WHO IS THE CHURCH OF GOD? ****

[Doug]

Galatians 1:13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:

The members of the church of God were Jews and Gentiles who believed the preaching of Jesus, Peter and the disciples. These Jews and Gentiles are kingdom saints who believed the gospel of the kingdom (Matthew 4:23), the prophetic kingdom on earth, in which, they would reign with Christ; they believed on the name of Jesus, that he is the Son of God, the Christ (John 3:18 John 20:31).

The body of Christ is the church formed in this dispensation of grace, composed of Jew and Gentile who believe Paul's gospel of the grace of God (Acts 20:24 1 Corinthians 15:3-4). The body of Christ was not revealed or formed before Paul's conversion (Ephesians 3:2-9 1 Timothy 1:16).

The church of God consists of all who are purchased by the blood of Jesus, both the kingdom saints and the body of Christ.

These Jews and Gentiles, the kingdom saints, were members of the church of God, not the body of Christ.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Galatians 1:13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:

The members of the church of God were Jews and Gentiles who believed the preaching of Jesus, Peter and the disciples. These Jews and Gentiles are kingdom saints who believed the gospel of the kingdom (Matthew 4:23), the prophetic kingdom on earth, in which, they would reign with Christ; they believed on the name of Jesus, that he is the Son of God, the Christ (John 3:18 John 20:31).

The body of Christ is the church formed in this dispensation of grace, composed of Jew and Gentile who believe Paul's gospel of the grace of God (Acts 20:24 1 Corinthians 15:3-4). The body of Christ was not revealed or formed before Paul's conversion (Ephesians 3:2-9 1 Timothy 1:16).

The church of God consists of all who are purchased by the blood of Jesus, both the kingdom saints and the body of Christ.

These Jews and Gentiles, the kingdom saints, were members of the church of God, not the body of Christ.

I don't know how you can call Jews and Gentiles the "Church" and not the "Body of Christ?" That seems to me like an impossible distinction?

I agree that the Body of Christ is formed in this present dispensation, which is following the Cross. So are you referring to the "Kingdom Saints" as those who believed Jesus and his disciples *before the Cross?*

If so, it may be that you can call them the "Church" to some degree, without them being the "Body of Christ" in the NT sense of having eternal salvation? It would be an interesting study to determine, biblically, how God's People are referred to before the Cross and after the Cross.

My thought is that before the Cross the emphasis is largely on Israel, with a few Gentile converts to Judaism. But after the Cross, the exclusivity of the nation of Israel is removed in reference to "God's People," and all nations are viewed as included in the NT Church, the Body of Christ.

The Law is no longer given as a distinguishing factor between Jew and Gentile. A "New Law," in a sense, is given in the New Testament, which replaces the Law of Moses with an international agreement with all who choose to believe in Jesus as their salvation.

By accepting him as Lord, and by internalizing him through the Spirit, he becomes our Savior without discrimination between ethnicities and nationalities. The Law distinguished between these, and did not bring eternal life, as the New Covenant did.

 

[ChristisGod]

I don't know how you can call Jews and Gentiles the "Church" and not the "Body of Christ?" That seems to me like an impossible distinction?

I agree that the Body of Christ is formed in this present dispensation, which is following the Cross. So are you referring to the "Kingdom Saints" as those who believed Jesus and his disciples *before the Cross?*

If so, it may be that you can call them the "Church" to some degree, without them being the "Body of Christ" in the NT sense of having eternal salvation? It would be an interesting study to determine, biblically, how God's People are referred to before the Cross and after the Cross.

My thought is that before the Cross the emphasis is largely on Israel, with a few Gentile converts to Judaism. But after the Cross, the exclusivity of the nation of Israel is removed in reference to "God's People," and all nations are viewed as included in the NT Church, the Body of Christ.

The Law is no longer given as a distinguishing factor between Jew and Gentile. A "New Law," in a sense, is given in the New Testament, which replaces the Law of Moses with an international agreement with all who choose to believe in Jesus as their salvation.

By accepting him as Lord, and by internalizing him through the Spirit, he becomes our Savior without discrimination between ethnicities and nationalities. The Law distinguished between these, and did not bring eternal life, as the New Covenant did.

Its called the fallacy of a distinction without a difference.

You are 100% correct as they are one in the same, the Church is the body of Christ.

 

[Doug]

I don't know how you can call Jews and Gentiles the "Church" and not the "Body of Christ?" That seems to me like an impossible distinction?

