GISMYS_7
Well-Known Member
You really want to fight against God's words on the very near rapture??? Those left behind will really suffer the wrath of God.
Hal Lindsay And Time LaHaye Were Deceived
- Thread starter Davy
- Start date
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OK brethren in Christ, who actually read and heed their Bible as written:
The Revelation 7 chapter is about the sealing of Christ's servants in preparation for the "great tribulation" so they will NOT be deceived while going through it. Lord Jesus had already showed in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 that His future coming to gather His Church will be AFTER... that tribulation. So there's NO room for speculation about a rapture of His Church Prior to that "great tribulation". Sorry if you don't like that Truth, but that is the Truth from God's Word as written.
What exactly is that 'sealing' with God's seal about? Notice that is the subject of the Revelation 7:1-3 Scripture from the start...
Rev 7:1-3
7 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
KJV
That idea of the four winds blowing is about the ending of this present world on the last day. Per 2 Peter 3:10, God's "consuming fire" is to burn man's works off this earth completely. That "day of the Lord" Peter mentions is the last day of this present world, and it is also the day when Jesus comes to gather His faithful Church who wait for Him. That is what the angel above is saying to hold back, until God's servants are sealed with His seal in their foreheads. Apostle Paul defined what that 'sealing' with God's seal actually is...
2 Cor 1:21-22
21 Now He Which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;
22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
KJV
Eph 1:13
13 In Whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in Whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
KJV
Eph 4:30
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
KJV
Paul showed in the above Scripture that God's seal comes by Faith on Jesus Christ via The Holy Spirit promise. What did Lord Jesus show in the Book of John what The Holy Spirit is for? Why are Christ's faithful given The Holy Spirit? If you are a believer on Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior, then the answer to that should be easy. The Holy Spirit is our "Comforter" to teach us all things (John 14:26). Might The Holy Spirit be a guard for the believer against being deceived? YES! And that is HOW those in Christ Jesus are SEALED with God's SEAL. It is so we would understand His Word, especially about the events of the end leading up to Christ's future return, so as to NOT BE DECEIVED. Lord Jesus gave His 1st warning SIGN in His Olivet discourse as a command to not let any man deceive us (Matt.24; Mark 13).
Thus the 144,000 of Revelation 7, represent 12,000 literal souls out of each of the Israelite tribes mentioned there. And if you'll notice, not all... of the tribes of Israel are mentioned there, like the tribe of Dan which was first to turn to idol worship. The tribe of Ephraim is not mentioned there among that 144,000 either, as Old Testament prophecy reveals they will be deceived at the end of this world, like Dan. But Ezekiel 48 in final shows them put back in.
Some preachers, because they don't know their Old Testament Book histories very well, treat those 144,000 of Rev.7 as a symbolic number only. For example, man's false Pre-trib Rapture theory treats that 144,000 like something they call 'tribulation saints' put for Jews that convert to Christ during the "great tribulation". That idea is not supported in God's Word because God's Word (like Zechariah 12 and Luke 23:26-30) reveals the unbelieving Jews that enter into the time of "great tribulation" will remain deceived all throughout it, and only when they see Jesus coming in the clouds will they feel shame because having not believed, and instead bowed to the false-Messiah which comes first.
When one gets to the Revelation 7:9 verse, a "great multitude" out of all "nations" is shown to John, and is a future forward vision for after Christ's return, and gathering of the Church, i.e., Christ's Millennial "thousand years" reign time. These we know are SEALED with God's SEAL also, simply because they are shown standing with Christ at God's throne in the world to come. These represent the SEALED Gentiles of the "nations".
Revelation 9 reveals more about what this sealing with God's seal is about for the end during the coming "great tribulation"...
Rev 9:3-6
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.
KJV
Those locusts are NOT allowed to 'sting' anyone sealed with God's seal. That is what that is showing. And those the locusts are... allowed to 'sting', which do NOT have God's seal, those locusts still cannot kill those not sealed.
That phrase in 'red' above is actually revealing quite a bit, once you fathom it.
1. only those WITHOUT God's seal can be stung by those locust.
2. those who ARE sealed with God's seal cannot... be stung.
