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BreadOfLife

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I see Catholics aren't any better at engaging in discussion than us Protestants. Don't you get it that your ceremonies and liturgy don't mean anything if you're not going to be different in character? Stop taking comfort out of your religious activities and start drawing comfort from being different in character. I learned this lesson many years ago. That's why I detest the Catholic religion, and similar Protestant religions. They draw life and happiness and joy from liturgy instead of from godly character.
No - I simply won't allow people to spew lies and other filth against Christ's Church with impunity.
If somebody has incorrect preconceived ideas about the Catholic Church - as YOU do - I usually begin with giving them the correct information.

HOWEVER - when they descened ointo a cesspool of lies, myths and fairy tales, then I expose them. If you don't approve - too bad.
Just be honest and you won't have to worry about it.
[/QUOTE]I don't want to be misunderstood. I've met beautiful, godly Catholics and members of mainstream Protestant denominations. I'm in no way broad stroking all members of these churches as dead and lifeless and misguided. I'm against the movements themselves.[/QUOTE]
That's your prerogative.
 

Ferris Bueller

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No - I simply won't allow people to spew lies and other filth against Christ's Church with impunity.
If somebody has incorrect preconceived ideas about the Catholic Church - as YOU do - I usually begin with giving them the correct information.

HOWEVER - when they descened ointo a cesspool of lies, myths and fairy tales, then I expose them. If you don't approve - too bad.
Just be honest and you won't have to worry about it.
I don't want to be misunderstood. I've met beautiful, godly Catholics and members of mainstream Protestant denominations. I'm in no way broad stroking all members of these churches as dead and lifeless and misguided. I'm against the movements themselves.
That's your prerogative.
That's right, it's EVERBODY'S prerogative. You just have to leave us alone and stop fishing for fights in Protestant forums. You're failing the test. You're not handling this well. But you brought it upon yourself. There's a great big wall between Catholics and Protestants and it's there for a reason. And just to be clear, I'm speaking from the 10,000 ft. view of things. Like I say, I've met wonderful genuine Christians who are Catholics. I believe they can exist on your side of the fence, too. We just need to keep our doctrinal opinions to ourselves where there is no discussion but instead just bitter divineness. Some things matter in the Christian faith. SOME THINGS DON'T.
 

BreadOfLife

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No...that is an exaggeration.
And you continue to take on the nature and employment of the accuser of the brethren (Revelation 12:10-11)...
Soooo, you can LIE al yo want and just call it an "exaggeration".
Show me the Scripture verse that defends this perverted position.

And, we're NOT "brethren" because you reject the Church. We COULD be if you came home.
But for now - I am justly accusing an enemy of Christ's Church as evil.
And therefore, my contention that sin is not inevitable is substantiated.

Because my point is that we can in fact have victory over (1 Corinthians 15:57) and freedom from (John 8:31-36) the power of sin (Matthew 1:21, Titus 2:14).

That the Lord is able to cause us to walk in His statutes and in his judgments ought to be evident in Ezekiel 36:27 and Philippians 2:13.
Sure - if a person can meet these CONDITION 100% of the time for the rest of their life - they CAN avoid sin.
However - MY challenge to YOU was to show me such a person because I have never met one - including YOU.[/QUOTE]
 

BreadOfLife

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That's right, it's EVERBODY'S prerogative. You just have to leave us alone and stop fishing for fights in Protestant forums. You're failing the test. You're not handling this well. But you brought it upon yourself. There's a great big wall between Catholics and Protestants and it's there for a reason. And just to be clear, I'm speaking from the 10,000 ft. view of things. Like I say, I've met wonderful genuine Christians who are Catholics. I believe they can exist on your side of the fence, too. We just need to keep our doctrinal opinions to ourselves where there is no discussion but instead just bitter divineness. Some things matter in the Christian faith. SOME THINGS DON'T.
WHERE do you get the idea that this is exclusively a "Protestant" forum??
It is a CHRISTIAN forum - but there YOU go with your biased, anti-Catholic nonsense.

And nobody is "fishing" for fights.
MY mission here is to seek out anti-Catholic lies and set the record straight because the thousands of people who visit here deserve to read the truth - even oif YOU don't think they do.
 

Ferris Bueller

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WHERE do you get the idea that this is exclusively a "Protestant" forum??
It is a CHRISTIAN forum - but there YOU go with your biased, anti-Catholic nonsense.

