There ain't much that is actually Biblical about your above chart.
That's why I won't waste my time with such a mess as your chart, because I already have The Word of God that reveals what the TRUE ORDER OF END TIME EVENTS will be.
Hal Lindsay And Time LaHaye Were Deceived
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There ain't much that is actually Biblical about your above chart.
That's why I won't waste my time with such a mess as your chart, because I already have The Word of God that reveals what the TRUE ORDER OF END TIME EVENTS will be.
tailgator
Well-Known Member
You would do well yourself to listen to Jesus for he said that he would call them which are the graves and they shall come forth.
John 5:28
27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
tailgator
Well-Known Member
But you don't pay attention to the word of God which reveals the true order of end time events.You even go so far as to deny the true order of end time events.
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
The Light
Well-Known Member
That verse is talking about gathering the previously raptured Church from heaven. The Church is seen in heaven in Revelation 5 prior to the opening of the 7 seals.
The alive will not precede the dead. That means the dead in Christ rise first.
What happens to the alive believers? They remain on earth when the dead in Christ rise. When He comes for the alive that remain, He will bring the dead in Christ with Him who were already raptured to heaven in the barley harvest.
The Church is gathered from heaven at the gathering from heaven and earth which occurs at the 6th seal. It is the 12 tribes across the earth that are gathered from the earth. They are the seed of the woman who have had their blindness removed when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. We are warned not to be ignorant of this.
Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Those gathered from the earth at the 6th seal are mostly of the 12 tribes of Israel. They are the seed of the woman......which are the 12 tribes that are all over the world. When the dragon can't get to the woman, Israel, he goes after her seed which are the 12 tribes across the earth.
Revelation 12
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
You seem to think that the 70th week of Daniel is about Gentiles. It about God regrafting the Jews back to the olive tree. They keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ after the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. God will keep His promise to His Chosen. Why do you think that there are 144,000 first fruits from the 12 tribes?
Daniel 9
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
The 70th week of Daniel is about the people of Daniel. You make it about Gentiles because you have no understanding.
I don't deny those scriptures. I deny that you understand them. Quite frankly you have no idea what you are talking about. You might study the Feasts of God, as they are a shadow of things to come. You are not acting wisely speaking against the truth of a rapture of the Church before the great tribulation.
You mean the event of Matthew 27:52 when Lord Jesus died on the cross, and the graves were opened and many bodies of the saints that slept arose?
Nah... that is NOT what the Matthew 24:31 verse is about. Or didn't you notice in Matthew 24:29 at the start of Christ's witness of that event, verse 31 happens AFTER... that tribulation, which is the "great tribulation", an event that is STILL future to us today.
I hope you are not pushing Biblically illiterate stuff just to try and trap me. Good luck with that, if that's what this is about.
That is correct, that's what Paul showed in the 1 Thess.4:13-16 Scripture, pointing to the time of the future resurrection. The asleep saints will be resurrected first on the day of Jesus' coming, and He will bring those with Him when He comes. The actual "caught up" event, what some call the rapture, is only about the saints still alive on earth being "changed" "at the twinkling of an eye", and gathered to Jesus on His descent to earth.
Only partially correct. There are none... that will be raptured to Heaven. Many do not understand the difference between flesh and Spirit. The asleep saints are already... in the heavenly dimension, present with The Lord, like Paul taught in 2 Corinthians 5. We each have a spirit body dwelling within our flesh, and it is not made of material matter. When our flesh body dies, it goes back to the earthly matter where it came from, but our spirit goes back to God. This is why Paul said to be absent from the body (i.e., flesh body) is to be present with The Lord. Have you never read the following...
1 Peter 4:5-6
5 Who shall give account to Him That is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
6 For, for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
KJV
Per the previous 1 Peter 3 chapter, Lord Jesus in His 'quickened' body went to the "spirits in prison" and preached The Gospel to them. That was prophecy in Isaiah 42:7 that Jesus would do that, and lead the prisoners out that pit prison house. So what the future resurrection event will be about these Scriptures point that it will involve something to do with the transition back to this earth to live in Christ's future Kingdom on earth.
Only the asleep saints that had died in Christ are gathered 'from heaven', meaning from the heavenly dimension, which is where they are right now as those 'spirits' of 1 Peter 4:6. And only a 'remnant' of the seed of Israel will be gathered by Christ back to the holy land, and that involves His Church, some who will have been deceived, and others representing the Zadok (the Just, Christ's very elect). That fullness of the Gentiles only will occur on the day of Christ's future return, the "day of the Lord".
