Hal Lindsay And Time LaHaye Were Deceived

tailgator · Mar 10, 2025

The Light said:
I don't believe those 1st century saints are the ones under the altar at the 5th seal. Those saints will already be in heaven with new bodies before the seals are opened. The dead in Christ rise first which is the barley harvest. Those souls under the altar will not be raised until the great tribulation is over at the 6th seal. This is the fruit harvest.

The great tribulation is over at the 6th seal. Can you show the verses you are talking about where John describes the AOD in Revelation 6?

You seem not to realize that there is war in heaven and the stars fall from heaven at the 6th seal.

Armageddon is coming.

This is describing the abomination that causes desolation set up by the US armed forces .The AOD is what causes great tribulation.

Nuclear war.AKA Armegeddon.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

tailgator · Mar 10, 2025

The Light said:
You do realize that these events are about the 12 tribes across the earth, don't you? The Church is already in heaven.

They are the seed of the woman Israel, the twelve tribes across the earth. The Church is in heaven.

We will be there no doubt.

Have you figured out who the king of the south is?

Daniel 11 :33-35 takes place in Israel after the arrival of the king of the norths armed forces.
Daniel 11:33-35 is about the christians in Israel who are beaten in the synagogues and persecuted throughout all of Israels cities.This persecution is about are Israelis killing Israeli Christian.They come unto their own and their own recieve them not.

Mathew 10
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

The king of the south was Saddam in the earlier part of the chapter when the king of the north twice invaded his kingdom .I don't know the name of the current king.

Davy · Mar 10, 2025

The Light said:
...
No. Jesus is in heaven for the marriage supper in Revelation 15

....

The post above is an example of how the deceived allow men's doctrines to get interjected (added) into God's Word, which causes their deceptions. The Revelation 15 Chapter events must... be rightly divided according to its moving timeline.

Rev 15
15 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

The subject of Rev.15 starts off being about the 7 Vials of God's wrath that are poured out upon the beast during the coming time of "great tribulation". The final 7th Vial ends that tribulation and is when Jesus comes to gather His faithful Church who wait for Him as chaste virgins.

2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

The above verse is a future timeline. It is a view for after... the tribulation has ended by Christ's future coming. It is a view of the elect saints of the "first resurrection" of Revelation 20 that will have gotten victory over the mark of the beast and the false idol worship that happens during the coming "great tribulation". That is a link back to those of the Revelation 14:1-5 elect which appear with Christ in His future Kingdom at God's Throne after Jesus had come and gathered them on the last day of this world.

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, "Great and marvellous are Thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are Thy ways, Thou King of saints."

That also is the same timeline view of the future with Christ's elect saints in His future Kingdom on earth having been gathered to Him, and that is when Christ's elect will sing that "song of Moses". (do you know it? it is written back in The Old Testament.)

4 Who shall not fear Thee, O Lord, and glorify Thy name? for Thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before Thee; for Thy judgments are made manifest.

That again is a future... timeline view of Christ's future Kingdom on earth after His future return, His reigning over the nations of the earth with His elect using His promised "rod of iron" of Psalms 2. That is when ALL... nations will be required to come up to Jerusalem from year to year and worship The KING (Jesus), and keep the Feast of Tabernacles, per the end of Zechariah 14. (That takes place UPON THIS EARTH by the way.)

5 And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened:

Now with the above verse, the prophetic timeline now jumps to the "great tribulation" timing PRIOR to Christ's coming to gather His saints.

6 And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.
7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, Who liveth for ever and ever.
8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from His power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.
KJV

Revelation 16 is about those seven vials of God's wrath being poured out upon the beast, on the earth, for during the time of "great tribulation", and with the final 7th Vial ending this present world with Christ's coming to gather His Church. Per Revelation 16:15, Lord Jesus is STILL warning His 'faithful' Church that He comes "as a thief", and for us to keep our garments, etc. That "as a thief" idea is a direct link to the last day of this world on the "day of the Lord". That is the day Lord Jesus comes to gather His faithful Church who wait for Him.

Therefore, those in Christ are to 'rightly divide' God's Word, like Apostle Paul told Timothy in 2 Timothy 2:15.

Davy · Mar 10, 2025

The Light said:
You do realize that these events are about the 12 tribes across the earth, don't you? The Church is already in heaven.

They are the seed of the woman Israel, the twelve tribes across the earth. The Church is in heaven.

That above once again is a false doctrine not written in God's Word. It comes from men's false pre-trib rapture theory.

