Understanding the GodHead.

Lambano said:

Theotēs means "the state of being God"

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More precisely, it is the state of being acted upon by God. There are 2 or 3 other alterations of theos, like this, in the TR.

AW Bowman said:

The early controversy between Merkabah mysticism and rabbinic Judaism concerning the number of “powers” in heaven arose after 100 BCE, and the debates were well-known and discussed during the Second Temple period. It was during the period following the advent of Jesus Christ that first-century Jewish Christianity was added to the “powers” debate.

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You are mistaken. The powers debate is not pre-Gnostic, and the Talmud nor Ester is among the Dead Sea Scrolls, but some letters to Bar Kochba have been found in the same area.

Hobie said:

If you deny Christ, to say nothing of the Holy Ghost, you are on the path that leads to the unpardonable sin, need to reconsider..

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What verse states what you claim? FYI, I do not deny Jesus is the Christ. I deny what you claim that contradicts Scripture that anyone other than the Father (whose name is YHWH) is God.

Hobie said:

The scripture gives us that the Godhead, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, consists of three distinct Persons, yet these three are One. There are many arguments put forward against the GodHead, but the first and foremost is how can God be One God and at the same time be three Persons?

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As you said, regarding God, there's a plurality within unity, as it is with water, for example, and I use water as an analogy solely to validate that plurality within unity is possible, and show how the triune God is one:

Water exists in three states: solid, liquid, and vapor, each distinct, united as one because each is the same one substance: water.

God exists in Three Persons: the Thought (the Father), the Word (the Son), and the Holy Spirit, each distinct, united as one because They are the same one Essence: Love. "God is Love" (1 Jn. 4:8;16)

If you can understand and accept that, then I believe that you can understand Jesus's comparison of the Holy Trinity to light, which He dictated to Maria Valtorta on July 1st, 1943, because as He puts it, "this [light] is the only thing that can represent God without being antithetical to His spiritual Essence." See below.

Figures have been necessary for your human dullness to conceive the Father and the Spirit, incorporeal Beings of infinite beauty, whom you, however, do not conceive with your human senses. To the point that you do not readily turn to Them, will all the fullness of thought, to invoke Them as you invoke me, Whom you conceive of as the God-Man. You thus do not understand even distantly the incomparable mystery of Our Trinity.

To conceive of God comparisons to created beings must not be made. God is not to be compared. He is. In being there is everything. But being has no body, and the eternal Being has no body.

Look: God is light. This is the only thing that can still represent God without being antithetical to His spiritual Essence. The light exists, and yet it is incorporeal. You see it, but you cannot touch it. It exists.

Our Trinity is light. An unbounded light. The Source of Itself, living by Itself, and acting in Itself. The universe's greatness does not equal Its Infinity. Its essence fills the Heavens, glides over creation, and holds sway over the infernal caverns. It does not penetrate you—that would be the end of Hell—but it overwhelms them with its glowing, which is beatific in Heaven, comforting on earth, and terrifying in Hell. Everything is threefold in Us. Forms, effects, and powers.

God is light. A vast, majestic, and peaceful light is given by the Father. An infinite circle which has embraced all Creation since the moment when "Let there be light" was said until forever and ever, for God, Who existed eternally, has been embracing the Creation since it existed and will continue to embrace all that—in the final form, the eternal one, after the Judgement—will remain of Creation. He will embrace those who are eternal with Him in Heaven.

Within the eternal circle of the Father there is a second circle, begotten by the Father, working differently and yet not working in contrary fashion, for the Essence is one. It is the Son. His light, more vibrant, not only gives life to bodies, but gives Life to souls that had lost it by means of His Sacrifice. It is a flood of powerful, gentle rays which nourish your humanity and instruct your mind.

Within the second circle, produced by the two workings of the first circles, there is a third circle with an even more vibrant, inflamed light. It is the Holy Spirit. He is the Love produced by the relations of the Father with the Son, the intermediary between the Two, and a consequence of the Two, the wonder of wonders.

Thought created the Word, and Thought and the Word love one another. Love is the Paraclete. He acts upon your spirit, your soul, and your flesh. For He consecrates the whole temple of your person, created by the Father and redeemed by the Son, created in the image and likeness of the Triune God. The Holy Spirit is the chrism upon the creation of your person, made by the Father; He is Grace to benefit from the Sacrifice of the Son; He is knowledge and Light to understand the Word of God. A more concentrated Light, not because it is limited in comparison to the others, but because it is the spirit of the Spirit of God, and because, in its condensation, it is most powerful, as it is most powerful in its effects.

