Why do Premillennialists not believe that 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 and 2 Peter 3:10-13 refer to the same event?

Spiritual Israelite said:

I don't know how anyone can deny that the following two passages are about the same event, but most Premills do deny that and it is those Premills that I am addressing here.

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

So, both passages refer to the day of the Lord that will come as a thief in the night. Most Premills would agree with me that 1 Thess 5:2-3 refers to the second coming of Christ. We know that He will come as a thief in the night (Matthew 24:42-44, Luke 12:37-40, Rev 16:15). With that in mind, why would anyone think that 2 Peter 3:10-13 is not also referring to Jesus coming as a thief in the night? There is no basis for claiming otherwise. But, many Premils try to say that it refers to an event 1,000+ years after the second coming of Christ instead. I see no basis for that. The text does not indicate that at all.

So, what can we learn about what Paul is saying in 1 Thess 5:2-3 from what Peter said about the same event in 2 Peter 3:10-13? We can see what causes the "sudden destruction" that Paul said will occur when Jesus comes as a thief in the night from which those in spiritual darkness "shall not escape". It will be fire that comes down on the entire earth. No wonder Paul said "they shall not escape". How could any mortals escape that? They can't. So, why can't Premills acknowledge that they can't reconcile 1 Thess 5:2-3 and 2 Peter 3:10-13 with their Premill beliefs?

Another thing to notice is what Peter wrote in 2 Peter 3:13. He said that, despite what he described in 2 Peter 3:10-12, "we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.". What is "his promise" that Peter is referring to there? This one that he referenced earlier...

2 Peter 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

So, "his promise" refers to "the promise of his coming", which refers to the second coming of Christ when He will come as a thief in the night. Which means that Peter was saying that we look for the new heavens and new earth in fulfillment of the promise of Christ's second coming. With that in mind, why do Premills instead look for an earthly millennial kingdom in fulfillment of Christ's second coming? That's not what Peter said we should be looking for.

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Premils have no answer to this. That is why they avoid it. What can they say?

Spiritual Israelite said:

I agree. They are saying nothing, so that says it all.

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If you built your argument on opinions they would be able to find holes.

Davy said:

Got NEWS for the original poster!

Premills do believe... that the events of 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 and 2 Peter 3:10-12 agree with each other!

And notice I did NOT... include the 2 Peter 3:13 verse, which is for the later... new heavens and a new earth AFTER Christ's "thousand years" reign of Rev.20 that happens first!


So brethren in Christ, don't pay attention to the LIARS of Amillennialism, for they TRY to plant FALSE DOCTRINE among the Premill facts of written Bible Scripture.

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I had written a longer... post showing that the Premil idea, which is what is actually written in The Bible with the "thousand years" future reign by Christ being meant literally.

Thus I revealed the Amil's on this forum as liars against Premil with their vain ATTEMPT to associate all Premil believers as believing on man's false Pre-trib Rapture theory. Their false strategy was to try and TRICK you into thinking that if one believes in Premil, then that means they are both a Futurist and on man's Pre-trib Rapture Theory. That idea of course is FALSE, since the 1st century Church fathers were all Premillennialists, and the Pre-trib Rapture theory did not exist in their era!

I also stated that I believe Premil per Bible Scripture, but that I do NOT believe on man's 1830's false Pre-trib Rapture theory. There are MANY Christian brethren that are Premillennialists which are also Post-tribulationalists like I am.

Brethren in Christ Jesus:

Here is how to properly interpret the 1 Thessalonians 5 and 2 Peter 3:10-12 Scripture.

1 Thess 5:1-9
5 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

That "times and the seasons" is about the prophetic SIGNS given the Church about events leading up to the end with Christ's future return. Jesus gave those SIGNS of the end in His Olivet discourse of Matthew 24 and Mark 13, which align with the SEALS of Revelation 6. (I have a study on that Olivet discourse somewhere on the Forum.)

Paul had no need to review those times and the seasons with the brethren there, because they already knew them. How did they know? It's because most of it was first written in the The Old Testament Books of God's prophets. And Apostle Paul is going to pull from those Books of the prophets right here in this 1 Thess.5 chapter.