The events of the coming time of "great tribulation" is not only... upon the unbelieving Jews. And this is easy to know, because Lord Jesus showed in His Olivet discourse SIGNS that some of us in His Church will be delivered up to give a TESTIMONY against the beast by The Holy Spirit speaking through us. Jesus told us to NOT premeditate what we will say in that "hour", but to speak what The Holy Spirit gives us to say (Mark 13). In the Luke 21:12-19 version, Jesus showed that His enemies will not be able to gainsay, nor resist the wisdom that The Holy Spirit will give us to speak in that "hour". It is going to really... tick off Satan and his host! God is going to speak through His elect to the WHOLE WORLD in that hour.

Also in Luke 21:20-22, Jesus warned His servants in the countries (that's us, His Church in those countries at that time), to NOT enter into Jerusalem at that time at the end of the "great tribulation" (because He will be getting ready to destroy the false-Messiah and 7,000 of Satan's elect there in Jerusalem with His future coming on the "day of the Lord." (7th Vial of Rev.16:15 linked to His future coming per Zechariah 14).

Likewise per Revelation 11, God's "two witnesses" will do that future TESTIMONY against the beast too, from Jerusalem. Because once the dead bodies of those "two witnesses" lay in the street in Jerusalem unburied, and all nations will SEE them, that means that future event will be televised via satellite to all nations. It means it would not happen until satellite and cell phone technology were discovered. That means it is most likely is a sign of the end for today's present generation.

The Light · Mar 10, 2025

Davy said:
The post above is an example of how the deceived allow men's doctrines to get interjected (added) into God's Word, which causes their deceptions. The Revelation 15 Chapter events must... be rightly divided according to its moving timeline.

And this is an example of the blind telling the world what they see.

Davy said:
Rev 15
15 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

The subject of Rev.15 starts off being about the 7 Vials of God's wrath that are poured out upon the beast during the coming time of "great tribulation". The final 7th Vial ends that tribulation and is when Jesus comes to gather His faithful Church who wait for Him as chaste virgins.

How is it that you do not understand that the great tribulation is over at the 6th seal? THIS IS SIMPLE.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the
heavens shall be shaken:

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

You will be clueless until you understand that the tribulation is over at the 6th seal. God provides a roadmap to understand His word. The Bible explains the Bible.

Davy said:
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

The above verse is a future timeline. It is a view for after... the tribulation has ended by Christ's future coming. It is a view of the elect saints of the "first resurrection" of Revelation 20 that will have gotten victory over the mark of the beast and the false idol worship that happens during the coming "great tribulation". That is a link back to those of the Revelation 14:1-5 elect which appear with Christ in His future Kingdom at God's Throne after Jesus had come and gathered them on the last day of this world.

How is it that you do not understand that the end of the age occurs at the 6th seal?

Rev 15:2 is just another view of this verse.

Rev 7
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Davy said:
3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, "Great and marvellous are Thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are Thy ways, Thou King of saints."

That also is the same timeline view of the future with Christ's elect saints in His future Kingdom on earth having been gathered to Him, and that is when Christ's elect will sing that "song of Moses". (do you know it? it is written back in The Old Testament.)

How is it that you do not understand that they sing the song of Moses because they are Jews? This is a harvest that occurs at the 6th seal. It is a gathering from heaven and earth seen here.

Mark 13
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Davy said:
4 Who shall not fear Thee, O Lord, and glorify Thy name? for Thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before Thee; for Thy judgments are made manifest.

That again is a future... timeline view of Christ's future Kingdom on earth after His future return, His reigning over the nations of the earth with His elect using His promised "rod of iron" of Psalms 2. That is when ALL... nations will be required to come up to Jerusalem from year to year and worship The KING (Jesus), and keep the Feast of Tabernacles, per the end of Zechariah 14. (That takes place UPON THIS EARTH by the way.)

Correct.

Davy said:
5 And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened:

Now with the above verse, the prophetic timeline now jumps to the "great tribulation" timing PRIOR to Christ's coming to gather His saints.

Back to being clueless. The above puts us at the 7th seal. The great tribulation is over at the 6th seal. See above.

Davy said:
6 And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.
7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, Who liveth for ever and ever.
8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from His power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.
KJV

Revelation 16 is about those seven vials of God's wrath being poured out upon the beast, on the earth, for during the time of "great tribulation", and with the final 7th Vial ending this present world with Christ's coming to gather His Church.

The great tribulation is over at the 6th seal. The Church has been gathered before any seals are opened. See Revelation 5. Revelation 16 is when the angels pour out the vials of wrath occurs in the 7th seal. The 7th seal is the day of the Lord, the one-year wrath of God.

