Hal Lindsay And Time LaHaye Were Deceived

gpresdo · Feb 22, 2025

Davy said:
If you've read popular books written by the Pre-trib Rapture theory authors like Hal Lindsay and Tim LaHaye, then you're probably familiar with all the chaos and war and famine, and destruction, etc., that they teach the coming "great tribulation" is going to be like.

But did you not know that God's Word instead reveals the future time of "great tribulation" is going to be a time of WORLD PEACE? (that is, for the deceived it will be).

Tim LaHaye wrote a Left-Behind books series, something like 13 books, which were used to make movies with also. And it's all about the sudden disappearance of the Church, while everyone else is left behind, and wondering what happened to those raptured folks!

Did you even know that some airline companies have a policy for their pilots, that if one pilot is a Christian, then the other pilot must not be? That's in case of the rapture while in flight, there will still be someone left-behind to fly the airplane, they think! Crazy! Oh but I'm sure Lindsay and LaHaye loved that idea.

Those of us in Christ Jesus who actually do... listen to Him in HIS Word, don't have to worry about any of those 'scare' tactics pushed by those on man's false pre-trib rapture theory. That because there are no such rapture ideas written of PRIOR to the "great tribulation". Instead Lord Jesus revealed His coming to gather His Church will be AFTER... the "great tribulation", not before it (Matthew 24:29-31; Mark 13:24-27). Apostle Paul taught the same timing of Christ's future coming and His gathering His Church, to be after that "man of sin" of 2 Thessalonians 2 is revealed, with Jesus destroying him with the brightness of His coming.

In our Lord Jesus' Olivet discourse, while He was upon the Mount of Olives with His disciples, He revealed events like nation against nation, war, famines, pestilences, earthquakes, etc., and then He said those things were "the beginning of sorrows" (Matthew 24:6-8). But He did not say those things will be for the time of "great tribulation".

I know, I know, just the phrase "great tribulation" sounds like that time of "the beginning of sorrows" ought to be the "great tribulation", but it is not what defines what the coming "great tribulation" will be like. It will be a time of great tests upon the Church, I'm not denying that.

But Lord Jesus gave us a clue in the following, revealing a tidbit of what 'kind'... of time the "great tribulation" will actually be...

Matt 24:6
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
KJV

How many times have you heard pre-trib rapture preaches quote the above verse in blue, but leave out that last phrase in red? What's that phrase in red about?

I can't remember in English grammar what it's called, but that last phrase in red above is the OPPOSITE IDEA of that "wars and rumors of wars". That means ALL... wars will have stopped, and instead it means a time of WORLD PEACE.

I fear you are cojoining pre trib warnings with trib environment conditions.

tailgator · Feb 22, 2025

Douggg said:
Of course not. I believe that you have misunderstood the timing of the rapture/resurrection event though.

Paul says the dead in Christ rise first when Christ comes and the trumpet sounds.
Christ comes In Mathew 24.

Mathew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Jesus says he comes after the tribulation and you say he comes before the tribulation.
Which of you should I believe?
You or Jesus?

tailgator · Feb 22, 2025

gpresdo said:
I fear you are cojoining pre trib warnings with trib environment conditions.

Jesus said he will come after the tribulation and you say he comes before the tribulation.
Who do you think I should believe,you or Jesus?

tailgator · Feb 22, 2025

Douggg said:
The dead in Christ who have died in the past will be resurrected in rapture/resurrection event, and taken to heaven in their redeemed bodies.... while the great tribulation takes place here on earth. That event will take place before the Antichrist goes into the temple, sits, claims to have achieved God-hood.

View attachment 58842

You say Jesus comes before the tribulation and raises the dead
Jesus says he comes after the tribulation.

Which one of you is telling the truth Doug,?
You or Jesus?

Mathew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Douggg · Feb 22, 2025

tailgator said:
You say Jesus comes before the tribulation and raises the dead
Jesus says he comes after the tribulation.

Which one of you is telling the truth Doug,?
You or Jesus?

Jesus, not you.

Jesus comes from heaven for the rapture/resurrection event before the Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation act of 2Thessalonians2:4. Jesus at the rapture/resurrection event never touches down on earth, but takes the raptured/resurrected in Christ to heaven - while the great tribulation takes place here on earth.

During that time in heaven, the raptured/resurrected in Christ will stand before the bema seat of Christ and receive rewards for the things done for the cause of Christ during our life while in our earthly bodies.

At the end of the great tribulation, Jesus returns with the bride of Christ, dressed in white linen, in Revelation 19:7-8 to take part in the marriage supper of the Lamb in Revelation 19:9.

