse 22 would have to be those He was directly speaking to.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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What happened in 70AD was very similar to what happened to Sodom.
Jesus didn't say it would be similar, He said it would be exactly like what happened to Sodom in the sense that all in Sodom were killed by fire that came down from heaven. Not all in Jerusalem were killed. When Jesus comes again in the future, fire will come down on the earth killing all unbelievers (2 Peter 3:10-12). Jesus was comparing what happened to Sodom to what will happen then.

Lot was notified and he fled.
He was led out of Sodom by angels. Similarly, we will be gathered by angels and taken off of the earth just before Jesus comes.

In Luke 17:30 the Son of man is revealed, which notified, and then they fled per vs 31. In 70AD they were notified by Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, and they fled.
You are so deceived by false preterist doctrine. I might as well talk to a wall. The Son of man was not revealed in 70 AD.
 

Davidpt

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Luke 17:22 is only concerning the disciples who wouldn't see the days of the Son of man, so that verse can’t be the key as to where the other verses are to be placed in time. I would say the disciples in verse 22 would have to be those He was directly speaking to.

IOW, you don't agree, that even in our day and time, there is such a thing as someone that can fit what Luke 17:23 records? Keeping in mind that He said that right after what He said in verse 22. Also keeping in mind, He expanded on some of this even further, in Matthew 24, verses 23-26, for example. Some argue that that is meaning after great tribulation involving verses 15-21. I argue that it is meaning during those verses. And if I am correct, it then for sure makes zero sense that verses 15-21 are involving the first century leading up to 70 AD.

IOW, the reason the temple and city was destroyed in 70 AD had zero to do with false christs and false prophets showing great signs and wonders. That fits with what is recorded in 2 Thessalonians 2 instead, keeping in mind that too involves a temple and that it involves the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders. So, IOW, when we get to verse 15 in Matthew 24, Jesus is no longer focusing on events only involving the first century, He is focusing on events pertaining to final days of this age, which includes what is recorded in 2 Thessalonians 2:4 and what all that involves.
 
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grafted branch

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Revelation 1;7
“Look, he is coming with the clouds,” and “every eye will see him, even those who pierced him"; and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.” So shall it be! Amen.


So you believe every eye did not see him.
Do you believe that only the dead mourned for him in 70 AD too?
Luke 2:1 And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.

Do you think the American Indians were taxed?
 

grafted branch

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Also keeping in mind, He expanded on some of this even further, in Matthew 24, verses 23-26, for example.
Well sure, there are people who are currently calling themselves Christ, but Matthew 24:23 says don’t believe anyone who says Christ is here or there. At some point your view does have Christ somewhere on earth which means we should at some point believe people who say Christ is here or there.
That doesn’t make sense either.
 

Davidpt

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which means we should at some point believe people who say Christ is here or there.
That doesn’t make sense either.

Trust me, I get your point, but even so, it will be obvious when the real Christ arrives. It won't even be questionable at that point. No one, and I mean no one, will be able to deny that the real Christ has arrived. After all, legions of angels will be accompanying Him for one thing.
 

tailgator

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Luke 2:1 And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.

Do you think the American Indians were taxed?
American Indians were not in Caesars kingdom.

So why do you suppose no one alive could see Jesus and since no one alive saw him,what proof do you have that he actually came?
 

Davidpt

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So why don’t you enlighten me by explaining why people should flee when the Son of man gets revealed, on the last day.


The only way I can see to square this, in the day the Son of man is revealed is not meaning in the day they are to flee. Keeping in mind that if 70 AD is meant, your view, it would be Christians that are to flee. If meaning the 2nd coming, it would be the unsaved that are to flee. Neither of these scenarios make any sense of Luke 17:31-33. Speaking of verse 33, try interpreting that in light of Matthew 16:24-26, for instance. IOW, it's the same concept. Yet it makes sense if we apply these things spiritually rather than literally, yet don't have it involving 70 AD nor the 2nd coming. Yet have it involving great tribulation. But not great tribulation allegedly involving 70 AD, but great tribulation involving the final days of this age involving the church being persecuted beyond reason.
 
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grafted branch

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Trust me, I get your point, but even so, it will be obvious when the real Christ arrives. It won't even be questionable at that point. No one, and I mean no one, will be able to deny that the real Christ has arrived. After all, legions of angels will be accompanying Him for one thing.
Well I would say it was obvious to those in Jerusalem who fled that it was about to be destroyed and I would say at some point it was obvious to those who remained in Jerusalem that they were facing the wrath of the Lamb.

How are you determining what has and what hasn’t been fulfilled? Shouldn’t we go by what we see and hear? And shouldn’t that include historical events such as what took place in 70AD?

Here’s what Jesus told John’s disciples when they asked Him whether He was the one that should come.