Until you understand that the great tribulation is not the wrath of God, you are babbling nonsense. The great tribulation is when Christians are hunted down and killed for not taking the mark of the beast. It is over at the 6th seal. The wrath of God is the Day of the Lord, when God pours our His vengeance on an unbelieving world. This is the 7th seal which contains the trumpets and vials of wrath.

Davy said:
Per Revelation 16:15, Lord Jesus is STILL warning His 'faithful' Church that He comes "as a thief", and for us to keep our garments, etc.

The Church is in heaven BEFORE the seals are opened. These verses are about when the Lord comes with the armies of heaven at Armageddon.
Revelation 16:15
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

There are no Christians on earth at this time. They are at the marriage supper. We will come to the earth as part of the armies of heaven.

Revelation 19
6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

Davy said:
That "as a thief" idea is a direct link to the last day of this world on the "day of the Lord". That is the day Lord Jesus comes to gather His faithful Church who wait for Him.

The end of the age occurs at the 6th seal with the gathering from heaven and earth. The day of the Lord is NOT when Jesus comes to gather the Church. It is when He comes for vengeance on an unbelieving world.

Revelation 16
9 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

Davy said:
Therefore, those in Christ are to 'rightly divide' God's Word, like Apostle Paul told Timothy in 2 Timothy 2:15.

You need to start rightly dividing the Word of God by understanding that the tribulation is over at the 6th seal. The wrath of God is the 7th seal.

Spiritual Israelite · Mar 10, 2025

The Light said:
The great tribulation is over at the 6th seal. The Church has been gathered before any seals are opened. See Revelation 5.

Wrong. The church is not gathered before any seals are opened. That is a completely baseless claim. The church is not even gathered yet as of the time of the sixth vial, as evidenced by the fact that Jesus is still saying at that point that He is coming as a thief. Jesus coming as a thief is directly related to when He comes to gather the church to Himself.

The Light said:
There are no Christians on earth at this time. They are at the marriage supper. We will come to the earth as part of the armies of heaven.

Revelation 19
6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

Total nonsense. No Christians on earth when Jesus comes? Get serious. That would make 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 false. Revelation 19 is referring to the souls of the dead in Christ. Do you not believe that the souls of the dead in Christ are in heaven?

The Light said:
The end of the age occurs at the 6th seal with the gathering from heaven and earth. The day of the Lord is NOT when Jesus comes to gather the Church.

Wrong. You are blatantly contradicting what Paul taught in 1 Thesslonians 4:14-5:3 and here:

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

Paul indicated that the day when Jesus comes and we are gathered to Him is "the day of the Lord" and he said that day will not come until the rebellion (falling away) and man of lawlessness (man of sin) is revealed first. So, your comment is 100% wrong.

Then there is this passage as well:

2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

When else will he "come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe" except for the day when He gathers the Church? This passage indicates that He will destroy His enemies on that same day, which is the day of the Lord when He comes as a thief in the night to bring "sudden destruction" upon His enemies from which "they shall not escape" (1 Thess 5:2-3).

The Light · Mar 10, 2025

Davy said:
That above once again is a false doctrine not written in God's Word. It comes from men's false pre-trib rapture theory.

Actually, most of those that believe in a pretribulation rapture do not understand that there are two raptures. The rapture of the Church occurs before the tribulation. This is the barley and wheat harvest. The second harvest is those that sing the song of Moses. They are Jews.

The fig tree has two harvests as seen here.

Hosea 9
10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

Davy said:
The events of the coming time of "great tribulation" is not only... upon the unbelieving Jews.

The 70th week of Daniel is about the people of Daniel.

Daniel 9
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

God turns His attention to the Jews after the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. We are warned not to be ignorant of this.

Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Davy said:
And this is easy to know, because Lord Jesus showed in His Olivet discourse SIGNS that some of us in His Church will be delivered up to give a TESTIMONY against the beast by The Holy Spirit speaking through us. Jesus told us to NOT premeditate what we will say in that "hour", but to speak what The Holy Spirit gives us to say (Mark 13). In the Luke 21:12-19 version, Jesus showed that His enemies will not be able to gainsay, nor resist the wisdom that The Holy Spirit will give us to speak in that "hour". It is going to really... tick off Satan and his host! God is going to speak through His elect to the WHOLE WORLD in that hour.

The Lord's ministry was to the Jews. Those that are told to flee when the abomination of desolation is set up are Jews. The Church will already be in heaven before the great tribulation. See Revelation 5.