I disagree, Christ's Church is made up of BOTH believing Israelites of the seed, and believing Gentiles. Those together will be gathered by Christ to the holy land when He comes to setup His Millennial Kingdom there. The Rev.12:7-17 events are for this present... world time, the "great tribulation" time, not after Christ's future return.
I also admonish you to do a deeper Bible study on the ten tribes of Israel, which God scattered out of the holy land first captive to Assyria, never to return, even as it still is to this day. A majority of those were scattered to the west, and became the western Christian nations. Signers of the Scottish Declaration of Independence in the 1300's mentioned their migrations from the old nation of Israel.
About Gentiles? No, I don't think that Daniel 9 prophecy is about Gentiles; don't know where you got that idea from. It's about Jerusalem and her people; that's what the Daniel 9 Scripture says.
What makes you think that Rev.12:17 verse about that latter "woman" is only about Israel? It's not, it's about Christ's Church of both believing Israelites and believing Gentiles, together as one body. Those events of Rev.12:7 forward happen to start the future "great tribulation" events, which is still future to us today. And those who have the Testimony of Jesus Christ is a reference to ALL Christians, not just Messianic Jews.
Well, you just told a LIE.
I do NOT make the 70th week events to be about Gentiles.
That 70th week of Daniel is about events that occur ONLY during the coming "great tribulation" involving the JEWS building their 3rd temple for the coming false-Messiah to sit in, and proclaim himself as Christ. That's about the area of JERUSALEM, not anywhere else.
It's the other way around; it is YOU... that fail to understand Bible Scripture, because if you did, you would never fall apostate to man's FALSE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE THEORY. Didn't you know that theory only began to be preached in a Christian Church in 1830's Great Britain by John Nelson Darby, and that the Christian Church for 1830 years prior held to Christ's coming to gather His Church AFTER... the tribulation??
So what are you, scared to face the coming "great tribulation" for Christ's sake, to give His Testimony against the beast?? That's what Paul was talking about with his admonishing us to put on the Whole Armor of God so as to be able to stand in the "evil day" (Ephesians 6). So are you a COWARD, not willing to make that stand for our Lord Jesus Christ??
The Light
Well-Known Member
No. I talking about those that will be raptured in the Church.
The gathering from heaven and earth occurs immediately after the tribulation of those days......the great tribulation. The Church is gathered from heaven and the 12 tribes that have become believers after the fullness of the Gentiles comes in are gathered from the earth.
No. I'm pushing the truth to someone that is Biblically illiterate. You take half the Word of God and form an incorrect conclusion.
Jesus does not return to the earth at the rapture of the Church. The Lord Himself comes for His bride to take His bride to His fathers house.
Only those that are raptured will see and hear Him.
The Church will be raptured to heaven before the tribulation which is before the seals are opened. The bridegroom will come for His bride and take her to His Fathers house.
Those that are gathered from heaven have NEW bodies. They are the Church who received new bodies at the rapture of the Church before the tribulation. When the Lord comes for the gathering immediately after the tribulation of those days, the Church is gathered from heaven and the twelve tribes across the earth are gathered from the earth.
All return to heaven for the marriage supper and are the great multitude that is in heaven during the Day of the Lord.......the one year day of wrath.
Hmmm.
The woman Israel flees to a place of protection. When the dragon can't get to the woman he goes after her seed which is the 12 tribes across the earth............the Jews around the world. The Church is already in heaven when this occurs.
Not correct. The Gentile Church is raptured before the tribulation. When Christ comes at the second coming which is at the 6th seal, He remains in the clouds and sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth. The Day of the Lord is the 7th seal, the one-year day of His wrath.
The Light
Well-Known Member
And yet the rapture of the Church will be mostly Gentiles. Then part of Israel will have its blindness removed.
Matthew 24
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
The Elect that are gathered from heaven and earth ARE NOT gathered to the Holy Land to set up the millennial kingdom. They are gathered and go to heaven for the marriage supper during the one-year wrath of God.
Totally incorrect. The events of Revelation 12 occur during the great tribulation and are not currently occurring.
I think you realize that God kept a people unto Himself. Most of the scattered of Israel know their heritage. If they don't know their heritage, God certainly knows.
I am not saying that you think that Daniel 9 is about Gentiles. I'm saying that you think that the tribulation is about Gentiles. The great tribulation is about the regrafting of the 12 tribes across the earth. The believing Gentiles will already be in heaven before the tribulation occurs.........hence, the pretribulation rapture.
The great tribulation is about the Jews. God is going to regraft some of them after the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. The Church will be in heaven before the great tribulation.
You don't seem to realize that the 70th week of Daniel is about the people of Daniel. You seem to think that the Church will be going through the tribulation. So I am not lying.