And nobody is "fishing" for fights.
MY mission here is to seek out anti-Catholic lies and set the record straight because the thousands of people who visit here deserve to read the truth - even oif YOU don't think they do.
You're failing, friend. You think your doctrinal constructs and beliefs and worship are more important than how you treat people. You have failed to see what being a Christian is all about.

17For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18For whoever serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men. Romans 14:17-18
 

justbyfaith

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And, we're NOT "brethren" because you reject the Church. We COULD be if you came home.
But for now - I am justly accusing an enemy of Christ's Church as evil.

I may be an enemy of the Catholic Church by your estimation...but I am not an enemy of Christ's church and neither am I an enemy of Christ.

For Christ's church consists of all those who place their faith in Jesus and what He did for them on the Cross.

Soooo, you can LIE al yo want and just call it an "exaggeration".
Show me the Scripture verse that defends this perverted position.

I would only appeal to the genre of Star Trek and Spock's famous statement...

:D:p:cool:

Sure - if a person can meet these CONDITION 100% of the time for the rest of their life - they CAN avoid sin.
However - MY challenge to YOU was to show me such a person because I have never met one - including YOU.

I know that I consistently walk according to the Spirit and not the flesh in the majority of my time spent on earth.

When I fail to do so, the blood of Jesus Christ not only covers my sin (as per Romans 4:7-8)...it cleanses me from all sin (1 John 1:7).

So that every time that I fail, I can pick myself up by my bootstraps and tell myself that I do not have to do that ever again.

If the possibility does not exist for us to walk in freedom (John 8:31-36) and victory (1 Corinthians 15:57) according to the Spirit (Romans 8:4) consistently for the rest of our lives, then there would be no point in trying. We would just give up on living a holy life and resign to the fact that we are sinners and are going to sin.

What that translates into is us saying to God, "I am a sinner so I am going to sin."

When that becomes a matter of our will, it is no longer because of weakness...it translates into willful sinning against the Lord.
 
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BreadOfLife

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You're failing, friend. You think your doctrinal constructs and beliefs and worship are more important than how you treat people. You have failed to see what being a Christian is all about.

17For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18For whoever serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men. Romans 14:17-18
1 Tim. 5:20
But those who persist in sin should be rebuked in front of everyone, so that the others will stand in fear of sin.

Exod 20:16
“You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor."

That's what it's all about, son . . .
 

Ronald Nolette

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179. Baptism by water (Baptismus fluminis) is, since the promulgation of the Gospel, necessary
for all men without exception, for salvation.

Nope! It is essential for growth and discipleship. But one has to be saved first before they can be baptized.
 

Ferris Bueller

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1 Tim. 5:20
But those who persist in sin should be rebuked in front of everyone, so that the others will stand in fear of sin.

We're not elders, lol. We're just regular everyday people.

Exod 20:16
“You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor."

That's what it's all about, son . . .
I'm not your son. You are talking in a condescending manner to me and others here. You show that I am not saying anything false about you. You value your church's doctrine and beliefs and worship over walking in the fruit of the Spirit. That's not uncommon on this side of the fence, either. I see it to be especially true in the more rigid and liturgical denominations, like yours. You need to learn what really counts toward being an obedient follower of Christ. It has little to do with what you're pushing here, and how you're doing it.
 

Ronald Nolette

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it may be helpful to illustrate with cases where the pagan influence fallacy could be committed against his own position (e.g., the practice of circumcision was practiced in the ancient world by a number of peoples—including the Egyptians—but few Jews or Christians would say that its divinely authorized use in Israel was an example of “pagan corruption”).

Whenever one encounters a proposed example of pagan influence, one should demand that its existence be properly documented from primary sources or through reliable, scholarly secondary sources. After receiving documentation supporting the claim of a pagan parallel, one should ask a number of questions:

Is there a parallel? Frequently, there is not.
The claim of a parallel may be erroneous, especially when the documentation provided is based on an old or undisclosed source. For example: “The Egyptians had a trinity. They worshiped Osiris, Isis, and Horus, thousands of years before the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost were known” (Robert Ingersoll, Why I Am an Agnostic). This is not true. The Egyptians had an Ennead—a pantheon of nine major gods and goddesses. Osiris, Isis, and Horus were simply three divinities in the pantheon who were closely related by marriage and blood and who figured in the same myth cycle. They did not represent the three persons of a single divine being (the Christian understanding of the Trinity). The claim of an Egyptian trinity is simply wrong.