The marriage supper of the Lamb is a metaphorical term for what will be the feast on the bodies the kings of the earth and their armies described in Revelation 19:17-18 and Revelation 19:21.

Revelation 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

tailgator · Feb 22, 2025

Douggg said:
Jesus, not you.

Jesus comes from heaven for the rapture/resurrection event before the Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation act of 2Thessalonians2:4. Jesus at the rapture/resurrection event never touches down on earth, but takes the raptured/resurrected in Christ to heaven - while the great tribulation takes place here on earth.

During that time in heaven, the raptured/resurrected in Christ will stand before the bema seat of Christ and receive rewards for the things done for the cause of Christ during our life while in our earthly bodies.

At the end of the great tribulation, Jesus returns with the bride of Christ, dressed in white linen, in Revelation 19:7-8 to take part in the marriage supper of the Lamb in Revelation 19:9.

The marriage supper of the Lamb is a metaphorical term for what will be the feast on the bodies the kings of the earth and their armies described in Revelation 19:17-18 and Revelation 19:21.

Revelation 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

I agree with Jesus .You are the one who says he is wrong.

Jesus openly preaches that he will come after the tribulation and gather his elect.

Mathew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

You must live in fear of the beast that kills Jesus followers.But you need not worry because you don't follow the lamb.

Douggg · Feb 22, 2025

tailgator said:
I agree with Jesus .You are the one who says he is wrong.

Jesus openly preaches that he will come after the tribulation and gather his elect.

No, it is you who is saying Jesus is wrong. The gathering in Matthew 24:31 is the gathering of the Jews living at the time in nations around the world to Israel. It is not a resurrection of the dead in Matthew 24:31, nor the translation of the living.

And you have yet to acknowledge that the nation of Israel over there is no longer two nations of north and south. That part of Ezekiel 37 has been fulfilled.

tailgator · Feb 22, 2025

Douggg said:
No, it is you who is saying Jesus is wrong. The gathering in Matthew 24:31 is the gathering of the Jews living at the time in nations around the world to Israel. It is not a resurrection of the dead in Matthew 24:31, nor the translation of the living.

And you have yet to acknowledge that the nation of Israel over there is no longer two nations of north and south. That part of Ezekiel 37 has been fulfilled.

So you believe the followers of Jesus who are killed for their testimony of Jesus and reign with Jesus are not his elect.

You say the people who follow the lamb are not Jesus elect and the people who curse him and reject him are his elect.

What kind of a Christian are you ?

tailgator · Feb 22, 2025

Douggg said:
No, it is you who is saying Jesus is wrong. The gathering in Matthew 24:31 is the gathering of the Jews living at the time in nations around the world to Israel. It is not a resurrection of the dead in Matthew 24:31, nor the translation of the living.

And you have yet to acknowledge that the nation of Israel over there is no longer two nations of north and south. That part of Ezekiel 37 has been fulfilled.

Here Jesus tells his elect how they will be persecuted and killed but you say Jesus followers are not persecuted or harmed at all .

Mathew 10
19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.

20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

21 And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.

22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come

tailgator · Feb 22, 2025

Douggg said:
No, it is you who is saying Jesus is wrong. The gathering in Matthew 24:31 is the gathering of the Jews living at the time in nations around the world to Israel. It is not a resurrection of the dead in Matthew 24:31, nor the translation of the living.

And you have yet to acknowledge that the nation of Israel over there is no longer two nations of north and south. That part of Ezekiel 37 has been fulfilled.

So you believe if I was a Jew and reject Jesus as most Jews do then Im the elect.

But if I was a follower of Jesus and was killed for preaching the gospel and testifying of him ,I wouldn't be .

This sure is a strange new gospel you preach.
This gospel is not found in scripture

Douggg · Feb 22, 2025

tailgator said:
So you believe the followers of Jesus who are killed for their testimony of Jesus and reign with Jesus are not his elect.

The specific elect in Matthew 24:31 is referring to the Jews.

tailgator said:
You say the people who follow the lamb are not Jesus elect and the people who curse him and reject him are his elect.

The Jews en-masse will turn to Jesus in the middle of the seven years in Revelation 12:10.

Revelation 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Douggg · Feb 22, 2025

@tailgator

And you have yet to acknowledge that the nation of Israel over there is no longer two nations of north and south. That part of Ezekiel 37 has been fulfilled.

Can you acknowledge that ?

tailgator · Feb 22, 2025

Douggg said:
@tailgator

And you have yet to acknowledge that the nation of Israel over there is no longer two nations of north and south. That part of Ezekiel 37 has been fulfilled.

Can you acknowledge that ?