Davy said:
Also in Luke 21:20-22, Jesus warned His servants in the countries (that's us, His Church in those countries at that time), to NOT enter into Jerusalem at that time at the end of the "great tribulation" (because He will be getting ready to destroy the false-Messiah and 7,000 of Satan's elect there in Jerusalem with His future coming on the "day of the Lord." (7th Vial of Rev.16:15 linked to His future coming per Zechariah 14).

The great tribulation is over at the 6th seal. The Church will be in heaven before any seals are opened.

Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Spiritual Israelite · Mar 10, 2025

The Light said:
Actually, most of those that believe in a pretribulation rapture do not understand that there are two raptures.

That is not taught in scripture. If there will be two raptures, then why did Paul only teach about one? Was he somehow not aware of the second one? Do you think you know more than Paul did about the future?

The Light · Mar 10, 2025

Spiritual Israelite said:
Wrong. The church is not gathered before any seals are opened. That is a completely baseless claim. The church is not even gathered yet as of the time of the sixth vial, as evidenced by the fact that Jesus is still saying at that point that He is coming as a thief. Jesus coming as a thief is directly related to when He comes to gather the church to Himself.

The 70th week of Daniel is about the people of Daniel. Why so many want to make it about the Church is puzzling.

Spiritual Israelite said:
Total nonsense. No Christians on earth when Jesus comes? Get serious. That would make 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 false.

The dead in Christ rise first.....barley harvest. He brings them with Him when He returns for the alive that remained........wheat harvest.

Spiritual Israelite said:
Revelation 19 is referring to the souls of the dead in Christ. Do you not believe that the souls of the dead in Christ are in heaven?

How can that be true when the Lord returns at the 6th seal and sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth.

Spiritual Israelite said:
Wrong. You are blatantly contradicting what Paul taught in 1 Thesslonians 4:14-5:3 and here:

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

No. This is talking about the gathering from heaven and earth before the Day of the Lord.

Paul is saying that you can't be in the Day of the Lord until the man of sin is revealed.

Spiritual Israelite said:
Paul indicated that the day when Jesus comes and we are gathered to Him is "the day of the Lord" and he said that day will not come until the rebellion (falling away) and man of lawlessness (man of sin) is revealed first. So, your comment is 100% wrong.

The Day of the Lord is vengeance. It is not the rapture of the Church. Do you not believe that He will come in an hour that you think not?

Matthew 24
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Spiritual Israelite said:
Then there is this passage as well:

2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

When else will he "come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe" except for the day when He gathers the Church? This passage indicates that He will destroy His enemies on that same day, which is the day of the Lord when He comes as a thief in the night to bring "sudden destruction" upon His enemies from which "they shall not escape" (1 Thess 5:2-3).

How can you possibly understand that Jesus returns at the 6th seal for the gathering from heaven and earth and not understand this?

The Light · Mar 10, 2025

Spiritual Israelite said:
That is not taught in scripture. If there will be two raptures, then why did Paul only teach about one? Was he somehow not aware of the second one? Do you think you know more than Paul did about the future?

The Lord Himself comes for His bride the Church in 1 Thes 4.

He sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth in 1 Corinthians 15

Paul taught about two. You only see one.

Douggg · Mar 10, 2025

The Light said:
How is it that you do not understand that the great tribulation is over at the 6th seal? THIS IS SIMPLE.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the
heavens shall be shaken:

Most of the great tribulation is over in Matthew 24:29. Not all of it.

And yes, Matthew 24:29 is the sixth seal when the powers of the heavens are shaken.

The great tribulation = 1335 days, Daniel 12:12
The tribulation of those days = 1290 days, Daniel 12:11

What it means is that the statue image of the beast king will be setup 1335 days before Jesus returns. And then from the day the statue image is setup, 1290 days later, Matthew 24:29, the sixth seal event takes place - and the world sees Jesus in the third heaven, sickle in hand, the sign of the Son of man in heaven, Matthew 24:30a.

Which causes the reaction of the kings of the earth to gather their armies at Armageddon, for 45 days, to prepare to make war on Jesus and His army.

Look on my chart, down in the lower right hand corner. I show the 1335 days and 1290 days. Please, I am not trying to be combative, arguing,.......just refine your view a bit.

Spiritual Israelite · Mar 10, 2025

The Light said:
The 70th week of Daniel is about the people of Daniel. Why so many want to make it about the Church is puzzling.

The 70th week has nothing to do with what we're talking about.

The Light said:
The dead in Christ rise first.....barley harvest.

Show wme where scripture teaches that the resurrection of the dead in Christ is the "barley harvest". Good luck. It's not taught anywhere. Paul only taught one rapture. Why are you trying to get around that? If Paul taught one rapture, which he did, then there's one rapture. The lack of respect for Paul's teachings that I see from some on this forum is appalling.