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, "Peace and safety"; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

That "day of the Lord" is the LAST DAY of this present world when Jesus will return to gather His faithful Church that will reign with Him over the nations. In Matthew 24 and Mark 13 Lord Jesus first gave that as a thief metaphor to represent the day of His future coming. In Revelation 16:15 within the 6th Vial timing, Lord Jesus gave that "as a thief" time reference for His coming again, saying that He will come "as a thief".

Now notice that I said that "day of the Lord" will happen on the LAST DAY of this present world with Jesus' coming to gather His Church. That means a Post-tribulational coming by Christ Jesus. Those on man's Pre-trib Rapture theory do not believe that. They instead claim Jesus comes to gather His Church PRIOR... to the "great tribulation", when Jesus Himself said He comes AFTER... the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27). Some on man's false Pre-trib Rapture theory today even wrongly try... to move that "day of the Lord" backwards in time, prior to the "great tribulation", just so they can keep their false pre-trib rapture lie.

4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

See, per Paul saying that, it means those in Christ are supposed... to be aware of those times and the seasons leading up to Christ's future coming.

Those Paul mentions that will be saying that, "Peace and safety" just prior to that "sudden destruction" coming upon them, who are those?

Those are the wicked and deceived who either work against Christ, or don't know those times and the seasons, and therefore will be deceived at the end. Thus they will travail like a woman giving birth, which is a metaphor God used about that "sudden destruction" on that "day of the Lord" per The Old Testament prophets. That's where Apostle Paul was preaching that from. So we were supposed to already know where in The Old Testament prophets that Paul was preaching this from before we got here in 1 Thessalonians 5. Who reading this hasn't done that yet?

5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
KJV

Man's false Pre-trib Rapture School skips most of what Paul taught above and they instead focus on that sole 1 Thess.5:9 verse, ADDING the idea of a rapture of the Church prior to the tribulation to it. They also wrongly preach that "wrath" there is Satan's wrath for during the "great tribulation" time, but it is not. It is God's cup of wrath to be poured out on the LAST DAY of this world which will coincide with that "sudden destruction" upon the wicked and deceived.

Apostle Peter covered that LAST DAY of this world "sudden destruction" idea also, on that "day of the Lord". Thus Peter was pointing to the same... event of destruction that will come "as a thief" on the "day of the Lord" that Paul was preaching:

2 Peter 3:10-12
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

The Greek word for that "elements" is NOT science's periodic table of material elements. It is a Greek word that means a 'serial order', like a world earth age or time. Peter is referring to the end of this present world time. That's the "sudden destruction" Apostle Paul was pointing to, which will happen on the LAST DAY of this present world.

That destruction we 'know'... will NOT literally destroy the whole earth, but burn man's works off its surface only, just as the destruction by a flood did in the earth's past history. The way we can be sure of that is because there exists many Biblical references to a time ON THIS EARTH for AFTER Christ's future return which means AFTER that "consuming fire" event. The end of Hebrews 12 gives another view of that coming "consuming fire" event.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
KJV

Again, that coming "consuming fire" event will not totally destroy this earth. This earth is for ever, like Psalms 104 says. That fire will literally burn man's works only, off the surface of this earth. And God can be very, very accurate with His "consuming fire", only harming those things He targets.

Spiritual Israelite said:

I don't know how anyone can deny that the following two passages are about the same event, but most Premills do deny that and it is those Premills that I am addressing here.

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

So, both passages refer to the day of the Lord that will come as a thief in the night. Most Premills would agree with me that 1 Thess 5:2-3 refers to the second coming of Christ. We know that He will come as a thief in the night (Matthew 24:42-44, Luke 12:37-40, Rev 16:15). With that in mind, why would anyone think that 2 Peter 3:10-13 is not also referring to Jesus coming as a thief in the night? There is no basis for claiming otherwise. But, many Premils try to say that it refers to an event 1,000+ years after the second coming of Christ instead. I see no basis for that. The text does not indicate that at all.

So, what can we learn about what Paul is saying in 1 Thess 5:2-3 from what Peter said about the same event in 2 Peter 3:10-13? We can see what causes the "sudden destruction" that Paul said will occur when Jesus comes as a thief in the night from which those in spiritual darkness "shall not escape". It will be fire that comes down on the entire earth. No wonder Paul said "they shall not escape". How could any mortals escape that? They can't. So, why can't Premills acknowledge that they can't reconcile 1 Thess 5:2-3 and 2 Peter 3:10-13 with their Premill beliefs?