3. only those WITHOUT God's seal cannot... be killed.
4. those who ARE sealed with God's seal CAN... be killed.
How can that be about Christ's elect for the end, that some of us can be killed just before and during the coming "great tribulation", especially if we have God's sealing? Per Mark 13, Lord Jesus warned that 'some' of us will be delivered up to give a TESTIMONY against the beast, and to not think beforehand what we will say, but speak what The Holy Spirit gives us to say in that "hour". And He commanded us to be faithful even if delivered up to death (Mark 13:12; Rev.2:10).
The 5th Seal also confirms this that some of us at the end will be delivered up and beheaded for that Testimony of Christ against the beast.
Rev 6:9-11
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost Thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?"
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
KJV
God's Word thus warns us about the end AGAINST DECEPTION by the coming false-Messiah, but does not promise that none of us will be executed by the beast for giving that TESTIMONY for Christ against that beast. One of Satan's jobs for today is to get you to reject this Bible Truth written in the Scriptures so that you will not want to be here for Christ in order to give that TESTIMONY against the beast and make that 'stand' for Lord Jesus Christ. We must be strong... in The Faith in order to make that future 'stand for Jesus, and not fall to cowardice like those who seek to physically escape the coming "great tribulation."
The Revelation 7 chapter is about the sealing of Christ's servants in preparation for the "great tribulation" so they will NOT be deceived while going through it. Lord Jesus had already showed in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 that His future coming to gather His Church will be AFTER... that tribulation. So there's NO room for speculation about a rapture of His Church Prior to that "great tribulation". Sorry if you don't like that Truth, but that is the Truth from God's Word as written.
What exactly is that 'sealing' with God's seal about? Notice that is the subject of the Revelation 7:1-3 Scripture from the start...
Rev 7:1-3
7 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
KJV
That idea of the four winds blowing is about the ending of this present world on the last day. Per 2 Peter 3:10, God's "consuming fire" is to burn man's works off this earth completely. That "day of the Lord" Peter mentions is the last day of this present world, and it is also the day when Jesus comes to gather His faithful Church who wait for Him. That is what the angel above is saying to hold back, until God's servants are sealed with His seal in their foreheads. Apostle Paul defined what that 'sealing' with God's seal actually is...
2 Cor 1:21-22
21 Now He Which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;
22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
KJV
Eph 1:13
13 In Whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in Whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
KJV
Eph 4:30
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
KJV
Paul showed in the above Scripture that God's seal comes by Faith on Jesus Christ via The Holy Spirit promise. What did Lord Jesus show in the Book of John what The Holy Spirit is for? Why are Christ's faithful given The Holy Spirit? If you are a believer on Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior, then the answer to that should be easy. The Holy Spirit is our "Comforter" to teach us all things (John 14:26). Might The Holy Spirit be a guard for the believer against being deceived? YES! And that is HOW those in Christ Jesus are SEALED with God's SEAL. It is so we would understand His Word, especially about the events of the end leading up to Christ's future return, so as to NOT BE DECEIVED. Lord Jesus gave His 1st warning SIGN in His Olivet discourse as a command to not let any man deceive us (Matt.24; Mark 13).
Thus the 144,000 of Revelation 7, represent 12,000 literal souls out of each of the Israelite tribes mentioned there. And if you'll notice, not all... of the tribes of Israel are mentioned there, like the tribe of Dan which was first to turn to idol worship. The tribe of Ephraim is not mentioned there among that 144,000 either, as Old Testament prophecy reveals they will be deceived at the end of this world, like Dan. But Ezekiel 48 in final shows them put back in.
Some preachers, because they don't know their Old Testament Book histories very well, treat those 144,000 of Rev.7 as a symbolic number only. For example, man's false Pre-trib Rapture theory treats that 144,000 like something they call 'tribulation saints' put for Jews that convert to Christ during the "great tribulation". That idea is not supported in God's Word because God's Word (like Zechariah 12 and Luke 23:26-30) reveals the unbelieving Jews that enter into the time of "great tribulation" will remain deceived all throughout it, and only when they see Jesus coming in the clouds will they feel shame because having not believed, and instead bowed to the false-Messiah which comes first.