That is why I said, 'When the Paraclete comes, He will instruct you.' Not even I, Who am the Father's Thought that has become the Word, can make you understand what the Holy Spirit can make you understand with a single flash.

If every knee must bend before the Son, before the Paraclete every spirit must bend, for the Spirit gives life to the spirit. It is Love that created the Universe, taught the first Servants of God, spurred the Father to give the Commandments, enlightened the Prophets, conceived the Redeemer with Mary, placed Me on the Cross, sustained the Martyrs, governed the Church, and works wonders of Grace.

A white fire, unbearable for human sight and nature, He concentrates in Himself the Father and the Son and is the incomprehensible Gem, Who cannot be gazed upon, of our eternal Beauty. Fixed in the abyss of Heaven, He draws to Himself all the spirits of triumphant Church and breathes into Himself those who are able to live by the spirit in the militant Church.

Our Trinity, our threefold and single nature is set in a single splendor in that point from which all that is is generated in an eternal being.

Say 'Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit' (excerpt from The Notebooks: 1943)

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May Jesus's words and the Holy Spirit help you to now understand the Holy Trinity!

The premise of this thread is flawed. There is no "godhead" in Scripture to understand. A bad translation used that term but that terms is not used to translation without "James" in the title released in the last several centuries.

Hobie said:

The core belief of the GodHead holds there is one God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, a unity of three co-eternal Persons. God is immortal, all-powerful, all-knowing, above all, and ever present. He has always been and is infinite and beyond our human comprehension and is forever worthy of worship by all of creation.

So how can we understand the incomprehensible that is God, how can our minds grasp what is beyond human thinking. In our human existence, the concept that God is One God, yet exists as three distinct persons, is foreign to us. However, the doctrine of the Godhead is without questions laid out in God's word....

Mark 1:10
And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:

So the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are clearly declared in scripture, the GodHead is taught throughout the Bible, it may not be fully comprehended but it cannot be denied.

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Spirit or Flesh?
Many prophecies indicated that the Coming One would arise from the "seed," the stock of humanity, in a particular from Abrahamic and Davidic stock. The Messiah would be from the biological chain within the human family, specifically of Jewish pedigree: "The Lord your God will rise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your own countrymen [literally, brothers]; you shall listen to him" (Deut.18:15). In this passage, Moses predicts that the coming Messiah would be a person "like me," raised up from "among" the people of Israel, and that God would not speak to the people directly, because they were afraid that if God spoke without a mediator they would die (V16). The coming "prophet" would be a man of whom it is said that God would "put his word in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him. And it shall come about whoever will not listen to My words which he shall speak in My name, I Myself will require it of him” (v. 18-19). To say that the Messiah is God Himself is to contradict the whole point of this prophecy. For it announces that the ultimate spokesman for God is expressly not God but a human being. The New Testament says that Jesus is the one who fulfilled this prophecy (Acts 3:22; 7:37). Understandably, no Jew who believe theses Scriptures ever imagined that the baby born in Bethlehem was going to be Jehovah himself come as a human baby.

In addition, Jehovah God says clearly that he is not a man (Numbers 23:19; Job 9:32). The converse is therefore true: if a person is a man, then he can not be God.

On the authority of Jesus himself we know that the categories of "flesh" and "spirit" are never to be confused or intermingled, though the course of God's Spirit can impact our world. Jesus said, "That which is born of flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is Spirit" (John 3:6). And "God is Spirit." The doctrine of the incarnation confuses these categories. What God has separated man has joined together! One of the charges that the apostle Paul levels at simple man is that we have "exchange the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man" (Romans 1:23). Has it ever dawned on us as we sit in church listening to how the glorious Creator made Himself into a man that we could be guilty of this very same thing? The doctrine of the incarnation has reduced the incorruptible God to our own corruptible image. We are made in God's image, not the other way around. It would be more appropriate to put this contrast in starker terms. The defining characteristic of the Creator God is his absolute holiness. God is utterly different from and so utterly transcendent over His creation that any confusion is forbidden!

However, we know that Jesus was begotten. Yet, not eternally begotten! Which is un-scriptural!

BEGOT', BEGOT'TEN, pp. of get. Procreated; generated.

Now let's look at John 1:10 regarding, the world was made through Him (Jesus).

Joh 1:10 In the world He was, and the world came into being through(dia) Him, and the world knew Him not." 11 To His own He came, and those who are His own accepted Him not."

To be a Christian means you know that our Lord Jesus is the diameter, the purpose of the universe. His kingdom is coming! This is God's purpose and it will not be frustrated.

