When did the 2nd temple literally initially cease being the holy place?

"distress with perplexity"​

Literally means tribulation great.​

1. 1) a pressing, pressing together, pressure2) metaph. oppression, affliction, tribulation, distress, straits

"therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many."​

"there shall be a time of tribulation, such tribulation as has not been from the time that there was a nation on the earth until that time"​

Davidpt said:

And so is some of the wording in Luke 17 and some of Matthew 24 intensely similar. For example.

Luke 17:24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.
25 But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.
26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
32 Remember Lot's wife.
33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.


Compare Luke 17:24 with the following in Matthew 24.

Matthew 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.


Compare Luke 17:26-27 with the following in Matthew 24.

Matthew 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Compare Luke 17:31 with the following in Matthew 24.

Matthew 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.


Compare Luke 17:35-36 with the following in Matthew 24.

Matthew 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

And finally, compare Luke 17:37 with the following in Matthew 24.

Matthew 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

The point then being this. Every single thing I brought up per Luke 17 is involving something recorded in Matthew 24:15 through Matthew 24:41. Which then means that everything recorded in Luke 17 undeniably proves that not one single single recorded in Matthew 24:15 through Matthew 24:41 is involving 70 AD. Yet some argue that this is only true of Matthew 24:23 through Matthew 24:41, and not Matthew 24:15 through Matthew 24:22 as well. Except I'm pretty certain that Luke 17:31 is also recorded in Matthew 24 in verses 17 and 18.

And that I'm pretty certain that Luke 17:33 alone, in light of Matthew 16:24-26 undeniably proves that Matthew 24:17-18 is not in regards to 70 AD. IOW, the concept in Luke 17:33 is discipleship and not falling away versus falling away, by comparing with Matthew 16:24-26. And since Luke 17:31 is also recorded in Matthew 24:17 and 18, it stands to reason then, that it too involves discipleship pertaining to not falling away vs falling away. And it's not like there is no such thing as falling away having to do with defiling a temple, a holy place. IOW, let's not pretend that 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 is not in our Bibles nor that it can't support that the holy place meant in Matthew 24:15 is meaning this temple meant in 2 Thessalonians 2:4..

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The Beast from the Earth​

Scott Downey said:

Also Matthew 24 Jesus tells people to flee to the mountains.

But later when Jesus talks about His returning, He tells them to look up, watch and wait, not flee anywhere.

What if where you are there are no mountains when He returns?
And what are you supposed to be watching out for?
The abomination of desolation?
All of this is specifically written for people in Judea. Maybe you can say for back in 70 AD and people in Judea today this applies, but not for me or you or anyone who have no day's journey to some mountain sanctuary. I am not going to hop on a plane and fly to Jerusalem to flee to the mountains there.

Now also consider a pre tribulation rapturist POV, IF the abomination of desolation is observable by a believer, at what point are we in the 'timeline'?
Obvious to me, the antichrist or man of sin, son of perdition, has sat himself down in the temple of God. So then there was no pre tribulation rapture was there? Satan's power has been stretched full on over the earth and his government is in power. And Christians are observing the abomination of desolation. They are still on the earth.

And there were 'elect believers' in AD 70.
Was the gospel preached in all the nations by 70 AD? Maybe, depends on how you define nations back then. Certainly not North or South America.
No where in the church letters are we told to flee anywhere to the mountains etc... before Christ's return.
The only thing that can fit is it applies to 70 AD and today's time, and this is specifically about Jerusalem.

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

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Scott Downey said:

I know there were so far two times of abomination of desolation events.
Will there be a 3rd? Good question. Not yet as it has to do with defiling the temple of God by offering sacrifices to an idol, or another god being worshipped in a holy place of the Lord God. There cannot be any true temples made with stones of a holy place where God is anymore. Cause if true there is lot's of NT scriptures get broken. Saved people are the only true temple of God today, so if someone has departed from Christ, they had not been granted by God to come to Christ, and never had him living in them ever. Those who believe have Christ dwelling in them and they have been sealed by the Holy Spirit for the day of redemption of the purchased possession.

The FAKE believers, Christ tells them I never know you.

Matthew 7

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

What is the abomination of desolation of Daniel & Matthew?

John 6
34 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.

35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.

37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.

45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?

62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?

68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.

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Scott Downey said:

What if where you are there are no mountains when He returns?

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Scott Downey said:

And what are you supposed to be watching out for?

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Scott Downey said:

The abomination of desolation?

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Scott Downey said:

All of this is specifically written for people in Judea. Maybe you can say for back in 70 AD and people in Judea today this applies, but not for me or you or anyone who have no day's journey to some mountain sanctuary. I am not going to hop on a plane and fly to Jerusalem to flee to the mountains there.

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Scott Downey said:

Now also consider a pre tribulation rapturist POV, IF the abomination of desolation is observable by a believer, at what point are we in the 'timeline'?

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Scott Downey said:

Obvious to me, the antichrist or man of sin, son of perdition, has sat himself down in the temple of God. So then there was no pre tribulation rapture was there? Satan's power has been stretched full on over the earth and his government is in power. And Christians are observing the abomination of desolation. They are still on the earth.