You talking about the people who followed the beast and worship the beast and reject Jesus and curse him?

Yea ,they have followed the beast.
I acknowledged that about 20 years ago.
Tell me something new

tailgator · Feb 22, 2025

Douggg said:
The specific elect in Matthew 24:31 is referring to the Jews.

The Jews en-masse will turn to Jesus in the middle of the seven years in Revelation 12:10.

Revelation 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

The Jews in mass will be destroyed while the 144000 are receiving the mark of God in their foreheads by the man in linen.

Ezekiel 9
9 He cried also in mine ears with a loud voice, saying, Cause them that have charge over the city to draw near, even every man with his destroying weapon in his hand.

2 And, behold, six men came from the way of the higher gate, which lieth toward the north, and every man a slaughter weapon in his hand; and one man among them was clothed with linen, with a writer's inkhorn by his side: and they went in, and stood beside the brasen altar.

3 And the glory of the God of Israel was gone up from the cherub, whereupon he was, to the threshold of the house. And he called to the man clothed with linen, which had the writer's inkhorn by his side;

4 And the Lord said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.

5 And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity:

6 Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house.

7 And he said unto them, Defile the house, and fill the courts with the slain: go ye forth. And they went forth, and slew in the city.

8 And it came to pass, while they were slaying them, and I was left, that I fell upon my face, and cried, and said, Ah Lord God! wilt thou destroy all the residue of Israel in thy pouring out of thy fury upon Jerusalem?

9 Then said he unto me, The iniquity of the house of Israel and Judah is exceeding great, and the land is full of blood, and the city full of perverseness: for they say, The Lord hath forsaken the earth, and the Lord seeth not.

10 And as for me also, mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity, but I will recompense their way upon their head.

11 And, behold, the man clothed with linen, which had the inkhorn by his side, reported the matter, saying, I have done as thou hast commanded me.

Douggg · Feb 22, 2025

tailgator said:
You talking about the people who followed the beast and worship the beast and reject Jesus and curse him?

Yea ,they have followed the beast.
I acknowledged that about 20 years ago.
Tell me something new

You did not address the question.

And you have yet to acknowledge that the nation of Israel over there is no longer two nations of north and south. That part of Ezekiel 37 has been fulfilled.

Can you acknowledge that ?

tailgator · Feb 22, 2025

Douggg said:
You did not address the question.

And you have yet to acknowledge that the nation of Israel over there is no longer two nations of north and south. That part of Ezekiel 37 has been fulfilled.

Can you acknowledge that ?

Let's see what Ezekiel 37 says shall we.

Ezekiel 37

23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.

24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.

25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.

If you insist that the people who reject Christ and sin daily are not defiled.The gays and lesbians.The murderers and thieves.The idol worshipers and the Jewish rabis who reject Jesus are all sinless ,then that's your belief.

I think I will just agree with Ezekiel 9 that both Judeh and Israel will be destroyed.All of them except the ones Jesus marks in their foreheads.

Douggg · Feb 22, 2025

tailgator said:
Let's see what Ezekiel 37 says shall we.

Ezekiel 37

23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.

24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.

25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.

If you insist that the people who reject Christ and sin daily are not defiled.The gays and lesbians.The murderers and thieves.The idol worshipers and the Jewish rabis who reject Jesus are all sinless ,then that's your belief.

I think I will just agree with Ezekiel 9 that both Judeh and Israel will be destroyed.All of them except the ones Jesus marks in their foreheads.

You are skipping Ezekiel 37:15-22. Address those verses. And is not Israel over there one nation - and not two nations of north and south ?

tailgator · Feb 22, 2025

Douggg said:
You are skipping Ezekiel 37:15-22. Address those verses. And is not Israel over there one nation - and not two nations of north and south ?

I quoted where Judah and Israel sin and both destroyed.

That's what happens to the Jews who worship the beast.There are only 144000 who recieve the mark of God in their foreheads.The rest are destroyed.

tailgator · Feb 22, 2025

Douggg said:
You are skipping Ezekiel 37:15-22. Address those verses. And is not Israel over there one nation - and not two nations of north and south ?

Tell me Doug
How many kingdoms do you see in this verse?

Revelation 20
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

You actually believe that is two kingdoms?

tailgator · Feb 22, 2025

Douggg said:
You are skipping Ezekiel 37:15-22. Address those verses. And is not Israel over there one nation - and not two nations of north and south ?

Ohhh,I see what your saying now
You believe Benjamin netanyahu is the Messiah?

Is that what your saying Doug?
One king ,one kingdom

Ezekiel 37:
23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.

24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.

25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.

Hal Lindsay And Time LaHaye Were Deceived

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