Another verse saying the same thing is Hebrews 1:2. It says God has “appointed” His son to be the “heir of all things” and that it was “through him that he made the world'(s). Here our translations are not quite accurate, what the author wrote was not that through Jesus God made the world(s) but ages. God planned to complete His purpose for all creation through the agency of his son Jesus. The preposition that is used in relation to Jesus and the world, or the ages, is “through” (Greek dia from which you will see comes our English word diameter).

Dia is the “preposition of attendant circumstances" and signifies instrumental agency. Put simply, this means that dia denotes the means by which an action is accomplished. And Scripture tells us that God the originator is bringing His purpose, His logos to fulfillment through Jesus Christ. Jesus is the Agent, the Mediator of God's master plan. Jesus is always seen as secondary, or subordinate to the Father. There are occasional exceptions to this general use of the preposition dia. Sometimes blessings are said to come to us through God (e.g. 1 Cor 1:9; Heb.2: 10). But usually there is a clear distinction made between God’s initiating activity and the means through which God brings that activity to pass. The prepositions used of God's action are hypo and ek which point to primary causation or origin. Let's cement this idea in our minds by looking at one or two verses that highlight the difference: “yet for us there is but one God, the father, from [ek, ‘out from’ ] whom are all things, and we exist for [ eis, ‘to’ ] Him; and one lord, Jesus Christ, through [dia] him” (1Cor.8:6).

Prepositions are the signposts that point out the direction of a passage. Ek indicates something coming out from its source or origin, and indicates motion from the interior. In other words, all things came out from the loving heart of God, or God's “interior”, so to speak.

This agrees with Genesis 1:1 which says, “In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth”. Both verses say that the source of “all things” is the one true God, the Creator of the heavens and the earth and the Father of the Lord Jesus Christ. In contradistinction to this "one God and Father" out of Whom all things originate, the "one Lord, Jesus Messiah” is giving the preposition dia which means "through." In other words, Jesus is God's agent through whom God accomplishes His plan for our lives. This is a consistent pattern all the way through the N.T. God the Father is the source, the origin of all blessings, and Jesus His Son brings those blessings of salvation to us:

"Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ" (2 Cor.5:18).

"God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ… has blessed us… in Christ. He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to himself” (Eph.1:3-5).

"For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thess.5:9).

"God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus” (Rom. 2:16).

"For God… has saved us, and called us... according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity" (2 Tim 1:9).

"Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which god performed through him in your midst" (Acts 2:22).

Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Paul tell us in 1Co 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through (dia) whom we exist.


Always God the Father is the source and origin of all works, deeds and salvation which come to us through the mediatorship of his son. From Him comes all to us through our Lord Jesus Christ so that to God the Father made all the praise be directed. The Father is the sole origin and Creator of "all things." In contrast, Jesus is the Father's commissioned Lord Messiah through whom God's plan for the world is coming to completion. The whole Bible from cover to cover categorically states that God created the universe and all the ages with Jesus Christ at the center of his eternal purpose. Jesus is the diameter running all the way through.

“The world was made through him,” i.e. with Christ in mind.

In the light of this background, it is far better to read John's prologue to mean that in the beginning God had a plan, a dream, a grand vision for the world, and a reason by which he brought all things into being. This word or plan was expressive of who He is.

The docterine of the Godhead... teaches us what about JESUS being ONMISCIENT?

Well should not a member of the Godhead be onmiscient? You would think so... but That's not what scriptures says....

The Doctrine of the Trinity claims that Jesus is God, and it is for this reason the doctrine claims that Jesus is thus omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient, equal in all ways to the Father. In this short post we will be discussing the latter, is Jesus omniscient? God is definitely omniscient, thus in order for the Doctrine of the Trinity to hold true, Jesus must also be omniscient. If he is not, then there must be something wrong with this doctrine. At the same time, if we find Jesus not to be omniscient then we also arrive at the conclusion that Jesus is not equal to the Father. If Jesus does not know one thing that the Father knows, then obviously he is not omniscient, and if he is not omniscient like the Father, then he is not equal to the Father either.

Yes Jesus did know somethings that show us he is way above the average man, this is because he is anointed (Messiah), not because he is God. The Prophets all received revelations from God, information that only God and that prophet knew, but this did not mean that the prophets were God. Jesus as we shall see also receives revelations from God, this is why he knows things that other men do not.

(Webster’s Dictionary) Omniscient - knowing all things-the Omniscient God-.

Mark 13:32: "No one knows the day or hour, not even the angels in Heaven nor the Son, but ONLY the Father."