The seed of the woman, Israel, is the 12 tribes across the earth, which is the Jews around the world. God is going to regraft them into the olive tree.
Hmmm, John Nelson Darby proclaimed that the nation of Israel would be reborn again. I think He was right. And He got that from reading the Bible. How much easier it is for us that have seen Israel reborn as a nation.
On the other hand, there are unbelieving men that did not believe that God would keep His promise to Israel and thought that they had replaced Israel. Of course, there was not an Israel for long past a thousand years, so they drew quite a following.
Looking back, who was right..........Darby who said Israel would be reborn after some 1700 plus years or those who thought they had replaced Israel.
FYI. I believed that the rapture of the Church would occur at the 6th seal........immediately after the tribulation. It wasn't until I realized that the fig tree had two harvests that I understood who would be harvested at the 6th seal.
Am I afraid to face the coming tribulation? No. What I would be afraid of is not understanding that there will be a pretribulation rapture, and telling others that they are following Satan for believing such things.
I highly recommend that you study the Feasts of God that are a shadow of what is to come. There's not much time left. You need to find the truth and let it be known that you have been mistaken.
Davy, you are not being specific about what you disagree with what was shown on my chart.
Present a timeline chart of your own, so everyone can see your understanding to the end time events.
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Read your Bible, the so-called 'rapture' (I prefer "caught up" per the KJV) is about Christ's gathering of the saints still alive... on earth at His 2nd coming, and is timed with the resurrection on the last day of this world. 1 Thessalonians 4:16 is declaring the 'asleep' saints must be resurrected first in order for Jesus to bring those asleep saints with Him, like Apostle Paul says.
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rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
The second coming is the white horse's in Rev 19.
How could anyone possibly miss it.
....and the setting FOR THE RAPTURE is TOTALLY OPPOSITE of your doctrine.
IOW....A COMPLETE 14K IMPOSSIBILITY.
The Light
Well-Known Member
This part is not true.
The second coming occurs at the 6th seal. All eyes see the coming the Lord. He remains in the clouds and sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth. The second coming is also seen in Revelation 14. It is the harvest before the wrath of God. The wrath of God is the 7th seal. Believers are not appointed to wrath, hence, a harvest before the wrath of God.
Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
The Light
Well-Known Member
Really? You might read your Bible. Here the dead and alive are changed in the twinkling of an eye. This event occurs at the 6th seal at the Last Trump, blown on the Feast of Trumpets. It will be like the days of Lot. The Lord will send His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth. Those gathered from heaven are the Church. Those gathered from the earth will be mostly of the 12 tribes of Israel. That is why there are 144,000 first fruits from the 12 tribes. Each man in His order. Christ the first fruits and then they that are Christs at His coming.
1 Corinthians 15
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
This is the rapture of the Church. Here the dead are changed first at the trump of God or voice of God. The alive remain. It will be like the days of Noah. The Lord Himself will come for His bride the Church. First, He comes for the barley harvest, those that are dead in Christ and then returns for the wheat harvest, the alive remained.
1 Thessalonians 4
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
I already well know what all Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 15 about ALL... being "changed" to the "spiritual body" at the sound of that "last trump" (the 7th Trumpet of Rev.11).
But you clearly show you DO NOT understand even what you posted above from 1 Thess.4. Read it again...
1 Thess 4:15-16
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
The Greek word for that KJV translation "prevent" actually means 'to precede' per the Greek (NT:5348). Paul is simply saying those of us still alive on earth shall not go before the 'asleep' saints do.
16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
KJV
That "and the dead in Christ shall rise first" is about the future time of the resurrection. WHEN did Jesus show that resurrection will happen??
John 6:40
40 And this is the will of Him That sent Me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on Him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
KJV
John 6:44
44 No man can come to Me, except the Father Which hath sent Me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
KJV
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
You have said before that you believe Revelation 19:11-21 is the same event as Matthew 24:30-31. But, there is no mention of the angels gathering the elect in Revelation 19:11-21. So, does that mean you are wrong that those two passages are about the same event since one passage has details that the other doesn't?
What I said is that Revelation 19:11-21 (Jesus's return) corresponds to Jesus's return in -Matthew 24:30-11.
No, it does not mean I am wrong about Jesus's return takes place in Revelation 19:11-21 and in Matthew 24:30-21.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Doug, why are you unable to see the point I'm making there? Actually, I am certain you are able to see the point, but you're either not acknowledging it or you're not even trying to see it. I am clearly not trying to claim that you are wrong about Revelation 19:11-21 and Matthew 24:30-31 each corresponding to Jesus's return since I believe that they both correspond to His return myself (which you should already know). So, I'm obviously not going to claim that you are wrong about something that I also believe.