When one gets to the Revelation 7:9 verse, a "great multitude" out of all "nations" is shown to John, and is a future forward vision for after Christ's return, and gathering of the Church, i.e., Christ's Millennial "thousand years" reign time. These we know are SEALED with God's SEAL also, simply because they are shown standing with Christ at God's throne in the world to come. These represent the SEALED Gentiles of the "nations".
Revelation 9 reveals more about what this sealing with God's seal is about for the end during the coming "great tribulation"...
Rev 9:3-6
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.
KJV
Those locusts are NOT allowed to 'sting' anyone sealed with God's seal. That is what that is showing. And those the locusts are... allowed to 'sting', which do NOT have God's seal, those locusts still cannot kill those not sealed.
That phrase in 'red' above is actually revealing quite a bit, once you fathom it.
1. only those WITHOUT God's seal can be stung by those locust.
2. those who ARE sealed with God's seal cannot... be stung.
3. only those WITHOUT God's seal cannot... be killed.
4. those who ARE sealed with God's seal CAN... be killed.
How can that be about Christ's elect for the end, that some of us can be killed just before and during the coming "great tribulation", especially if we have God's sealing? Per Mark 13, Lord Jesus warned that 'some' of us will be delivered up to give a TESTIMONY against the beast, and to not think beforehand what we will say, but speak what The Holy Spirit gives us to say in that "hour". And He commanded us to be faithful even if delivered up to death (Mark 13:12; Rev.2:10).
The 5th Seal also confirms this that some of us at the end will be delivered up and beheaded for that Testimony of Christ against the beast.
Rev 6:9-11
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost Thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?"
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
KJV
God's Word thus warns us about the end AGAINST DECEPTION by the coming false-Messiah, but does not promise that none of us will be executed by the beast for giving that TESTIMONY for Christ against that beast. One of Satan's jobs for today is to get you to reject this Bible Truth written in the Scriptures so that you will not want to be here for Christ in order to give that TESTIMONY against the beast and make that 'stand' for Lord Jesus Christ. We must be strong... in The Faith in order to make that future 'stand for Jesus, and not fall to cowardice like those who seek to physically escape the coming "great tribulation."
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The first ones TAKEN will be the ones who will suffer God's Wrath on the 7th Vial.
Luke 17:33-37
33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
Humm...., those who seek to FLY AWAY to save their life, SHALL LOSE IT? Yes! That is what Lord Jesus is saying there above.
The Matthew 10:39 version of that above verse says whoever shall lose his life for Jesus'... sake, shall preserve it (meaning Eternal Life).
So already there in those Luke 17 verses, Jesus is telling us to NOT FEAR with losing our flesh life for His sake.
34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
The above is WRONGLY interpreted by the false Pre-trib Rapture doctors to mean Christ 'takes' His Church out, rapturing them to Heaven prior to the "great tribulation", which idea is NOWHERE WRITTEN ANYWHERE IN GOD'S WORD.
Folks like Hal Lindsay and Tim LaHaye made extremely comfortable livings off the money they earned from selling fake Pre-trib Rapture books and movies. Lot of fake prosperity preachers have sprung among that false Pre-trib Rapture crowd also.
37 And they answered and said unto Him, "Where, Lord?" And He said unto them, "Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together."
KJV
The Matthew 28 version of the above answer by Lord Jesus is more telling...
Matt 24:28
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
KJV
Are those in Christ like a dead "carcase" where the fowl that eat on the dead will be gathered at? NO WAY! That is NOT about those in Christ. It is about the SPIRITUALLY DEAD WHO ARE DECEIVED!
WHO then is the one that TAKES those 1st ones? That is the DEVIL himself that takes those first ones! And WHERE does he 'take' them? Like Jesus answered, "For wheresoever THE CARCASE is, there will the eagles be gathered together." That means the kind of fowls that EAT the dead!
Brethren, did you not know that both The Old Testament prophets and Lord Jesus in The New Testament referred to Satan and his host as FOWLS, birds of prey?
Matt 13:3-4
3 And He spake many things unto them in parables, saying, "Behold, a sower went forth to sow;
4 And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:"
KJV
Then Lord Jesus' explanation of the above analogy about the fowls devouring the seed sown by the way side (a way side means a hardened path)...