The Light said:
He brings them with Him when He returns for the alive that remained........wheat harvest.

No, He brings their souls with Him when He descends from heaven the one time He does that in the future. You are absolutely butchering 1 Thess 4:14-17. That passage refers to one rapture where the souls of the dead in Christ come with Him from heaven and then what happens is that their bodies are resurrected first and then they, together with those who are alive and remain, are caught up to meet the Lord in the air. One rapture. Not two. You should not twist scripture like 1 Thess 4:14-17 beyond recognition just to keep your doctrine afloat.

The Light said:
How can that be true when the Lord returns at the 6th seal and sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth.

Very easily. The ones gathered from heaven are obviously the souls of the dead in Christ. The ones gathered from earth are the resurrected bodies of the dead in Christ with those who are alive and remain. Very simple.

The Light said:
No. This is talking about the gathering from heaven and earth before the Day of the Lord.

There is no gathering from heaven and earth before the day of the Lord. It happens on the day of the Lord as Paul shows in his teachings.

The Light said:
Paul is saying that you can't be in the Day of the Lord until the man of sin is revealed.

Right. The day of the Lord is the day of His coming and our being gathered to Him. The day of the one and only rapture in other words. Stop trying to make Paul say what you want him to say. He references Christ's coming and our being gathered to Him in 2 Thess 2:1 and then in the next verse he clarifies that no one should believe any claim that the day of His coming and our being gathered to Him, which he refferd to in that verse as "the day of the Lord" is at hand because certain things had to happen first such as the falling away and the man of sin being revealed.

The Light said:
The Day of the Lord is vengeance. It is not the rapture of the Church.

Wrong. You are blatantly contradicting what Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:3, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 and 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3. In each passage he has the rapture occurring on the day of the Lord which is the day of Christ's one and only future coming.

The Light said:
Do you not believe that He will come in an hour that you think not?

Of course. Why do you ask? While there are things that have to happen first before He comes, but that doesn't mean we can know the hour that He will come even if we think those things have happened. Paul didn't say how long after those things happen that Jesus would come. Jesus Himself said that we can know when His coming is near (Matt 24:32-33), but that doesn't mean we can know the day or hour of His coming.

The Light said:
How can you possibly understand that Jesus returns at the 6th seal for the gathering from heaven and earth and not understand this?

Understand what exactly? I understand that you don't know what you're talking about.

Spiritual Israelite · Mar 10, 2025

Douggg said:
Most of the great tribulation is over in Matthew 24:29. Not all of it.

Good grief. So, when Jesus said "AFTER the tribulation of those days" in that verse, He didn't really mean that? Come on, Douggg. Get serious. You think someone is going to believe you over Jesus? Jesus says it's over in Matthew 24:29. Accept that instead of once again just believing whatever you want to believe.

Spiritual Israelite · Mar 10, 2025

The Light said:
The Lord Himself comes for His bride the Church in 1 Thes 4.

He comes with His bride and for His bride at that time. That's why Jesus talked about the elect being gathered both from heaven and on earth. The elect from heaven, which is the part of His bride in heaven, are the souls of the dead in Christ. You do believe that the souls of the dead in Christ are in heaven, don't you? I've asked you this a few times and it seems you never answer, which makes me wonder if you believe in soul sleep. Do you?

Anyway, the elect gathered from earth are His bride on earth. The bodies of the dead in Christ are then resurrected first after which their souls unite with their bodies and they, along with those who are alive and remain, are then caught up to meet Christ in the air.

Scripture says that Jesus will come from heaven in the manner He ascended there (Acts 1:9-11) and that He will appear a second time unto salvation (Heb 9:28). There's no mention of this third coming of Jesus that you believe in anywhere.

The Light said:
He sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth in 1 Corinthians 15

Paul taught about two. You only see one.

That second statement is absolutely false and you have done nothing to back that up.

The Light · Mar 11, 2025

Spiritual Israelite said:
The 70th week has nothing to do with what we're talking about.

This comment makes it obvious you don't understand what is to come. The 70 week is not complete.

Spiritual Israelite said:
Show wme where scripture teaches that the resurrection of the dead in Christ is the "barley harvest". Good luck. It's not taught anywhere.

Colossians 2
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Spiritual Israelite said:
Paul only taught one rapture.

Paul taught two. You see one.

Spiritual Israelite said:
Why are you trying to get around that? If Paul taught one rapture, which he did, then there's one rapture. The lack of respect for Paul's teachings that I see from some on this forum is appalling.