Is the parallel dependent or independent?
Even if there is a pagan parallel, that does not mean that there is a causal relationship involved. The idea that similar forms are always the result of diffusion from a common source has long been rejected by archaeology and anthropology, and for very good reason: Humans are similar to each other and live in similar (i.e., terrestrial) environments, leading them to have similar cultural artifacts and views. For example, Fundamentalists have made much of the fact that Catholic art includes Madonna and Child images and that non-Christian art, all over the world, also frequently includes mother and child images. There is nothing sinister in this.

The fact is that, in every culture, there are mothers who hold their children! Sometimes this gets represented in art, including religious art, and it especially is used when a work of art is being done to show the motherhood of an individual. Mother-with child-images do not need to be explained by a theory of diffusion from a common, pagan religious source (such as Hislop’s suggestion that such images stem from representations of Semiramis holding Tammuz). One need look no further than the fact that mothers holding children is a universal feature of human experience and a convenient way for artists to represent motherhood.

Is the parallel antecedent or consequent?
Even if there is a pagan parallel that is causally related to a non-pagan counterpart, this does not establish which gave rise to the other. It may be that the pagan parallel is a late borrowing from a non-pagan source. Frequently, the pagan sources we have are so late that they have been shaped in reaction to Jewish and Christian ideas.

Sometimes it is possible to tell that pagans have been borrowing from non-pagans. Other times, it cannot be discerned who is borrowing from whom (or, indeed, if anyone is borrowing from anyone). For example: The ideas expressed in the Norse Elder Edda about the end and regeneration of the world were probably influenced by the teachings of Christians with whom the Norse had been in contact for centuries (H. A. Guerber, The Norsemen, 339f).

Is the parallel treated positively, neutrally, or negatively?
Even if there is a pagan parallel to a non-pagan counterpart, that does not mean that the item or concept was enthusiastically or uncritically accepted by non-pagans. One must ask how they regarded it. Did they regard it as something positive, neutral, or negative?

For example: Circumcision and the symbol of the cross might be termed “neutral” Jewish and Christian counterparts to pagan parallels. It is quite likely that the early Hebrews first encountered the idea of circumcision among neighboring non-Jewish peoples, but that does not mean they regarded it as a religiously good thing for non-Jews to do. Circumcision was regarded as a religiously good thing only for Jews because for them it symbolized a special covenant with the one true God (Gen. 17). The Hebrew scriptures are silent in a religious appraisal of non-Jewish circumcision.

Similarly, the early Christians who adopted the cross as a symbol did not do so because it was a pagan religious symbol (the pagan cultures which use it as a symbol, notably in East Asia and the Americas, had no influence on the early Christians). The cross was used as a Christian symbol because Christ died on a cross. Christians did not adopt it because it was a pagan symbol they liked and wanted to copy.

Examples of negative parallels are often found in Genesis. For instance, the Flood narrative (Gen. 6-9) has parallels to pagan flood stories, but is written so that it refutes ideas in them. Thus Genesis attributes the flood to human sin (6:5-7), not overpopulation, as Atrahasis’ Epic and the Greek poem Cypria did. The presence of flood stories in cultures around the world does not undermine the validity of the biblical narrative, but lends it more credence.

Criticism, refutation, and replacement are also the principles behind modern holidays being celebrated to a limited extent around the same time as former pagan holidays. In actuality, reports of Christian holidays coinciding with pagan ones are often inaccurate (Christmas does not occur on Saturnalia, for example). However, to the extent the phenomenon occurs at all, Christian holidays were introduced to provide a wholesome, non-pagan alternative celebration, which thus critiques and rejects the pagan holiday.

This is the same process that leads Fundamentalists who are offended at the (inaccurately alleged) pagan derivation of Halloween to introduce alternative “Reformation Day” celebrations for their children. (This modern Protestant holiday is based on the fact that the Reformation began when Martin Luther nailed his 95 theses to the church door in Wittenberg, Germany, on October 31, 1517.) Another Fundamentalist substitution for Halloween has been “harvest festivals” that celebrate the season of autumn and the gathering of crops. These Fundamentalist substitutions are no more “pagan” than the celebrations of days or seasons that may have been introduced by earlier Christians.

Historical truth prevails
Ultimately, all attempts to prove Catholicism “pagan” fail. To make a charge of paganism stick, one must be able to show more than a similarity between something in the Church and something in the non-Christian world. One must be able to demonstrate a legitimate connection between the two, showing clearly that one is a result of the other, and that there is something wrong with the non-Christian item.

In the final analysis, nobody has been able to prove these things regarding a doctrine of the Catholic faith, or even its officially authorized practices.