This is a very conclusive statement. Jesus admits that he does not know the day or hour, and that ONLY the Father knows. This alone is enough to show us that Jesus is not omniscient.

Luke 8:45: "Jesus then asked, ‘Who touched me?"

This episode is about a woman who needs healing who touches Jesus in a crowd. Jesus responds by saying, "Who touched me?" It is obvious that he does not know who touched him. We cannot say that he knew but was just asking for whatever reason. This would be to speculate on a grand scale. It would be adding to what the Bible says. Just read the Bible. He did not know. He is not all knowing.

Revelation 1:1: "The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to him, to show his servants what must happen soon."

Who received a revelation? Jesus Christ. Who gave it to him? GOD! God gave Jesus a revelation to show his servants what must happen soon. Vines Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words defines revelation as:

Revelation – The communication of the knowledge of God.

(Webster’s Dictionary) Revelation – God’s disclosure to humanity of Himself.

Jesus received a communication, a disclosure FROM GOD. God knew something that Jesus did not know. Again, Jesus is not omniscient.

John 12:49: "For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it."

In this verse the Father is showing Jesus how to say something. Why does Jesus need to be shown how to do or say anything if he is already all knowing. Not to mention the fact that the Father is commanding the Son. This is not equality.

Luke 2:52: "And Jesus advanced in wisdom and age and favor before God and man."

He advanced in what? Wisdom. He was advancing in the knowledge of God. Someone who is all knowing does not need to advance in anything, especially wisdom.

Matthew 4:1: "Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the desert."

Why does Jesus need to be led? He is supposed to be equal with the Holy Spirit. He should know everything that the Spirit knows, although it is obvious that he does not. He needed to be led.

Matthew 26:39: "He advanced a little and fell prostrate in prayer, saying, ‘My Father if it is possible, let this cup pass from me; yet, not as I will, but as you will".

I will not go in depth into the fact that Jesus’ will is not the same as the Father’s will, but do notice it.

Back to the original topic. Jesus knew that the cross awaited him and he wanted to see if there was any other way while still remaining in the will of God.

Jesus is asking the Father a question that he does not know the answer to. What does Jesus want to know? IF IT IS POSSIBLE? He does not know if it is. Someone who is asking another a question for which he does not have the answer to is not all knowing.

Conclusion – From the Scriptures above I do not see any way in which someone can conclude that Jesus is omniscient. Jesus knew many things, but he also did not know many things. This is not what being omniscient means. It means knowing EVERYTHING. Jesus is not omniscient and thus he is not equal to God. Who is Jesus then? Jesus is The Messiah, The Anointed one of God. This is what Messiah means, Anointed. The Messiah was never supposed to be God, he is supposed to be a man anointed by God’s Spirit. In order to understand who Jesus is we must first come to a good understanding of what Jesus’ most important title of Messiah means in depth. After all, he is Jesus the Christ (Messiah).

MonoBiblical said:

You are mistaken. The powers debate is not pre-Gnostic, and the Talmud nor Ester is among the Dead Sea Scrolls, but some letters to Bar Kochba have been found in the same area.

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Mistaken? Perhaps. However, my point was that the two-powers debate originated between the "rabbinical group and the adheres of the Merkabah group, which arose about 100 BCE", and Christianity was included in the debate in the first century. I'm not sure what the "... Talmud nor Ester is among the Dead Sea Scrolls, but some letters to Bar Kochba have been found in the same area" comment adds to the conversation. Even so, my brain is not quite as nimble as it was three or four decades ago.

Even, so, it would appear from the posts, so far, there is not much information in advancing an understanding of the Godhead.

Wrangler said:

No. You are a single being, a single person. Having parts does not make each part a different person and certainly these parts do not add up to 3.

You got 2 hands and 2 feet, etc.


To properly understand the human condition, here is the formula:
SOUL = BODY + SPIRIT

2 add up to a whole. This is not 3, not triune, which is a Pagan idea not found in the Bible, e.g., a triangle is a single shape, not a triune shape.

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I take my position from Matt 10:28 and 1Thess 5:23 which indicate that the body, spirit, and soul are three separate elements united to create a single human being. I never suggested that these elements were "persons" or a geometric construct. Yet, given that your equation is correct, please explain your understanding of the integration process of the spirit and body and how that results in a soul.

Added comment: Gen 2:7 does give a measure of credence to your position. However, that raises a whole series of additional questions., outside of the thread's subject.