Paul taught two. You see one.

The Lord taught that He is coming in an hour that you think not. Do you not believe Him?

Spiritual Israelite said:
No, He brings their souls with Him when He descends from heaven the one time He does that in the future. You are absolutely butchering 1 Thess 4:14-17. That passage refers to one rapture where the souls of the dead in Christ come with Him from heaven and then what happens is that their bodies are resurrected first and then they, together with those who are alive and remain, are caught up to meet the Lord in the air. One rapture. Not two. You should not twist scripture like 1 Thess 4:14-17 beyond recognition just to keep your doctrine afloat.

The dead in Christ rise first. The alive remain.

Spiritual Israelite said:
Very easily. The ones gathered from heaven are obviously the souls of the dead in Christ. The ones gathered from earth are the resurrected bodies of the dead in Christ with those who are alive and remain. Very simple.

Well, those 24 elders in Revelation 4 prove that Jesus has come and His reward was with Him. And those kings and priests in Revelation 5 are the Church in heaven.

Spiritual Israelite said:
There is no gathering from heaven and earth before the day of the Lord. It happens on the day of the Lord as Paul shows in his teachings.

Amazing. You understand that Jesus comes at the 6th seal for the gathering from heaven and earth but that's end of your understanding. The great multitude is in heaven after this event and then the seventh seal is opened as the great multitude is at the marriage supper of the Lamb.

Spiritual Israelite said:
Right. The day of the Lord is the day of His coming and our being gathered to Him. The day of the one and only rapture in other words. Stop trying to make Paul say what you want him to say. He references Christ's coming and our being gathered to Him in 2 Thess 2:1 and then in the next verse he clarifies that no one should believe any claim that the day of His coming and our being gathered to Him, which he refferd to in that verse as "the day of the Lord" is at hand because certain things had to happen first such as the falling away and the man of sin being revealed.

The fig tree has two harvests. Jacob had two brides and one is the Chosen bride. One coming like the days of Noah and one coming like the days of Lot. One coming the Lord Himself comes and one coming He sends His angels. One coming at the trump of God or voice of God and one coming at the last trump blown on the feast of trumpets. One coming, the dead in Christ rise first, and the alive remain. And one coming the dead and alive are changed in the twinkling of an eye.

Some see. Some don't.

Spiritual Israelite said:
Wrong. You are blatantly contradicting what Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:3, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 and 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3. In each passage he has the rapture occurring on the day of the Lord which is the day of Christ's one and only future coming.

Jesus was clear. We can escape all the things that will come to pass and stand before the Son of man.

Spiritual Israelite said:
Of course. Why do you ask? While there are things that have to happen first before He comes, but that doesn't mean we can know the hour that He will come even if we think those things have happened. Paul didn't say how long after those things happen that Jesus would come. Jesus Himself said that we can know when His coming is near (Matt 24:32-33), but that doesn't mean we can know the day or hour of His coming.

That's why we watch as we have been instructed. Do you understand why we are to watch?

Revelation 3
3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

The Light · Mar 11, 2025

Spiritual Israelite said:
He comes with His bride and for His bride at that time. That's why Jesus talked about the elect being gathered both from heaven and on earth. The elect from heaven, which is the part of His bride in heaven, are the souls of the dead in Christ. You do believe that the souls of the dead in Christ are in heaven, don't you? I've asked you this a few times and it seems you never answer, which makes me wonder if you believe in soul sleep. Do you?

It seems your memory is not very good as you have asked this before and have been answered. So.................NO.

Those souls under the altar at the 5th seal are of the 12 tribes. The Church has already been raptured before the seals are opened.
The Lord himself comes for the dead in Christ. The alive remain. When He returns for the alive that remain, He brings the dead with Him. When He sends His angels to gather the elect at the 6th seal, it is the Church that is gathered from heaven and those of the 12 tribes that are gathered from the earth.

Spiritual Israelite said:
Anyway, the elect gathered from earth are His bride on earth.

Which bride?

Spiritual Israelite said:
Scripture says that Jesus will come from heaven in the manner He ascended there (Acts 1:9-11)

Exactly. Jesus returns in like manner at the end of wrath.
Zechariah 14
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

Spiritual Israelite said:
and that He will appear a second time unto salvation (Heb 9:28). There's no mention of this third coming of Jesus that you believe in anywhere.

That second statement is absolutely false and you have done nothing to back that up.

Wow. You always skip the details wanting to merge everything together. But the scripture says...........unto them THAT LOOK FOR HIM shall He appear a second time without sin UNTO SALVATION.