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Dave Watchman said:

What if the "mountains" are symbolic? What if this is an example of Revelation's symbolism being used prior to it's writing? What if Jesus is talking about the seven specific mountains from Revelation 13.

Luke 17. Luke put Matthew 24's "Abomination" in his Chapter 17. What it is exactly. When you see those "days", flee to the mountains. Forget about your house, your car and what you will wear or how you will look. Seek God. God's people, those who are in Jesus, in Judah, turn to their religion. The duTillet Hebraic version of Matthew reads: H3063 יְהוּדָה (Yehudah) - Judah. Those who are in Judah, like Lion of the Tribe of.

The 1290 day one, spoken of by the Prophet Daniel.

I disagree. I know the various Preterist style people will accuse me of newspaper exegesis, but I wouldn't recommend hoping on a plane right now.

As passengers flee via the wing. On the wing of abominations. When knowledge has already been increased, the time to travel to and fro has ended. No need to flee via the wing. It can be done through thought. Like in my mind I'm going to Carolina. When you see the Abomination, there's not much time. God's People, those who are in Jesus, run to your religion. Seek matters of the Spirit.

Past the 1290 days of Daniel 12.

Obvious to me too. Last weekend I wrote a long note on it on another forum like this. A wall of text with pictures. A chronology of the Stern Faced King from Daniel 11, vs 31, to now. They removed my post after about 4 hours. I agree it can be spooky to hear a guy saying it's happening now, he is dividing the land for a profit, for a price.

I agree when you say: "Satan's power has been stretched full on over the earth and his government is in power. And Christians are observing the abomination of desolation." When it is standing where it ought not to be.

If they, we, are still on earth, I doubt it's for too much longer. I wouldn't be worried about that kitchen and bath renovation. Or the steel tile roof with the 75 year warrantee.

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Scott Downey said:

Even the angels who came for Lot, told him to flee to the mountains. So, I don't think we want to fully spiritualize it, even though you can.
That part of Matthew 24 is for those in Judea. Judea is still there today, so IMO, it can be applied to then and now.

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Dave Watchman said:

I agree it was literal back in the days of Lot. That was just a local prophecy, to do with Lots's family fleeing from the wrath about to fall on the Sodomites.

And it was also literal in Luke 21 when Jerusalem was surrounded by armies. That was also a local prophecy to do with the Old Time Jews. Those were the days of vengeance, to fulfill all that was written in Moses' day.

But at the end of the world, these Judean Hills probably aren't big enough to hide all the people needing to flee there.

Just need a chopper with thermal imaging at night. Like 153 fish in a barrel.

Matthew 24's Abomination is different. Matthew 24 is not a local prophecy, it meets the criteria for an Apocalyptic prophecy, complete with a prophetic time period, the 1290 days spoken of by the Prophet Daniel. The 1290 days are the litmus test. First find them, then the rest of it, including the "holy place", the place where it ought not to be standing, can be reverse engineered back to the birth of the baby male Child, the One who Rules.

I never want to spiritualize the Word away. I always go to the literal meaning first. The NT has transferred a bunch of the terminology around. Like not everyone who calls themselves a Jew, is a Jew. We are Abraham's seed now. Like the guy with the login name Spiritual Israelite. The Israel of God.

Because I read Matthew 24:16 as a global event having an impact on the majority of the world, I would consider more of a symbolic meaning in the text. I remember hearing Dave Pack in a video demanding a literal interpretation. He said the place of safety was Petra in Jordan. He said Christians needed to physically travel there to hide from the Antichrist. Some wealthy individuals were said to be already be hiding supplies there. Lol.

There are parallels though. When I think about that wrath about to fall on the Sodomites. Yikes. Remember Lots wife. There's no looking back. One will be taken to destruction, one will be left. At the coming of the Son of Man.

Jesus said whoever seeks to save their lives will lose their lives. And that He would keep us from, or during, (EK), the hour of trial that would come upon the whole world.

And to deliver us from the Evil One.

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Davidpt said:

Unless you haven't noticed, both Luke 17 and Revelation 18, for example, involve fleeing. Do you take the fleeing in those chapters in the literal sense as well?

Luke 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
32 Remember Lot's wife.
33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

Clearly, verse 31 involves fleeing.

Revelation 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.
6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.
7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.
8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.

Clearly, verse 4 involves fleeing. The question is, pertaining to both of these examples I brought up, fleeing in what sense?

Mark 13:15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house:
16 And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment.


Compare this with the following in Luke 17.

Luke 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
32 Remember Lot's wife.
33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.


In light of Luke 17:28-32, it would not be unreasonable to understand Mark 13:15-16 like such, thus interpreting Scripture with Scripture. Something some in this thread should try doing, interpreting Scripture with Scripture.

And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house:
And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment. Remember Lot's wife. Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.


Would it be wrong to maybe understand Mark 13:15-16 like that in light of Luke 17:28-33. One thing is for certain, no way in a million years is Luke 17:28-32 is involving 70 AD.

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