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GodsGrace

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To learn the official teachings of the Governing Body of the worldwide community of Jehovah's Witnesses, you can access the official website where only they publish Bible studies and current topics related to the Bible. No one else can publish there, and no Witness in the world can speculate on things they imagine when interpreting the Bible in a personal way.
Just saw this Elie12

The above is known to all who have studied the Witnesses for any amount of time.

The Catholic Church does the same.
One must believe everything the CC teaches in order to be defined as Catholic.
You should have been a Catholic...at least THAT church goes back to the beginning...
unlike the JW's that got started in the 1800's...quite a ways from when Jesus walked the earth
and taught the Apostles what THEY should teach OTHERS.

Don't you trust the Apostles and those they taught MORE than Russell?
After learning from the Governing Body, we make sure to go to the Bible quotes and study them carefully,
Right.
You BRING TO SCRIPTURE what you already know and read into scripture.
This is called eisegesis and is NOT a correct method of studying scripture.

You go there with predetermined ideas and read these ideas into every passage.

to realize if the teaching we receive comes from the Scriptures; this is always the case, at least as far as I am concerned. The Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses takes very seriously that their teachings are based on the Bible,
Yes. I hear this from my 2 JW friends ALL THE TIME, ad nauseum:
WE FOLLOW ONLY THE BIBLE.

Right. And what do they think the rest of Christianity is following?
Ummmmm. THE BIBLE?!
and they have a lot of experience in studying deep Bible topics in order to understand them correctly. Of course, as is evident, for this they pray to God for his holy spirit and study in depth all the edges of each issue through the Bible.
You want to see deep?
Use the New Advent Encyclopedia.
Check out a topic...
and then come back and report what it stated.
Now THAT is deep study.
I appreciate your opinion on what the witnesses study, but this issue here is not about deciding which group is closer to what true Christianity has to teach and practice. This topic is about people who independently try to spread their own private interpretations as if it were God who is privately telling them what they should tell others.
Voila! You've just defined Russell and the Witnesses.

You want to know what group is closer to what the Apostles taught?
The Catholic Church is the closest.
You should joint the Catholic Church.

BTW, I'm not Catholic.
I just know church history.

Do you believe that God calls independent people, or does He already have a group that He leads while teaching the biblical truths?
Catholic Church !
It is a very serious matter, because if the truth were spread in each individual who believes that God shows him the way in a particular way, people will never find the truth in the midst of such a chaotic mass of hundreds of thousands of people who are independent and contradict each other so much. God could not be directing a divided work in that way; the holy spirit does not go against unity.
Well, to start Jesus is God.
The witnesses believe He's the Son in some way or other.
So, actually, this makes them NOT CHRISTIAN.

But I see you have CHRISTIAN written under your avatar.
So what makes you think you're Christian when that would require that you believe Jesus is GOD?
 
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GodsGrace

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Much agreed Fran,
I think it takes time to tests the fruit of others over a period of time. If consistent in their behavior long enough, then I'm apt to give them a chance. Other than that, not sure we even can know who has the Truth.
Been studying the Early Church Fathers Nancy.
They learned from the Apostles so I tend to trust them.
It's a shame the CC changed over time.
It could have been the perfect church.
Well, almost perfect - nothing in man is perfect.
 
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GodsGrace

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Mmmm. If Paul was inspired by the same holy Spirit as the prophets and the Son of God, then yes, Paul and Jesus spoke/ wrote with the same authority.
When Jesus quoted David, or Moses, did those words suddenly have more authority than when they were first penned?
I would suggest that when we speak the word of God in faith and in His name, that word has the same authority as if God Himself were speaking it.

“7 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 8 Take the rod, and gather thou the assembly together, thou, and Aaron thy brother, and speak ye unto the rock before their eyes; and it shall give forth his water, and thou shalt bring forth to them water out of the rock: so thou shalt give the congregation and their beasts drink. 9 And Moses took the rod from before the LORD, as he commanded him. 10 And Moses and Aaron gathered the congregation together before the rock, and he said unto them, Hear now, ye rebels; must we fetch you water out of this rock? 11 And Moses lifted up his hand, and with his rod he smote the rock twice: and the water came out abundantly, and the congregation drank, and their beasts also. 12 And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron, Because ye believed me not, to sanctify me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore ye shall not bring this congregation into the land which I have given them. ”
Numbers 20:7-12 KJV

Read the story of Balaam and Balak. Whose authority was exercised when Balaam spoke to Israel?
Brakelite
Every now and then I come across really silly statements.
I didn't finish reading your post...I stopped at this:
PAUL/JESUS SPOKE WITH THE SAME AUTHORITY.