My point here is that the type of reasoning you are using to conclude that 1 Thess 4:14-18 and Matthew 24:30-31 are not the same event could also be used to conclude that Matthew 24:30-31 and Revelation 19:11-21 are not referring to the same event (Jesus's return). Which then means the type of reasoning you are using is flawed. That is my point.
In case you're still somehow not getting the point, I'll spell it out even further. You are concluding that 1 Thess 4:14-18 and Matthew 24:30-31 are not the same event because Matthew 24:30-31 doesn't specifically mention a resurrection while 1 Thess 4:14-18 does, right? So, your reasoning is that since both passages don't contain all the same details, they can't be referring to the same event. So, using that type of logic, can someone conclude that Revelation 19:11-21 and Matthew 24:30-31 are not the same event since Revelation 19:11-21 makes no mention of the angels gathering the elect? I would assume your answer would be "no" to that question, so why would you think that type of reasoning can be used to conclude that 1 Thess 4:14-18 and Matthew 24:30-31 are not referring to the same event?
Matthew 24:31, the gathering the elect, is not the resurrection/rapture event of 1Thessalonians4:14-18.... is also because no one is changed in Matthew 24:31 into incorruptible eternal bodies.
Here are the three resurrections of the dead to take place... and when....
1. the resurrection/rapture event - before the great tribulation begins. Taken to heaven, to return with Jesus.
1Thessalonians4:14-18, 1Thessalonians5:9-11
2. the resurrection of the martyred great tribulation saints - right after the great tribulation, and Jesus has returned.
Revelation 20:4-6
3. the resurrection of the last day - for the Great White Throne Judgment.
Revelation 20:11-15
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
Jewish only harvest in Rev 14:14.
Rev 14:1 is JEWISH firstfruits.
14:14 is JEWISH main harvest
Study harvest.
Firstfruits ALWAYS precedes main harvest.
( Jewish first fruits with a jewish main harvest)
Rev19 is the second coming on white horses with no gathering except the elect gathered in heaven for thecwhite horse coming back to earth.
(AFTER TRIB WRATH or whatever you want it to be.)
IOW, there is no coming to earth in Rev 14:14.
No white horses, no warring king, and no sword in his hand....in fact he sits on a cloud.
In Rev 19 it is beyond obvious that it is the second coming to destroy the ac.
...on a horse, in a warrior setting, with a sword, with saints already in heaven.and after the marriage supper in heaven.
The Light
Well-Known Member
Don't need to study the harvest, I already know this. Those that have gotten victory over the beast are seen in Revelation 14 singing the song of Moses.........they are Jews.
Exactly.....which is why I don't understand why you don't think there are two raptures if you are pretrib. That confuses me.
Revelation 19 the coming on white horses is not the second coming. The second Coming occurs at the 6th seal.........immediately after the tribulation of those days.........the great tribulation. The second coming is the harvest seen in Revelation 14 which occurs at the 6th prior to wrath.
Revelation 6
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Revelation 14
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
Revelation 19 occurs toward the end of the wrath God when the armies of heaven return for Armageddon.
The Great Tribulation is the 5th seal.
The Coming of Jesus for the harvest (Rev 14) is the 6th seal
The wrath of God.....Day of the Lord.....is the 7th seal.
EXACTLY. Jesus remains in the clouds. He sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth at the 6th seal which is the coming of Jesus in Revelation 14. Which is also seen here
Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
It is the second coming.........ALL EYES SEE THE COMING OF THE LORD.
But he remains in the clouds and all return to heaven for the marriage supper during the one-year wrath of God.
The second coming is at the 6th seal. Jesus remains in the clouds. It is a harvest. All return to heaven for the marriage supper. They are the great multitude seen in heaven in Revelation 7.
Revelation 19 is when the armies of heaven come for Armageddon. After the victory Jesus will set His feet on the mount of Olives......the second advent.
Right AFTER the MARRIAGE SUPPER. The armies of heaven come for Armageddon.
The great multitude get to heaven for the marriage supper when Jesus sends His angels to gather the elect seen here.
Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
The event of Jesus coming for the harvest occurs at the 6th seal seen here............which is immediately after the tribulation of those days.......the great tribulation.
Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
This the gathering from heaven and earth which is also seen in Revelation 14. It is the Jews that are gathered from the earth..........the Church is gathered from heaven. All return to heaven for the marriage supper. It is the Jews that come out of great tribulation. The Church is raptured BEFORE the tribulation.
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