Is Catholicism Pagan? | Catholic Answers

All you are doing is giving a list of potentialities!

All religions have neutral paralelles. but not all religions sought to Christianize pagan customs like the RCC has.

I am not saying the Chruch in toto is pagan, but that it is steeped in pagan practices and mysticism. You overreached.
 

Ronald Nolette

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This nonsense was taken from an anti-Catholic website - NOT a historical source.
This guy is as ignorant as YOU are and also believe Hislop's manure.

BOTH
of you need to do some actual research -OUTSIDE of Hislop . . .


I am sorry, I forgot that for you , unless it has the Nihil Obstat and Impramatur You don't consider it valid! But it is histopry whether you wish to like it or not!

Remember this is the church that sent untold millions of babies to limbo before they cancelled it!

This is the church that made eating meat on Friday a mortal sin before they cancelled it.

This is the chruch that created purgatory.
This is the church that said wearing a brown Scapular would keep one from hell.
This is the church that still practices indulgences to get people out of mythical purgatory!
This is the church that announced anathema against anyone reading the bible!
 

Paul Christensen

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The church that Jesus founded had no scripture except the Old Testament.
It is interesting to note that Jesus said this:
"He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him" (John 14:21).

At the time He said this, all they had were Moses and the Prophets. So this backs up your comment.

No Pope Peter, no Apostolic succession, no Holy Roman Empire, no Catholic Mass, no new doctrines dreamed up by the "Magisterium". Just Jesus and His 12 disciples. Everything pointed to Jesus then, and when He fulfilled His promise to send "another Comforter" after His ascension, everything still points to Him through the indwelling Person of the Holy Spirit. In fact, when He said, "I will never leave you nor forsake you", He spoke the truth even though He is not with us in person. Having the indwelling Holy Spirit is exactly the same as having Jesus with us - in fact, the presence of Jesus is immensely more powerful because the physical Jesus was with the disciples, but Jesus is now within us, not as His physical Person, but in the Person of the Holy Spirit. This is why we are able to do greater works than Jesus did in Israel, because the gospel, with the accompanying power of the Holy Spirit is being spread throughout the whole world, causing millions to receive Christ as Saviour. That is something that Jesus could not do in person, but being in us through the Person of the Holy Spirit, Jesus is able to accomplish much more through faithful godly people sharing the gospel in every country where they are living.

Jesus is still Head of His church, and not the papal usurper who thinks he is.
 

theefaith

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What was Paul's answer to the Philippian jailor when the guy asked the same question: "What must I do to be saved?'

Notice that Paul did not say, "Join the true church and obey everything that Pope Peter says."

obedience of faith rom 1:5
 

Paul Christensen

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obedience of faith rom 1:5
That's right. It is all summarised in the New Testament gospels, epistles, and Revelation. Once the last Apostle died, there is no further revelation or added doctrine.

All the doctrines that have been instituted after the last Apostle died are not inspired by the Holy Spirit, but are the inventions of man. The faithful godly Bible teachers are those who pass on what the Apostles have already written in the New Testament. Therefore, if a doctrine is not found in the New Testament, then it is false.
 

marksman

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It is interesting to note that Jesus said this:
"He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him" (John 14:21).

At the time He said this, all they had were Moses and the Prophets. So this backs up your comment.

No Pope Peter, no Apostolic succession, no Holy Roman Empire, no Catholic Mass, no new doctrines dreamed up by the "Magisterium". Just Jesus and His 12 disciples. Everything pointed to Jesus then, and when He fulfilled His promise to send "another Comforter" after His ascension, everything still points to Him through the indwelling Person of the Holy Spirit. In fact, when He said, "I will never leave you nor forsake you", He spoke the truth even though He is not with us in person. Having the indwelling Holy Spirit is exactly the same as having Jesus with us - in fact, the presence of Jesus is immensely more powerful because the physical Jesus was with the disciples, but Jesus is now within us, not as His physical Person, but in the Person of the Holy Spirit. This is why we are able to do greater works than Jesus did in Israel, because the gospel, with the accompanying power of the Holy Spirit is being spread throughout the whole world, causing millions to receive Christ as Saviour. That is something that Jesus could not do in person, but being in us through the Person of the Holy Spirit, Jesus is able to accomplish much more through faithful godly people sharing the gospel in every country where they are living.

Jesus is still Head of His church, and not the papal usurper who thinks he is.

Great post!!
 
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Illuminator

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We're not elders, lol. We're just regular everyday people.