Matt 13:19
19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
KJV
The Light
Well-Known Member
Davy,
If you understood the Word of God you would understand that the great tribulation is OVER at the sixth seal.
And if you understood the word of God, you would understand that the 70th week of Daniel is about the people of Daniel and not the Church.
And if you understood the Word of God, you would understand that the Church is in heaven before the seals are opened.
You should be watching as He is coming in an hour that you think not. Don't you believe Him?
And if you understood the Word of God, you would understand you should be watching and praying that you may be accounted worthy to escape ALL THESE THINGS that will come to pass.
Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
The Light
Well-Known Member
Oh boy. We must have different Bibles. Mine says at the gathering from heaven and earth which occurs at 6th seal the first ones gathered are the righteous. It is the unrighteous that are cast into the wrath of God after the righteous are gathered
Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
The following verses are not about the Church as we will already be in heaven before this happens. This occurs at the end of the age which is the 6th seal. If you understood the Word of God you would understand that the Lord says and we fly away. You seem to think that believing what God says is a bad thing.
Psalms 90
10 The days of our years are threescore years and ten; and if by reason of strength they be fourscore years, yet is their strength labour and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away.
Oh the blindness. You might look here.
Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
If you understood the Word of God you would understand that the Lord is saying where He is..........we will be.
At the gathering from heaven and earth at the 6th seal, He sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth. We will go with Him when he comes at the 6th seal for a harvest.
If you understood the Word of God you would understand that leading people from the truth is not wise.
tailgator
Well-Known Member
No one is being decieved during the great tribulation. They are being slaughtered.
The people being sealed are all of Daniels people who are being delivered and resurected from their graves at that time of great tribulation
Daniel :1-2
And at that time Michael the great prince shall stand up, that stands over the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of tribulation, such tribulation as has not been from the time that there was a nation on the earth until that time: at that time thy people shall be delivered, even every one that is written in the book.
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to reproach and everlasting shame.
tailgator
Well-Known Member
Who are these people coming out of their graves during the great tribulation?
Daniel :1-2
And at that time Michael the great prince shall stand up, that stands over the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of tribulation, such tribulation as has not been from the time that there was a nation on the earth until that time: at that time thy people shall be delivered, even every one that is written in the book.
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to reproach and everlasting shame.
If Jesus comes after this great tribulation,when the dead come out of the dust of the earth,then how do you claim they resurrect themselves?
The Light
Well-Known Member
For the elects sake, the great tribulation is shortened. If the great tribulation was not shortened no believer would be raptured alive. All would be dead and come out of their graves.
Matthew 24
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Then Jesus returns and sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth
Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Also note that it says that MANY that sleep in the dust of the earth will be raised. Only the people of Daniel get raised here. This harvest is also seen in Revelation 14
tailgator
Well-Known Member
The people of Daniel (Israelites)are the 144,000 who are redeemed from the soil.(Resurected)
Like Daniel said in Daniel 12:1-2.They awaken from their sleep in the dust ,awaked at the time of great tribulation.
They were killed in Israel during the previous 42 months for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God.They did not receive Netanyahu's mark.
The Light
Well-Known Member
The 144,000 are the first fruits of the harvest that occurs at the 6th seal. First fruits come before the harvest.
The mark of the beast will be required by a former king of the North who does not regard the God of his fathers nor the desire of women. He will be given the stephanos crown which is the symbol of the UN. Has nothing to do with Netanyahu.
tailgator
Well-Known Member
False
The king of the north who moves his embassy to Jerusalem gives the beast a host that will practice the authority of the beast on its behalf.
The mark is only required to buy and sell in Israel .Netanyahu is the first one who said he wants everyone in Israel to receive implantable microchips .It was his idea to begin with .
The saints are not killed for refusing the mark of the beast.Jesus openly tells his followers that they will not buy anything in Israel till he comes.He also tells his followers to not leave Israel but to preach the gospel throughout Israel till he comes.He tells his followers that they will be beaten the synagogues and betrayed to death by their family members in Israel.
It is still the Knesset (high synagogue)which makes the laws in Israel.Not Israels ally,the king of the north.