Matthew 11:4Jesus answered and said unto them, Go and shew John again those things which ye do hear and see: 5The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them.
 

tailgator

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The only way I can see to square this, in the day the Son of man is revealed is not meaning in the day they are to flee. Keeping in mind that if 70 AD is meant, your view, it would be Christians that are to flee. If meaning the 2nd coming, it would be the unsaved that are to flee. Neither of these scenarios make any sense of Luke 17:31-33. Speaking of verse 33, try interpreting that in light of Matthew 16:24-26, for instance. IOW, it's the same concept. Yet it makes sense if we apply these things spiritually rather than literally, yet don't have it involving 70 AD nor the 2nd coming. Yet have it involving great tribulation. But not great tribulation allegedly involving 70 AD, but great tribulation involving the final days of this age involving the church being persecuted beyond reason.
The people of Judea flee the day Jesus is revealed .
And yes,it is the unbelievers who flee
The saints are gathered to him at his coming and will be with him in Jerusalem.

Zech 14
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.


Just like Jesus said in the gospel. Them in Judea will flee .Also notice he comes back to the same hill (Olivet)where he ascended from.
 

Davidpt

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Well I would say it was obvious to those in Jerusalem who fled that it was about to be destroyed and I would say at some point it was obvious to those who remained in Jerusalem that they were facing the wrath of the Lamb.

How are you determining what has and what hasn’t been fulfilled? Shouldn’t we go by what we see and hear? And shouldn’t that include historical events such as what took place in 70AD?

Here’s what Jesus told John’s disciples when they asked Him whether He was the one that should come.

Matthew 11:4Jesus answered and said unto them, Go and shew John again those things which ye do hear and see: 5The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them.

What some are ignoring, before Christ can even return, there are two totally different events involving a temple that have to be fulfilled first. One of those events has already been fulfilled, meaning in the first century and the 2nd temple being destroyed. Except that has zero to do with the temple involving 2 Thessalonians 2:4. The issue is not that anyone is denying that what 2 Thessalonians 2:4 is involving has to be fulfilled before Christ returns, the issue is that their interpretation of the Discourse gives the impression that Jesus never saw this as anything significant, that He saw the destroying of the 2nd temple more significant since that is the only one He focused on in the Discourse. Not according to me but according to these other interpretations.
 

Davidpt

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The people of Judea flee the day Jesus is revealed .
And yes,it is the unbelievers who flee
The saints are gathered to him at his coming and will be with him in Jerusalem.

Zech 14
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.


Just like Jesus said in the gospel. Them in Judea will flee .Also notice he comes back to the same hill (Olivet)where he ascended from.

LOL at myself for forgetting that. It indeed shows some fleeing when He returns, Except I don't see Luke 17:31-33 being in regards to any of that. Especially in light of verse 33 then comparing that with Matthew 16:24-26, for instance. But not that Matthew 16:24-26 is meaning Luke 17:33, but that Luke 17:33 is involving the same concept Matthew 16:24-26 is involving, which has to do with discipleship in general, and has to do with continuing to following Christ vs falling away. And that I see Matthew 24:15-21 being a time of testing for those that are professed followers of Christ. If I was an Amil you know what I might be doing in that case? I would be applying Mathew 24:15-21 to that of satan's little season. It boggles my mind that no Amils are doing that. Or if some are, I guess I'm unaware of it.
 
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grafted branch

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Neither of these scenarios make any sense of Luke 17:31-33. Speaking of verse 33, try interpreting that in light of Matthew 16:24-26, for instance.
No matter how we interpret those verses, Matthew 16:28 says There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

I would say that qualifies as a revealing of the Son of man and puts that revealing (Luke 17:30) in the first century.
 

Davidpt

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No matter how we interpret those verses, Matthew 16:28 says There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

I would say that qualifies as a revealing of the Son of man and puts that revealing (Luke 17:30) in the first century.

Except that ignores some things that Jesus said that couldn't possibly fit the first century. Such as.

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Then compare that with this...

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory

And then with this...

Revelation 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
 

grafted branch

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The bible does not say Jesus came in 70 AD.
Your the only one saying Jesus came

In fact ,the apostles say he is still to come in the bible as well many first century Christian authors.
70AD was future to entire cannon. Now let’s go back to Luke 23.

In Luke 23:28-30 Jesus told those people in front of Him to weep for themselves and their children because they will say to the mountains fall on us.

Do you believe that actually happened? What more proof do you need than the Bible itself?

If you do believe those people cried to the mountains to fall on them then why wouldn’t you believe it fulfilled Revelation 6:16?
 

tailgator

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No matter how we interpret those verses, Matthew 16:28 says There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

I would say that qualifies as a revealing of the Son of man and puts that revealing (Luke 17:30) in the first century.
I'm pretty sure John saw it before he died.
He wrote what all he saw in revelation .But I don't believe John saw it in 70 AD.I think he saw in in 95 AD during the reign of Domitian.
 

tailgator

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70AD was future to entire cannon. Now let’s go back to Luke 23.

In Luke 23:28-30 Jesus told those people in front of Him to weep for themselves and their children because they will say to the mountains fall on us.

Do you believe that actually happened? What more proof do you need than the Bible itself?

If you do believe those people cried to the mountains to fall on them then why wouldn’t you believe it fulfilled Revelation 6:16?

I don't believe those people went underground and hid in 70 AD..

I simply don't believe the Lord came to Jerusalem in 70 AD.I don't believe the saints were gathered to him nor do I believe he consumed all the nations that came against in Jerusalem on that day.

In fact,not a single saint has ever said he did .Just you.