Hebrews 9
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Seems like you want to skip the qualifier. UNTO THEM THAT LOOK FOR HIM SHALL HE APPEAR A SECOND TIME.

Your statements are left wanting as usual. Backup provided.

It would be wise to watch as the time runs very, very short.

Davy · Mar 11, 2025

The Light said:
And this is an example of the blind telling the world what they see.

Not a valid response, since you made a personal attack, and did not provide any Bible evidence against my statement, which my statement is based on 2 Timothy 2:15 on rightly dividing The Word of God. Apparently, you are not familiar with how to do that in Bible Scripture.

The Light said:
How is it that you do not understand that the great tribulation is over at the 6th seal? THIS IS SIMPLE.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the
heavens shall be shaken:

I well understand the 6th Seal of Rev.6 has TWO parts, the first part about the future war in heaven per Rev.12:7 forward when Satan and his angels are kicked out of heaven, down to our earth (as "untimely figs" per Rev.6:13). And then the latter part is about the "day of the Lord" with Jesus' future coming, which is also showing that is the time of the final 7th Vial of God's cup of Wrath poured upon the wicked on the last day. That just so happens to also be the 'day' that Jesus gathers His Church, because that is the day in which the 'asleep' saints are resurrected, and then gathered by Jesus which He brings with Him, just as Paul said in 1 Thess.4:13-16. And this is what the Matthew 24:29-31 Scripture is showing.

So what that Matthew 24:29-31 Scripture is about (which you LEFT OUT THE 30-31 VERSES that go with it), is that is Christ's coming AFTER the "great tribulation" to gather His saints.

So let's not HIDE those other Matt.24 verses you FAILED to include in your quote:

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

The Light said:
You will be clueless until you understand that the tribulation is over at the 6th seal. God provides a roadmap to understand His word. The Bible explains the Bible.

You reveal that you... are the one who is clueless, because you apparently fail to recognize that the Matthew 24:29-31 Scripture happens ONLY AFTER the "great tribulation", which points to Jesus' coming to end it on the last day of this world, which is the SAME day of the Revelation 6:14-17 Scripture about the 6th Seal.

I can actually follow the Rev.6 SEALS with the SIGNS Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse of Matt.24, Mark 13, and Luke 21.

The Light said:
How is it that you do not understand that the end of the age occurs at the 6th seal?

Rev 15:2 is just another view of this verse.

You apparently cannot read, because I've already shown that I well understand the 6th SEAL (latter part of verses 14-17) is about the LAST DAY of this world when Jesus comes to gather His faithful Church and the 7th Vial of God's cup of wrath is poured out upon the wicked. That is also the day of God's "consuming fire" that Peter showed will burn man's works off this earth per 2 Peter 3:10, which Peter showed is the "day of the Lord". That is also the same day as the future resurrection of the 'asleep' saints that Jesus brings with Him when He comes.

The Rev.15:2-4 Scripture is a forward looking view in time for AFTER Christ having returned and the saints have already been gathered to Him, and with Him at God's Throne at the future new Jerusalem. The sea of glass symbol is a symbol involving the new Jerusalem of Rev.21.

The Light said:
Rev 7
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

How is it that you do not understand that they sing the song of Moses because they are Jews? This is a harvest that occurs at the 6th seal. It is a gathering from heaven and earth seen here.

Oh... NO! You just inserted RACISM within that Rev.7 Scripture! Who did you learn that from, or is that your own silly idea? You don't even know who the JEWS are, because you don't know your Old Testament history.

Of the 144,000 of Rev.7 that are of the children of Israel that are 'sealed' with God's seal, ONLY the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi represent the JEWS. All... the rest of that 144,000, which means the majority there, are represented by the ten lost tribes of Israel.

(The ten northern tribes of Israel were never known as JEWS, and that is per the Jewish historian Josephus who lived circa 100 A.D. Josephus said the title of 'Jew' is what those of the "house of Judah" that returned from their Babylon captivity called themselves, and the strangers returning with them did also (see Ezra 1 & 2). He said it is derived from the name of the tribe of Judah. The ten northern tribes had been long gone when the "house of Judah" southern kingdom only was left in the land, and then taken captive by king Nebuchadnezzar to Babylon. And then after their captivity, only a small remnant of Jews returned to Jerusalem to rebuild the city, walls and the 2nd temple. READ YOUR BIBLE HISTORY.)

Now starting at the Rev.7:9 verse, that "great multitude" "of all nations", are those 'sealed' with God's Seal of the believing Gentiles. And the VIEW John is shown there is FUTURE in the world to come, for AFTER Christ had gathered His saints, and they are at the new Jerusalem with Him before God's Throne.