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rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
Rev 6
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
That there,( Rev 6)..... is Rev 19.
(The second coming on white horses).
In your breakdown, you are Using a strict definition of "tribulation cannot be wrath" Prism to interpret all end times through.
If you go back and read revelation 15 through 18. You will see that that wrath, (which is after the gathering of the main harvest of Jews), Is not what revelations 6 is saying "the day of the wrath of the lamb".
When it says the "day of the wrath of the lamb" it is talking about revelation nineteen, which is the second coming on the white horses.
Which aligns perfectly with Matthew 24, When Jesus said after the tribulation.
He's talking about the great tribulation (7 year great trib) but you separate it into some 3 and a 1/2 years of tribulation, and then some months of wrath,(or something).
But it is error to think that "the day of the wrath of the lamb", is the exact same thing as the wrath of God, which is the description used in revelation 15 through 18.
...as Matt 24 declares.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
That is the second coming on white horses.
That is the end of the 7 yr gt
Note: "THE CARCASSES", referred to AT ARMAGEDDON.
That AUTHENTICATES the FACT that it CANNOT BE DURING Rev 15-18.
It ONLY FITS the white horse coming.
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Yeah, and I ALREADY TOLD YOU that I know the tribulation is over at that 6th Seal, because that 6th Seal (2nd part of it only) is the time of God's 7th Vial cup of wrath poured out into the "air" (Rev.16).
BUT YOU DON'T LISTEN, BUT JUST KEEP RAMBLING.
IF you keep man's FALSE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE tradition, then YOU do... have a different Bible than mine. What you have is the FAKE bible which those PRE-TRIB RAPTURE DOCTORS falsely claim.
Jesus showed the FIRST ONES 'TAKEN' are by the DEVIL and his host, because when Christ's Apostles asked Jesus "Where, Lord?", as to where those first ones 'taken' would be taken to, Jesus' answer was to wheresoever the fowls are that eat on a DEAD CARCASE. If you think that means to Lord Jesus Christ then you are NUTS!
Ain't nobody 'raptured' prior, nor during, the "great tribulation". That is what you are trying... to suggest.
Jesus was talking about shortening the "great tribulation" TIME, not changing when the event of His coming to gather His Church will be. The order of events for the end remain, only that instead of the Daniel symbolic 3.5 years (1260 days) for the trib time, Jesus made it shorter. And you probably don't have a clue as to what Jesus shortened it to, when He did reveal it in His Word. Good luck finding it, since you love to twist so many Bible Scriptures around until they are totally unrecognizable.
And for the one thousandth time brethren, Jesus showed in the following that His coming to gather the Church will be AFTER... that tribulation He was describing there...
Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV
So I don't know why... those here who follow man's false Pre-trib Rapture theory would try... to use the above Matthew 25 Scripture, when it is completely AGAINST the doctrine of a pre-trib rapture gathering of the Church.
Furthermore, the above Matthew 24:29-31 version is about Jesus gathering His 'asleep' saints from Heaven, and brings those with Him when He comes. Apostle Paul showed that in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-16, and the fact that those 'asleep' saints must be resurrected first before Jesus will bring them when He descends from Heaven.
In the Mark 13:24-27 version of that above Matt.24 event, Jesus showed His gathering of the alive saints still on earth when He comes, which is the "caught up" event of 1 Thessalonians 4:17 which Apostle Paul was talking about.
The Light
Well-Known Member
And is if you listening you would be aware that you are jumping right to the 7th vial when the 7th seal opens and pretending those 6 trumpets and 6 vials aren't there.
The 6th seal happens and then the 7th seal is opened which contains the trumpets and vials. The reason you jump straight to the 7th is because you do not understand the Word of God.
The Light
Well-Known Member
And yet I just showed you in Revelation 14 that the righteous are gathered first. It never occurs to you that there is more than one harvest and He will come in an hour that you think not.
That above is just IGNORANT.
The 6th Seal timing and the 7th Vial timing, and the 7th Trumpet timing ARE ALL THE SAME TIMING, i.e., the day of Christ's future coming to gather His Church and end the trib and beast working. And it is EASY to know this because of how SIMPLY it is written in God's Word.