Let me break your comments down and tackle one at a time.
There are three churches:
The church in the wilderness was the congregation of Israel under Moses Acts 7:38

The church of God made of Jew and Gentiles, kingdom saints, who believed the preaching of Jesus and the twelve. They believed on the name of Jesus and the gospel of the kingdom Matthew 4:23 John 20:31

The church of God, the body of Christ, the one new man made of believing Jew and Gentile who believed Paul's gospel 1 Corinthians 15:3-4

 

[Doug]

I agree that the Body of Christ is formed in this present dispensation, which is following the Cross. So are you referring to the "Kingdom Saints" as those who believed Jesus and his disciples *before the Cross?*

They were still preaching the kingdom and the name of Jesus after the cross. Their preaching gradually declined after Paul's conversion.

 

[Doug]

If so, it may be that you can call them the "Church" to some degree, without them being the "Body of Christ" in the NT sense of having eternal salvation? It would be an interesting study to determine, biblically, how God's People are referred to before the Cross and after the Cross.

Before the cross Israel was the church in the wilderness, the congregation of Israel Exodus 12:3 congregation of God 2 Chronicles 1:3

Before and after the cross the believers are the remnant of Israel, the church of God.

After the cross the church of God, the body of Christ was formed.

 

[Doug]

My thought is that before the Cross the emphasis is largely on Israel, with a few Gentile converts to Judaism. But after the Cross, the exclusivity of the nation of Israel is removed in reference to "God's People," and all nations are viewed as included in the NT Church, the Body of Christ.

Yes, all can be justified freely now by the redemption of Christ.

After this dispensation Israel will once again preach the gospel of the kingdom in the tribulation to the nations Mark 16:15-18, and teach the Gentiles in the kingdom Matthew 28:18-20

 

[ChristisGod]

They were still preaching the kingdom and the name of Jesus after the cross. Their preaching gradually declined after Paul's conversion.

Really ? Here is Paul at the end of His ministry below preaching the kingdom of God. He also taught it in his epistles and his last epistle in 2 Timothy.

Acts 28:
They arranged to meet Paul on a certain day, and came in even larger numbers to the place where he was staying. He witnessed to them from morning till evening, explaining about the kingdom of God, and from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets he tried to persuade them about Jesus. 24 Some were convinced by what he said, but others would not believe. 25 They disagreed among themselves and began to leave after Paul had made this final statement: “The Holy Spirit spoke the truth to your ancestors when he said through Isaiah the prophet:

26 “‘Go to this people and say,
“You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.”
27 For this people’s heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them.’

28 “Therefore I want you to know that God’s salvation has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will listen!” [29]

30 For two whole years Paul stayed there in his own rented house and welcomed all who came to see him. 31 He proclaimed the kingdom of God and taught about the Lord Jesus Christ—with all boldness and without hindrance!

 

[Doug]

The Law is no longer given as a distinguishing factor between Jew and Gentile. A "New Law," in a sense, is given in the New Testament, which replaces the Law of Moses with an international agreement with all who choose to believe in Jesus as their salvation.

By accepting him as Lord, and by internalizing him through the Spirit, he becomes our Savior without discrimination between ethnicities and nationalities. The Law distinguished between these, and did not bring eternal life, as the New Covenant did.

We are not under law but grace.

Our commandments are found in Paul's epistles.

The new testament was to redeem Israel's transgressions under the old testament Hebrews 9:15. Paul revealed the blood of the new testament has also been applied to the body of Christ.

The new covenant is made for Israel only. It will be established when the remnant of Israel enters the kingdom, God will cause them to keep his commandments Jeremiah 31:31-34 Ezekiel 36:24-28

 

[Randy Kluth]

They were still preaching the kingdom and the name of Jesus after the cross. Their preaching gradually declined after Paul's conversion.

This I don't understand? How can men and women preach Jesus' name and not be the "Body of Christ?"

 

[Randy Kluth]

Before the cross Israel was the church in the wilderness, the congregation of Israel Exodus 12:3 congregation of God 2 Chronicles 1:3

Before and after the cross the believers are the remnant of Israel, the church of God.

After the cross the church of God, the body of Christ was formed.

Yes, the body of Christ was formed from believers in Christ after the cross. How then can you distinguish "Kingdom Saints" who are not part of that Body?

 

[Doug]

Really ? Here is Paul at the end of His ministry below preaching the kingdom of God. He also taught it in his epistles and his last epistle in 2 Timothy.

