No authority!

[theefaith]

All believers have this.

so all believers are apostles?

what about the authority of the keys? All believers too or Peter and his successors?

 

[Ferris Bueller]

cos you have no personal salvation

I have a personal saving relationship with God through Christ. I did not go through mortal man to get to God. I went through the immortal Christ to get to God. No human intervention required.

There is only one mediator and one covenant

Christ, and Christ alone.

cos that’s how Christ founded His church on priesthood!

heb 7:17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

Last time I checked Catholic priests are not "without Father or Mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life" (Hebrews 7:3).

Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Yes, we perform priestly duties, but NOT the priestly duty that only Christ himself did and which does not need to repeated over and over and over again.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

so all believers are apostles?

what about the authority of the keys? All believers too or Peter and his successors?

All believers have the privilege to forgive or not to forgive.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

not biblical

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Ephesians 1:13
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:5 
One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

What, do you think Protestants don't get baptized? You waste so much cyber breath talking about water baptism to an almost 100% water baptized anti-Catholic church. We teach Christ's command to be water baptized.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

The point I'm making is that there is an obvious and overt clergy/laity distionction in the NT. To deny this is to deny Scripture.
And yes - we are ALL a nation of priests. But the very definition of a priest is a mediator - one who ooffers up sacrifice.

When Jesus is called our ONE Mediator in 1 Tim. 2:5 - this simply means that only HIS sacrifice can brin peace between us and the Father. HOWEVER, being the a Royal Priesthood that we are - we SHARE in His sacrifice (Col. 1:24). We intercede on behaf of one another (James 5:16, 1 John 5:16).

In a special way, the Ministerial priests have GOD-given authority to forgive or retain sins in Christ (John 20:21-23, James 5:14-15).
This authority was NOT given to the crowds - but ONLY to Jesus's inner circle.

In the Old Testament, there were three levels of Priests:
- The High Priest
- The Levitical/Ministerial Priesthood
- The rest of the people were a general priesthood of believers.

In the New Testament, there are also three levels of Priests:
- Jesus, our High Priest (1 Tim. 2:5, Heb. 7:22-25)
- The Ministerial Priests (James 5:14-15)
- The general priesthood of all Christians (1 Peter 2:5-9).

Just as with all New Testament fulfillments, the fulfillment is always more glorious than the Old Testament type.
In Rom 15:15-16, Paul uses the word “Hierurgeo”, which is the verb form of the Greek “Hierus” (priests) – the SAME word used for “priest” throughout the NT.

Rom 15:15-16:
But on some points I have written to you very boldly by way of reminder, because of the grace given me by God to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles in the PRIESTLY service of the gospel of God, so that the offering of the Gentiles may be acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.

Your KJV translates this word as “Minister” because of an obvious anti-Priest Protestant agenda.

If all you were trying to say is that there are disctinctions between clergy and laity, you could have saved lots of writing! I would have agreed with you!

Maybe they translate it that way do to an anti Roman agenda, maybe not. The KJV was written after the dark ages of Rome running Europe, the inquisitions, and the Catholic counter reformation . witht actual testimony it is just a guess.

But given the vast avbuses of priests i those days, I really can't blame them.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

priest may be singular but order is not
It is a priestly order
That’s why Paul can say

2 Corinthians 5:18
And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

order is singular as well. the word is "taxis" and is the accusative singular feminine! Sorry but you are wrong again !

 

[theefaith]

What, do you think Protestants don't get baptized? You waste so much cyber breath talking about water baptism to an almost 100% water baptized anti-Catholic church. We teach Christ's command to be water baptized.

you said faith alone?

 

[Ferris Bueller]

If all you were trying to say is that there are disctinctions between clergy and laity, you could have saved lots of writing! I would have agreed with you!

This is true, lol. The fundamental point of contention is the Catholics say you can't get to God except through their priesthood.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

you said faith alone?

It's faith 'apart from works', not faith 'alone'. Faith 'alone', for what that actually means in the Bible is condemned.

But anyway, most Protestants are water baptized so the argument is a big nothing. And we surely don't get baptized to be transformed into righteous people. That happens by faith 'apart from works'.