Another thing to notice is what Peter wrote in 2 Peter 3:13. He said that, despite what he described in 2 Peter 3:10-12, "we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.". What is "his promise" that Peter is referring to there? This one that he referenced earlier...

2 Peter 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

So, "his promise" refers to "the promise of his coming", which refers to the second coming of Christ when He will come as a thief in the night. Which means that Peter was saying that we look for the new heavens and new earth in fulfillment of the promise of Christ's second coming. With that in mind, why do Premills instead look for an earthly millennial kingdom in fulfillment of Christ's second coming? That's not what Peter said we should be looking for.

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Amil position is hard to defend.
History is not your friend

From Google:
"Interpretation of the Millennium:

Amillennialists believe the "thousand years" in Revelation 20 are symbolic, representing the entire period from Christ's ascension to His return, rather than a literal 1,000-year reign on earth.
Current Reign of Christ:
They see Christ's reign as already begun spiritually through the Church and believers, and that the kingdom of God is active in history through Jesus Christ.
No Future Literal Reign:
Amillennialists reject the idea of a future, literal 1,000-year reign of Christ on earth, with a physical kingdom.
Focus on Spiritual Reign:
They emphasize the spiritual nature of Christ's reign during the current church age, with believers reigning with Christ in heaven.
Final Judgment and New Creation:
Amillennialists believe that at the end of the church age, Christ will return in final judgment, establishing a permanent reign in a new heaven and new earth."

That puts the gt in our past.
Not plausible or possible

rebuilder 454 said:

Amil position is hard to defend.
History is not your friend

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Explain. This is typical of Premils. They have zero evidence to back up their claims. All they have is personal opinions. This amounts to nothing.

WPM said:

Explain. This is typical of Premils. They have zero evidence to back up their claims. All they have is personal opinions. This amounts to nothing.

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Another big fib by an Amillennialist.

WPM has been given many... Bible Scripture references that proves that the "thousand years" reign by Christ and His elect of Revelation 20 will be a literal time period on earth.

Again, those who heed men's doctrines instead of staying in God's Word as written, love... to constantly make false affirmations.

And again what is an 'affirmation'? It is often just wishful thinking, the making of a proclamation 'as if'... it were true, when it has not been proven as fact.

Davy said:

Another big fib by an Amillennialist.

WPM has been given many... Bible Scripture references that proves that the "thousand years" reign by Christ and His elect of Revelation 20 will be a literal time period on earth.

Again, those who heed men's doctrines instead of staying in God's Word as written, love... to constantly make false affirmations.

And again what is an 'affirmation'? It is often just wishful thinking, the making of a proclamation 'as if'... it were true, when it has not been proven as fact.

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Yaa-de-dah-de-dah!

Most amils I know are also replacement theology.
No Jewish harvest or future

Davy said:

Another big fib by an Amillennialist.

WPM has been given many... Bible Scripture references that proves that the "thousand years" reign by Christ and His elect of Revelation 20 will be a literal time period on earth.

Again, those who heed men's doctrines instead of staying in God's Word as written, love... to constantly make false affirmations.

And again what is an 'affirmation'? It is often just wishful thinking, the making of a proclamation 'as if'... it were true, when it has not been proven as fact.

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You are describing yourself. You are a very frustrated person.

rebuilder 454 said:

Most amils I know are also replacement theology.
No Jewish harvest or future

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Obviously you do not understand Amil. Who do you think they think they have replaced?

WPM said:

Obviously you do not understand Amil. Who do you think they think they have replaced?

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From Google:
"Interpretation of the Millennium:

Amillennialists believe the "thousand years" in Revelation 20 are symbolic, representing the entire period from Christ's ascension to His return, rather than a literal 1,000-year reign on earth.
Current Reign of Christ:
They see Christ's reign as already begun spiritually through the Church and believers, and that the kingdom of God is active in history through Jesus Christ.
No Future Literal Reign:
Amillennialists reject the idea of a future, literal 1,000-year reign of Christ on earth, with a physical kingdom.
Focus on Spiritual Reign:
They emphasize the spiritual nature of Christ's reign during the current church age, with believers reigning with Christ in heaven.
Final Judgment and New Creation:
Amillennialists believe that at the end of the church age, Christ will return in final judgment, establishing a permanent reign in a new heaven and new earth."