I'm not your son. You are talking in a condescending manner to me and others here. You show that I am not saying anything false about you. You value your church's doctrine and beliefs and worship over walking in the fruit of the Spirit. That's not uncommon on this side of the fence, either. I see it to be especially true in the more rigid and liturgical denominations, like yours. You need to learn what really counts toward being an obedient follower of Christ. It has little to do with what you're pushing here, and how you're doing it.
You need to open your eyes. Most of the posts by Catholics are defensive, responses to endless insults. misrepresentations, and false histories. We have a right to defend ourselves. I don't expect you to like BoL style, but try to respond his content. When anti-Catholics are called out on their behavior, they cry like babies. We are accused of idolatry, paganism, Mary-worship, loads of drivel in a so called "Christian" forum so being polite wimps doesn't work on thick skulls.
Anti-Catholicism (Index Page for Apologist Dave Armstrong) | Dave Armstrong (patheos.com)
BTW, a vast majority of Protestants are NOT anti-Catholic, it's a vociferous minority that make a lot of annoying noise.
 
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theefaith

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Great post!!

jesus is the head of the church, but he ascended to heaven now who in charge?


Fathers have care of their children, spiritual fathers care for our souls!

Pope, papa, father, yes spiritual father!

Isa 22 father

Christ is the head of the church!
Peter is appointed by Christ as the head of the church on earth!
Supreme pastor and teacher of the faithful!

Matt 10:2
First apostle Peter:

Matt 17:27
Jesus and Peter are one:
Jesus even works a miracle to make this point. 27 Notwithstanding, lest we should offend them, go thou to the sea, and cast an hook, and take up the fish that first cometh up; and when thou hast opened his mouth, thou shalt find a piece of money: that take, and give unto them for me and thee.

Mt 16:18 Peter received the keys of the kingdom: (jurisdictional authority of the universal church) and the power to bind and loose:

Lk 22:32
Peter commanded to confirm his breathren:

Lk 22:32
Jesus prays for Peter:

Jn 21:17
Peter commanded to Feed my sheep:

Matt 10:2
Peter is the prince of the apostles, head of the universal church on earth!

Jn 20:21-23
Peter and the apostles receive the Holy Spirit and the power to forgive sins:

Acts 1:15 1:17 1:26
Peter declares Judas office of apostle valid and vacant and chooses a successor:

Acts 2:14
Peter preaches the first sermon on Pentecost:

Acts 2:38
Peter requires baptism as the outward sign and initiation into the new covenant!

Acts 4:8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel,

Acts 5 authority of the apostles verified by them being stricken dead by God verifying Matt 16:18 matt 18:18 whatsoever you bind on earth is bound in heaven and the apostles have the light of the Holy Spirit!


1 Tim 1 Paul is Timothy’s spiritual father.
1 Jn 2:1 little children are adult Christians, John is their spiritual father.

Apostles have Care for our souls
(Acts 20:28 Jn 21:17 Heb 13:17)
 

Behold

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THANK YOU for another incredibly stupid and unprepared post – and for showing us that you are nothing more than just another ignorant anti-Catholic who does’t do his homework.
Time to get schooled again, son . . .
You presented ONE paragraph (1213) from the Catechism concerning Baptism.
Yes – the paragraph YOU presented speaks of the WATER of Baptism – but NOT the Holy Spirit.
Ummmmm, there are SIXTY-TWO (62) paragraphs in the Catechism of the Catholic Church that explain the Sacrament of Baptism (1213-1274), the water, the gift of the Holy Spirit and His regenerative grace, the forgiveness of sin, etc.. One would think that even YOU would have the brains to see that before responding.
No less than FIFTEEN of these paragraphs are dedicated solely to explaining the effects of the Holy Spirit on the Baptized person.
SEVERAL other paragraphs are dedicated to explaining the forgiveness of sin, the spiritual regeneration of the believer and so on.
So again - it’s YOU who has been exposed.
. .


So, here is the reality.
Your cult's doctrine teaches that all that God does, He does through the Water Baptism.
This is what your demonic bible teaches as "born again, BY Water"......not by the Holy Spirit, but "Born again BY WATER".
This is why you believe that Noah was saved by water, as you told me, a few times.
Want to deny that now?

So, See that water cult theology?
This defines your religious organization as a Water Cult, and you as their follower.

If you want to continue to pretend that your "cult of the Virgin" does not teach that you are born again BY water, in the water, and of the water, as your church's doctrine states, then you are just continuing to try to deceive members here.
But, that is why your religious organization exists....So, how could you not be the same?