 

[Brakelite]

I have Blacklit and Ferris Bueller on ignore because they offer no intelligent rebuttal to my posts, especially posts #1488, 1490, and 1492. Just stupid, childish insults.

And you ignored post #1496. Not sure why you removed your shoes in above pic, but my commendations to the photographer.

 

[theefaith]

It's faith 'apart from works', not faith 'alone'. Faith 'alone', for what that actually means in the Bible is condemned.

But anyway, most Protestants are water baptized so the argument is a big nothing. And we surely don't get baptized to be transformed into righteous people. That happens by faith 'apart from works'.

You still never explained the scriptures

Christian suffering!

Patience Implies suffering!

In order to bear fruit we must deny ourself, suffer, and die!

John 12:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

Jn 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Verses of Christian suffering:

Matthew 10:38
And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

Matthew 16:24
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Matthew 16:25
For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

John 12:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

25
He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

Romans 5:3
And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

Romans 5:4
And patience, experience; and experience, hope:

Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

2 Corinthians 12:9
And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

2 Thessalonians 1:5
Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

Colossians 1:11
Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness;

2 Tim 2:3 Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.

2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

Phil 1:29
For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

James 1:2-8
My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations; Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience. But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing

Hebrews 6:12
That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

Hebrews 10:36
For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

Hebrews 12:4
Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

1 Peter 2:20
For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God.

Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

 

[theefaith]

It's faith 'apart from works', not faith 'alone'. Faith 'alone', for what that actually means in the Bible is condemned.

But anyway, most Protestants are water baptized so the argument is a big nothing. And we surely don't get baptized to be transformed into righteous people. That happens by faith 'apart from works'.

explain

Charity / Love of God!

Deut. 6:4
Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord:

5 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

Luke 7:47
Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much:

1 cor 13:2
And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
(All faith = nothing without charity)


1 Peter 4:8
And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.
(Even above “Faith alone”?)

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

 

[theefaith]

It's faith 'apart from works', not faith 'alone'. Faith 'alone', for what that actually means in the Bible is condemned.

But anyway, most Protestants are water baptized so the argument is a big nothing. And we surely don't get baptized to be transformed into righteous people. That happens by faith 'apart from works'.

explain? But you never do
Your pet doctrine is more important than the Bible or the truth of a Jesus Christ right?

James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
james 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Oh I forgot your high priest luther said James is not scripture!

 

[Taken]

so all believers are apostles?

what about the authority of the keys? All believers too or Peter and his successors?

Apostle is a TITLE, of one who is Sent.
The Sending IS established BY God...
The sending TO DO WHAT...
Is to Spread the Word of God, Gods Word in their mouth, relaying to ears of men, in this world.

God calls whom He Decides.
God sends whom He Decides.
God Does NOT Need to Confer or get Approval from other men, whom God decides to call and send....at any given time.

God reveals in Scripture particular men, He chose, He called, He sent out with His Word in their mouth.

Those men are physically Dead.
The physically Living ...Ears and Mouths do not communicate with the Physically Dead.

Many men have Since been, Called and Sent out to Teach Gods Word...

And Many men have NOT been called by God or Sent by God to teach Gods Word.

Many men...Have Decided "themselves" or Been "Called by men", "appointed by men" "sent by men"...TO preach Gods Word...

It Requires the one "LISTENING" to such men....TO VERIFY...their preaching IS IN FACT Gods Word or Not....and TO VERIFY "IF" that portion of GODS WORD "does or does not RIGHTFULLY "Apply TO the Listener".

Preachers have a duty to Preach Gods Word.
The Listener has a duty to VERIFY...
What they Preach IS truly Gods Word.
And WHAT portion of "the Preachers Preaching" Applies to The person personally.

If Preacher says Open your heart, invite Jesus in... Does that Apply to you...IF you HAVE Already DONE That? No.

If a Preacher says the Unsaved soul is without God...Is that True? yes.
Dose that Apply to a man whose soul IS Saved? No.

If a Preacher says A Saved soul is Forgiven it's Sin...
And the Preacher says only The Lord God forgives Sin...So ask the Lord to forgive your Sin...
Does that Apply to a man who Sin was already Forgiven? SOUL Saved, spirit Quickened, Lords Spirit IN Him?