Revelation 6:14-17,
6th Seal - time of the FINAL 7TH VIAL when God's Wrath is poured out.
Revelation 16:17,
7th Vial - time of the FINAL 7TH VIAL when God's cup of Wrath is poured out.
Revelation 11:15,
7th Trumpet - time when all the kingdoms of this world become those of The Father and His Son.
Like I've said before, you don't have a clue. Instead you just follow men's theories about how the flow of events are in Christ's Book of Revelation.
The 7 SIGNS of the END is what Jesus covered in His Olivet discourse. Those 7 SIGNS are the SEALS of Revelation 6, and the 7 Trumpets, and the 7 Vials.
The 7th Seal is a SELAH parenthetical expression. That is why there is a SELAH, period of silence attached to it. And per the SELAH in the Pslams, which means a PAUSE, that means to PONDER what had just been covered! Well, what was just covered with those last Revelation 6:14-17 events on the 6th SEAL? The END of this world with Jesus' coming and God's cup of wrath poured out on the LAST DAY.
6th SEAL EVENT:
Rev 6:14
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
KJV
What event is the above related to? The LAST DAY of this present world. As the following verses are of the SAME timing also...
Isa 34:4
4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.
KJV
2 Peter 3:10
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
KJV
7th VIAL EVENT:
Rev 16:20
20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
KJV
That above reveals the ORDER of events written in Revelation are NOT always in sequential order. Even with the 1st Seal about the false rider on a white horse of Rev.6 is not the first event of the end that will happen.
Thus is it MORE important to FOCUS on the EVENTS given in the Revelation Scripture, and not so much on the NUMBERS. Jesus comes on 7-7-7 (7th Seal, 7th Trumpet, 7th Vial, all SAME timing). Satan comes as the false-Messiah on 666.
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No, you did NOT show any such thing from the Revelation 14 Scripture.
That Revelation 14:1-5 view is a FUTURE-FORWARD VIEW for AFTER... Jesus has returned and is reigning with His saints in the world to come. It is DIRECTLY LINKED to the timing given in Revelation 15:2-4 with those who sing the Song of Moses, which is a FUTURE-FORWARD MILLENNIUM VIEW...
Rev 15:2-4
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.
4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.
KJV
You still have not learned how to RIGHTLY DIVIDE the Scriptures according to their TIMELINE SUBJECTS. It shows you DO NOT KNOW YOUR OLD TESTAMENT HISTORIES also.
The Light
Well-Known Member
No, Revelation 6 is not Revelation 19
Revelation 6 is the coming of Jesus for a harvest. He sends His angels to gather the elect heaven and earth. He comes immediately after the great tribulation which is when Christians are being killed for their faith and to be more accurate, they are of the twelve tribes across the earth. The 70th week of Daniel is about the people of Daniel. This is why those that come out of great tribulation and got victory over the beast are singing the song of Moses.
THEN the wrath of God begins. Revelation 19 occurs at the end of the wrath of God. The wrath of God is the 7th seal. Both the trumpets and vials of Gods wrath occur in the 7th seal.
The great tribulation is when Christians are hunted down and killed. The wrath of God is when God pours out His wrath on an unbelieving world.
The Church is in heaven before the great tribulation. God turns His attention to the Jews. That is why there are 144,000 first fruits of the 12 tribes. That is why those that get victory over the beast with the blood of the Lamb are singing the song of Moses.
And there is not a 7 year tribulation. There is a 7 year period from the time a covenant with many is made.
The wrath of Lamb and the wrath of God are the same thing. Is Jesus God? Of course. Does Jesus lead the armies of heaven during the wrath of God. Nuff said.
You stopped. Why leave out the verse that tells us what is happening.
Matthew 24
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
This is a harvest.........a rapture. This is not Armageddon. Right after this harvest we see a great multitude in heaven.
Revelation 7
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Where do you think this great multitude comes from? It comes from the harvest at the 6th. All remain in heaven for the marriage supper. They are in heaven for one year while the trumpets and vials of God wrath happens. After this Revelation 19 white happens.
The tribulation is over at the 6th seal. Then the wrath of God begins. Tribulation is not wrath.
I'm missing your point.
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