That's quite a statement there Brakelite.
So Jesus....who came directly from the Father and is GOD HIMSELF...
has the same authority as a man that Jesus had to stop and speak some stuff to.

That's like saying that an engineer that works for Elon....
has the same authority in Spacex as Elon.

OK.
 

GodsGrace

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Without the Holy Spirit you cannot understand scripture. In the first century they had, not only the Apostles, but all of the original followers of Jesus as well as all those at Pentecost, who were taught by the Apostles. The Apostle Paul took 3 missionary trips teaching and preaching. Many were taught by the Apostle Paul, and he placed elders in all churches. By the last half to the first century, all 4 gospels and Paul's letters were had by all churches. In 144 ad., Marion created the first bible that forced the traditional churches to canonize their own bible. The Word of God has been pretty straight and constant ever since. When there is no Holy Spirit, there is no understanding.
So how come we don't all agree on everything and we all claim to have the Holy Spirt?

Plus you have your history all messed up, but I'm not getting into that.

You might want to go back and study some more.
 

GodsGrace

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Exaggerations.

It seems that YOU do not like to follow the instructions of the holy spirit that we received through the anointed ones of the first century.
Ellie
Let me ASSURE YOU that you are NOT following the teachings of the early Christians.
 

GodsGrace

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But people act as if Paul had just as much authority as Jesus.
This statement is correct and someone on this very thread has stated the same.
I replied up above.
It's very silly to make such statements ---- to say the least.
 

Rockerduck

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So how come we don't all agree on everything and we all claim to have the Holy Spirt?

Plus you have your history all messed up, but I'm not getting into that.

You might want to go back and study some more.
You might go back and study some more, I already have my degree.
 
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Brakelite

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Brakelite
Every now and then I come across really silly statements.
I didn't finish reading your post...I stopped at this:
PAUL/JESUS SPOKE WITH THE SAME AUTHORITY.

That's quite a statement there Brakelite.
So Jesus....who came directly from the Father and is GOD HIMSELF...
has the same authority as a man that Jesus had to stop and speak some stuff to.

That's like saying that an engineer that works for Elon....
has the same authority in Spacex as Elon.

OK.
Remember, the context of this discussion is the word of God. We aren't talking about hierarchical authority such as the Father being the Boss, Jesus as the Son in subjection to Him, and the church in subjection to Jesus. Yes, that is the order of rank, but that isn't the context of what we are discussing. It's the authority that is invested in scripture. Scripture, inspired by the Spirit of Christ, whether written by Paul, Stephen, or even Balaam, or spoken by Christ Himself, is the word of God and has the same authority, and the same source.
 

LoveYeshua

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Exaggerations.

It seems that YOU do not like to follow the instructions of the holy spirit that we received through the anointed ones of the first century.
No it is not an exaggeration many do put Paul above Jesus, what he said what he asked usto do. They are easy to spot too they only quote verses from paul, they also think the commandments are no longer necessary, void and nul, this is not that Jesus said, he was teaching the commandments and magnified them, it was the will of GOD, he preached repentance and the kingdom of heaven, many have forgotten this.
 
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Hey You!

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Been studying the Early Church Fathers Nancy.
They learned from the Apostles so I tend to trust them.
It's a shame the CC changed over time.
It could have been the perfect church.
Well, almost perfect - nothing in man is perfect.
Grafting ~ by ReverendRV * May 6

Romans 11:24 KJV; For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

I was having a discussion with a group about how Roman Catholics and Evangelicals present the Gospel of Jesus Christ; what’s the difference? One Catholic offered the conclusion of the Council of Orange from A.D. 529 as their view of the Gospel. Since I don’t have the space to reproduce it here, it was similar to the Good News of the Evangelical Gospel. I responded by saying that the Protestants agree with much of what the Councils of the early Church stated; but the differences come up because of the later Councils. A Lutheran spoke up and said that if this is the Roman Catholic Gospel, then they owe an apology to the Reformer Martin Luther for Excommunicating him for believing the Gospel that the Church used to profess. ~ This gave me cause to think of our topic verse. It is a symbol of the difference between the people of God, the Jews; and the people of God, the Church. The Horticultural practice of grafting in branches from one tree into another tree is used as a symbol of Gods ‘Favor’ for his people over time. First it was Israel and when they Fell, God favored the Gentiles. ~ But you ask, “What does this have to do with now?”