No. For that to Apply...the Lords Forgiveness, souls Salvation, spirit Quickening, Gods Spirit within the man...would ALL BE worthless FAILURES....
and the man would continue to Sin...and continue asking God over and over to Forgive Him....Because "the man IS making" Gods Forgiveness "insufficient".

A man's (mindful conclusion) of a Temporary Forgiveness...when what the Lord God Offered was a "Permanent" Forgiveness...and His Power within TO KEEP the man "forgiven Once and Forever".

 

[BreadOfLife]

No one is against leadership in the church. We're against YOUR supposed leadership in the church and what they insist only they can do. We don't need to go through the Catholic priesthood to get to God. That's the point you seem oblivious to. All believers have direct access to Jesus and the Father now through the new way of faith. The old way of mortal priest has been set aside. No man is necessary to facilitate a relationship with God anymore. That's what the New Covenant is ALL about. Get with the new program! God set aside the corrupt system of weak, mortal man being the required link between Himself and his people. Christ is the new required link between God and man. No Catholic priesthood necessary. They have usurped Christ's priesthood by saying you can only get to God through them. That's the very corruption Jesus himself put an end to.

WHY can't you just answer any of my questions??

I have asked you repeatedly - not to deny, but to REFUTE the verses that illustrate the need for a ministerial priesthood. You dance around it and hurl denials - but no subtance.

- WHY does Jesus NOT gtive the power to forgive other's sins to the crowds - and ONLY His innder circle (John 20:21-23, James 5:16)??

- WHY does Jesus tell His Apostls that the CHURCH is the final arbiter in matters of sinful behavior among the flock (Matt. 18:15-18).

- WHY does Paul tell the Corinthians that HE forgives sins among them - i the PERSON of Christ (2 Cor. 2:10).

- WHY does he make a distinction between the people of Corinth and THEM - the ambassadors for Christ that God has "...entrusted to 'US' the message of reconciliation. So 'WE' are ambassadors for Christ, as if God were appealing through 'US'"??


The reasom you guys reject so many thing is because you FAIL to understand that the New Covenant is NOT a "abolishment" of the Old Covenant. It is the FULFILLMENT of it (Matt. 5:17).
Every single OT Type has its NT Fulfillment - and that includes the Ministerial Priesthood.

 

[theefaith]

Apostle is a TITLE, of one who is Sent.
The Sending IS established BY God...
The sending TO DO WHAT...
Is to Spread the Word of God, Gods Word in their mouth, relaying to ears of men, in this world.

God calls whom He Decides.
God sends whom He Decides.
God Does NOT Need to Confer or get Approval from other men, whom God decides to call and send....at any given time.

God reveals in Scripture particular men, He chose, He called, He sent out with His Word in their mouth.

Those men are physically Dead.
The physically Living ...Ears and Mouths do not communicate with the Physically Dead.

Many men have Since been, Called and Sent out to Teach Gods Word...

And Many men have NOT been called by God or Sent by God to teach Gods Word.

Many men...Have Decided "themselves" or Been "Called by men", "appointed by men" "sent by men"...TO preach Gods Word...

It Requires the one "LISTENING" to such men....TO VERIFY...their preaching IS IN FACT Gods Word or Not....and TO VERIFY "IF" that portion of GODS WORD "does or does not RIGHTFULLY "Apply TO the Listener".

Preachers have a duty to Preach Gods Word.
The Listener has a duty to VERIFY...
What they Preach IS truly Gods Word.
And WHAT portion of "the Preachers Preaching" Applies to The person personally.

If Preacher says Open your heart, invite Jesus in... Does that Apply to you...IF you HAVE Already DONE That? No.

If a Preacher says the Unsaved soul is without God...Is that True? yes.
Dose that Apply to a man whose soul IS Saved? No.

If a Preacher says A Saved soul is Forgiven it's Sin...
And the Preacher says only The Lord God forgives Sin...So ask the Lord to forgive your Sin...
Does that Apply to a man who Sin was already Forgiven? SOUL Saved, spirit Quickened, Lords Spirit IN Him?