AW Bowman said:

I take my position from Matt 10:28 and 1Thess 5:23 which indicate that the body, spirit, and soul are three separate elements united to create a single human being. I never suggested that these elements were "persons"

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Then it is not comparable. A being is a person.

Wrangler said:

Then it is not comparable. A being is a person.

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I did not say the elements were beings. What are you attempting to establish/prove?

AW Bowman said:

I take my position from Matt 10:28 and 1Thess 5:23 which indicate that the body, spirit, and soul are three separate elements united to create a single human being. I never suggested that these elements were "persons" or a geometric construct. Yet, given that your equation is correct, please explain your understanding of the integration process of the spirit and body and how that results in a soul.

Added comment: Gen 2:7 does give a measure of credence to your position. However, that raises a whole series of additional questions., outside of the thread's subject.

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Psalms 104:29 -30: "When you take away their breath (ruah), they perish and return to the dust from which they came. When you send forth your breath (ruah), they are created."

Ecclesiates 12:7: "And the dust returns to the earth as it once was, and the life breath (ruah) returns to God who gave it."

Psalms 33:6: "When his spirit (ruah) departs he returns to his earth; on that day his plans perish."

This understanding is critical when one interprets a verse such as Luke 23:46:

"Father, into your hands I commend my spirit;" and when he said this he breathed his last.

If you use the Greek philosophical definition as most people do, you will arrive at the conclusion that at that moment Jesus’ Greek type spirit went to heaven to be with God. This of course is not possible because in John 20:17 when Jesus was raised from the dead after three days, he appeared to Mary of Magdala and told her:

"Stop holding on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father."

Jesus is clear that he has not yet been to the Father. Where has he been for three days? He has been in Sheol, the pit, the grave, the earth. Jesus himself tells us in John 12:32:

"And when I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw everyone to myself."

Jesus has been dead as Scripture says of him. On the third day God resurrected him. Also, if your spirit is in heaven you are not truly dead.

If we use the Jewish definition of spirit it will make perfect sense. Jesus’ breath of life returned to the Father and he died and was in the earth for three days. There is then no conflict with John 20:17.

So the best observation comes from Jesus Himself, at His death He teaches… (Luke 23:46) And Jesus, crying out with a loud voice, said, "Father, INTO YOUR HANDS I COMMIT MY SPIRIT." Having said this, He breathed His last. Read again what Jesus said…

Jesus gave up his Spirit but not His Soul. An example that supports this is when Mary at Jesus’ tomb turned and saw Jesus. She naturally got excited and Jesus told her… John 20:17 … Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father. Do not miss this connection, Jesus gave up his Spirit to the Father at death but told Mary He had not yet ascended to the Father after His resurrection. It is clear the scriptures never teach that the soul is or has an immortal subsistence. As both Jesus’ body and soul died and went to hades!

AW Bowman said:

I did not say the elements were beings. What are you attempting to establish/prove?

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Humans exist as individuals, not triune in nature, as claimed.

Hobie said:

So did humans create God, of course not. We have no control over His nature, He created man , not the other way around.

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True but irrelevant. God created us in his image of a single person. 7,000 singular pronouns in Scripture attest to his singular nature. You shall have no other gods before me, necessarily includes the trinitarian god before the singular God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Jesus.

My posts have received some excellent responses. Now, we can also add a fourth element to our existence, the Holy Spirit, which seems to be unique to only a few folks in the O.T. (but not indwelling) e.g. prophets, but more commonly today among professing Christians as an indwelling Spirit. That gives us (1) our spirit, (2) a physical body), (3) a soul, and (4) the Holy Spirit.

Again, I have no clue as to how any of these elements are united, integrated, or assembled to create a singular, unique human being, or how they affect the separation process when a person dies. The process is beyond my understanding (okay, the body decays). So, I have generally turned my attention from discovering the what, where, and how of God (a classical Greek mindset investigation) to understanding God, to the more classical Hebrew approach, i.e. what does God require of me? (Isa 55:6-9; 1Cor: 13:9-13) However, I am required to "know what I can of God", e.g. His heart, and to love Him and obey Him and His son, but not necessarily to "understand" Him - that comes later when I "fully know"

So, I have another question: If one figures out the configuration (what constitutes God), how will this enhance one's relationship with God and/or man? What quality of life or spiritual improvement(s) will this knowledge result in? What can one accomplish with this knowledge?

If I cannot figure out my existence, that I live with every day, how can I figure out God's existence?

I have attached an article for review and consideration. It is primarily a Bible study. I pray that it has some value.

Hobie said:

And yet He came, fully man and fully God, that is the basis of Christian belief,

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False. It is the basis of trinitarian belief.