Something similar has happened in modern times. The early Church had the Gospel but there came a time another branch was grafted into it by the Religion of men. These Horticulturalists trained the Gospel tree’s shape by twisting it in such a way that this added branch now seemed to be the tree’s trunk, and the true trunk appeared to be the spurious branch. You ask, “Why is this new branch a problem?” Because the branch they added is from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil; and the tree that it was added to is the Tree of Life! The Bible teaches us these two trees were in the Garden of Eden, and that the Tree Adam and Eve ate from first would control their destiny. The Tree of Knowledge bore fruit that killed them when they ate it; this Tree is symbolic of the Ten Commandments. God intended the Ten Commandments to be used to show people they are Sinners; have you ever Trespassed and picked an apple from someone else’s tree? That’s Stealing, and God punishes Sinners by sending them to a Devil’s Hell. ~ World Religions like Judaism and Catholicism, and Cults like Mormonism and Jehovah’s Witnesses Graft this poisonous branch into the Gospel by saying we are Saved by our good Works. But the Bible says that if we want to be Saved by Works, then Grace is no longer Grace. The remaining good branches of this religious tree stop bearing the fruit of Life; because that good tree is now made bad. ~ Prune things you think you can do to earn your way to Heaven, and make the tree Good…

The Bible says there is coming a day when Israel will be grafted back into the good Olive Tree, but room for them will need to be made by cutting off the Gentiles; your time is ticking. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is a Tree of Life; here is its fruit! God sent his Unique Son to be born of a Virgin, so that he could be the Sinless sacrifice that Atones for our Iniquity. He shed his blood on the Cross for the Remission of Sin, was buried, but conquered death by rising from the grave! By Grace are ye Saved, through Faith in Jesus as your Lord God and Savior; this is not by Works so that no one can boast in themselves. If you can boast, then your tree does indeed have a branch from the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Its fruit is meant to show you naked before God; be ashamed. Confess Jesus Christ as your Lord God and be clothed in his Righteousness…

Matthew 12:33 NIV; "Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and its fruit will be bad, for a tree is recognized by its fruit.
 

Nancy

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Been studying the Early Church Fathers Nancy.
They learned from the Apostles so I tend to trust them.
It's a shame the CC changed over time.
It could have been the perfect church.
Well, almost perfect - nothing in man is perfect.
There is a book that speaks good info on the "early church fathers" starting with Polycarp. The title is "Will The Real Heretics Please Stand Up". It is very good IMHO. Though, maybe you already know this information.

 
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GodsGrace

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You might go back and study some more, I already have my degree.
In what Rockerduck??

1. Persons with degrees to not seem to have deep discourse with those of us who do not.
Basically, because we say dumb things.....

2. As you have because you CLEARLY do not know church history.

You might some kind of degree...maybe...I don't know you.
But it sure AIN'T in church history or theology.
 

GodsGrace

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Remember, the context of this discussion is the word of God. We aren't talking about hierarchical authority such as the Father being the Boss, Jesus as the Son in subjection to Him, and the church in subjection to Jesus. Yes, that is the order of rank, but that isn't the context of what we are discussing. It's the authority that is invested in scripture. Scripture, inspired by the Spirit of Christ, whether written by Paul, Stephen, or even Balaam, or spoken by Christ Himself, is the word of God and has the same authority, and the same source.
Sorry Brakelite....
still wrong.

Any sentence that Jesus speaks is to take PRECEDENCE over any other sentence in the bible.

If a person thinks there is some discrepancy (which there isn't when all scripture is properly understood) then that person
ALWAYS goes to the words of Jesus.