These events are for the world to come with the new Jerusalem, NOT some false Pre-trib Rapture!

Rev 7:15-17
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple: and He That sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

17 For the Lamb Which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
KJV

Those "living waters" ONLY manifest AFTER Christ's return to this earth for His future "thousand years" reign of Rev.20. They are shown in Ezekiel 47 with the future millennium "sanctuary" that Jesus will build when He returns to reign over all nations. That is the timeline view of the above views John was shown about the "great multitude" of saved Gentiles.

Davy · Mar 11, 2025

The Light said:
Actually, most of those that believe in a pretribulation rapture do not understand that there are two raptures. The rapture of the Church occurs before the tribulation. This is the barley and wheat harvest. The second harvest is those that sing the song of Moses. They are Jews.

Nah... you are ADDING to God's Word, and those pre-trib rapture theory charlatans are who have taught you to ADD lies to Bible Scripture. And what's truly funny, is how you quoted Matt.24:29 in relation to the 6th Seal, which shows Jesus' coming to gather His Church on the FINAL DAY of this world! You destroy your credibility by your own deceptions coming out of both sides of your mouth! Read that Matt.24:29-31 Scripture again. It shows Jesus gathering His saints AFTER... the "great tribulation", NOT before it.

The Light said:
The fig tree has two harvests as seen here.

Hosea 9
10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

Man are you DECEIVED! That Hosea 9 Scripture is about how Israel had been playing the spiritual harlot against God! And that "Baalpeor" represented FALSENESS, the IDOL WORSHIP which they had succumbed to, and God destroyed those Baal worshippers from among Israel...

Deut 4:3
3 Your eyes have seen what the Lord did because of Baal–peor: for all the men that followed Baal–peor, the Lord thy God hath destroyed them from among you.
KJV

HOW IS IT THAT YOU FAIL TO RECOGNIZE THAT NAME 'BAAL'? That Baal worship is one of the major failings of the children of Israel per Old Testament history!!! And those charlatans of the devil that you listen to told you that is about the future gathering of the Church by Christ?%@!!

You certainly need help, FAST! I suggest you LEAVE whatever that beth-aven church you are going to.

rebuilder 454 · Mar 11, 2025

The Light said:
It is the Jewish main harvest AND the second coming. All eyes see the coming of the Lord at the 6th seal immediately after the tribulation of those days. And then the seventh seal is opened and the Day of the Lord, the wrath of God begins.

Exactly. Are you unable to see the signs of the sun, moon and stars in Matthew 24 and Revelation 6? Matthew 24 says immediately after the tribulation. The tribulation is when the Jews are hunted and killed. After the tribulation, the 7th seal is opened and the wrath of God begins.

Revelation 6
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Seen also here......
Revelation 14
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Tribulation is NOT wrath. I don't care how many preachers declare that the tribulation...... when the Jews are hunted down by Satan....is the same thing as God bringing His wrath against and unbelieving world. Use common sense.

No. Jesus is in heaven for the marriage supper in Revelation 15

Here are those that come out of great tribulation. They are in heaven.

Revelation 15
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

Here they are also in Revelation 7

Revelation 7
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

That should tell you that the harvest in Revelation 14 is the same harvest in Revelation 6 at the 6th seal.

Jesus does return at the end of Rev 16 which is the end of the 7th seal. The trumpets and vials of wrath are the 7th seal

Also Jesus is not on earth in Revelation 17 and 18

Nope.
You left off Rev 19, which changes all that you posted.
Rev 19 is AFTER the Jewish gathering and your ENTIRE TIMELINE.( after your strict misplacement of "wrath vs trib")
REV 19 is the second coming on white horses.
The white horse coming ENDS the wrath, and ends the AC.

rebuilder 454 · Mar 11, 2025

The Light said:
EXACTLY.

And Revelation 14:14 occurs at the 6th seal.

Let me repeat...........

How many times have I said....He remains in the clouds at the 6th seal? How many times have I shown Him in the clouds in Rev 14.

Nope.
The firstfruits are gathered to heaven, not to the clouds.

So you have a total inconsistent harvest.
You have firstfruits gathered to heaven, in rev 14 , then, main harvest of JEWS hovering in the clouds.
Then the total inconsistency of main "JEWISH ONLY MAIN harvest" of rev 14:14 being non Jews.
HUH?????
You have wheat gathered with grapes??????.

You can not explain rev 14: 14
...nor can you explain rev 19.

The parable of the wedding has the people gathered to the wedding.
You have gatherings to other places.
You need rev 14:14 changed and rev 19 changed.

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