Acts 28:
They arranged to meet Paul on a certain day, and came in even larger numbers to the place where he was staying. He witnessed to them from morning till evening, explaining about the kingdom of God, and from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets he tried to persuade them about Jesus. 24 Some were convinced by what he said, but others would not believe. 25 They disagreed among themselves and began to leave after Paul had made this final statement: “The Holy Spirit spoke the truth to your ancestors when he said through Isaiah the prophet:

26 “‘Go to this people and say,
“You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.”
27 For this people’s heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them.’

28 “Therefore I want you to know that God’s salvation has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will listen!” [29]

30 For two whole years Paul stayed there in his own rented house and welcomed all who came to see him. 31 He proclaimed the kingdom of God and taught about the Lord Jesus Christ—with all boldness and without hindrance!

Paul did not preach the earthly kingdom as Jesus and the twelve, he preached the heavenly kingdom 2 Timothy 4:18
The kingdom of God includes heaven and earth Matthew 28:18

 

[Randy Kluth]

We are not under law but grace.

Our commandments are found in Paul's epistles.

The new testament was to redeem Israel's transgressions under the old testament Hebrews 9:15. Paul revealed the blood of the new testament has also been applied to the body of Christ.

The new covenant is made for Israel only. It will be established when the remnant of Israel enters the kingdom, God will cause them to keep his commandments Jeremiah 31:31-34 Ezekiel 36:24-28

I believe Jesus made the New Covenant for all. Clearly, Paul gave the Communion ritual to Gentile believers, and not just Jewish believers.

Neither do I believe that the Church has to be made up of remnants. It can include entire nations. God promised Abraham the nation Israel, as well as a family of nations, based on his faith. The hope is not just to have remnants of nations, but entire nations.

I wasn't suggesting we are still under the Law. I was talking about the difference in terminology regarding God's People from OT to NT. Under the Law, they may be described as a "church," but certainly not in the NT sense, in which we are also described as the Body of Christ. I don't believe there can be any "Kingdom saints" today who are not also in the "Body of Christ!"

 

[ChristisGod]

Paul did not preach the earthly kingdom as Jesus and the twelve, he preached the heavenly kingdom 2 Timothy 4:18
The kingdom of God includes heaven and earth Matthew 28:18

Sorry there is only one Kingdom of God not two. Once again you are conflating things.

Jesus is the Kingdom of God revealed. What He taught is what the Apostles taught.

There is only One Kingdom of God just as there is only One God, Faith, Baptism, Lord, Gospel, Church etc.....

 

[Doug]

This I don't understand? How can men and women preach Jesus' name and not be the "Body of Christ?"

The body of Christ was not formed or made known before Paul Ephesians 3:2-6

 

[Doug]

Yes, the body of Christ was formed from believers in Christ after the cross. How then can you distinguish "Kingdom Saints" who are not part of that Body?

When the body of Christ was formed there was still kingdom saints congregating with them...alot of Paul's epistles are aimed to them

 

[Doug]

I believe Jesus made the New Covenant for all.

The new covenant is not the same as the new testament
The new covenant is yet future and for Israel
The new testament was the shed blood and resurrection for the transgressions of Israel...it required the death of the testator...it was revealed to Paul that the shed blood and resurrection was also for the church in this dispensation, the body of Christ

 

[Doug]

Sorry there is only one Kingdom of God not two. Once again you are conflating things.

Jesus is the Kingdom of God revealed. What He taught is what the Apostles taught.

There is only One Kingdom of God just as there is only One God, Faith, Baptism, Lord, Gospel, Church etc.....

Who would Jesus be talking to then in Matthew 5:5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
Who would inherit the earth?

 

[Randy Kluth]

The body of Christ was not formed or made known before Paul Ephesians 3:2-6

My thought is that Paul 1st came to *understand* what Christ had made a reality at the cross. It was *at the cross* that this mystery became a reality, and not necessarily when it was initially understood as such.

Paul was talking about something that happened earlier, with the death and resurrection of Christ, and is distinguishing that from his own revelation of what that meant.

The Body of Christ was born with Christ himself, when he died to produce the Church. It did not wait for Paul to understand it!

 

[Randy Kluth]

When the body of Christ was formed there was still kingdom saints congregating with them...alot of Paul's epistles are aimed to them

The distinction you're imagining between co-gatherings of "Kingdom Saints" and members of the "Body of Christ" is not delineated in biblical theology. In other words, it doesn't exist except in your own ideas.