No. For that to Apply...the Lords Forgiveness, souls Salvation, spirit Quickening, Gods Spirit within the man...would ALL BE worthless FAILURES....
and the man would continue to Sin...and continue asking God over and over to Forgive Him....Because "the man IS making" Gods Forgiveness "insufficient".

A man's (mindful conclusion) of a Temporary Forgiveness...when what the Lord God Offered was a "Permanent" Forgiveness...and His Power within TO KEEP the man "forgiven Once and Forever".

please explain Jn 20:21-23

 

[Taken]

No Authority!! ?

Yes men have Authority to preach Gods Word.

And men have the Teaching of God, to Scripturally VEFIFY what they Hear out of the mouth of any man, claiming they speak Gods Word.

 

[theefaith]

No Authority!! ?

Yes men have Authority to preach Gods Word.

And men have the Teaching of God, to Scripturally VEFIFY what they Hear out of the mouth of any man, claiming they speak Gods Word.

And by this method it’s impossible to be in error?

only the church teaching by the apostles is free from error Matt 28:19 Jn 8:32 Jn 16:13

 

[justbyfaith]

- WHY does Jesus NOT gtive the power to forgive other's sins to the crowds - and ONLY His innder circle (John 20:21-23, James 5:16)??

He gives the power to forgive and retain sins to all who "receive the Holy Spirit" (John 20:22-23).

 

[Taken]

WHY can't you just answer any of my questions??

I have asked you repeatedly - not to deny, but to REFUTE the verses that illustrate the need for a ministerial priesthood. You dance around it and hurl denials - but no subtance.

- WHY does Jesus NOT gtive the power to forgive other's sins to the crowds - and ONLY His innder circle (John 20:21-23, James 5:16)??

- WHY does Jesus tell His Apostls that the CHURCH is the final arbiter in matters of sinful behavior among the flock (Matt. 18:15-18).

- WHY does Paul tell the Corinthians that HE forgives sins among them - i the PERSON of Christ (2 Cor. 2:10).

- WHY does he make a distinction between the people of Corinth and THEM - the ambassadors for Christ that God has "...entrusted to 'US' the message of reconciliation. So 'WE' are ambassadors for Christ, as if God were appealing through 'US'"??


The reasom you guys reject so many thing is because you FAIL to understand that the New Covenant is NOT a "abolishment" of the Old Covenant. It is the FULFILLMENT of it (Matt. 5:17).
Every single OT Type has its NT Fulfillment - and that includes the Ministerial Priesthood.

Keep in Perspective.

The Church is Christs Church.
The Word of Truth is Jesus.

Man-made Churches ARE Supposed to Have Men Speaking to the Listeners "with Gods Word in their mouth"...

When the Speaker, Speaks "outside / beyond" the Scope of Gods Word...
• Nothing in Scripture Teaches the "Listener of THAT Speaker to Agree with THAT SPEAKER"!

It is Catholic Churches that "require" all church members to Agree with "their" "appointed, elected" Speakers...(pope, cardinals, priests, bishops)...whatever Titles they go by, as appointed by the "man made table of hierarchy" of the Catholic Church.

It is a well known FACT... the Catholic Church "Members"...agree to be "sunservant" to Hierachy Catholic appointed/Elected teaching.

It is a well known FACT...a great number of Converted men in Christ...protest/reject Catholic Teaching that is Outside the Scope of Scripture, as Taught BY the Catholic Hierachy.

Your attempt to PROVE what IS Not written IN Scripture...IS a Two fold Attempt:
1) IS not necessary to be to Be Written in Scripture.
2) IT IS "UNCLEARLY" written in Scripture and Requires Deductions of This, That, Therefore mindful Logical conclusion, supports Catholic Teaching, not Clearly Stated in Scripture.

Well...for some people THAT ^ is a convoluted circle jerk of conniving (with A Cunning Mind and a Mind ability to make what is NOT appear plausible to a LOGICAL MIND, and Rejected...plain and simple.

Rom 8:
[7]...the carnal mind is enmity against God: ....

Men Trying to Psychologically, Logically, convince a Carnal Mind to Believe IN the Lord God... by men spouting their Doctrines Devised by, logically thinking Carnal minds of men... IS rejected by many.
Accept it.