Fear God or Presume acceptance

[stunnedbygrace]

Are you thinking this was the apostle's way of saying that he had his own righteousness or holiness, somehow apart from the gift of the grace of God?

No. He asked why they were looking at him as if it was his righteousness or his holiness that wrought the miracle they saw. So...how would one come to the conclusion that he did think it was of himself after he said that...? God wrought the miracle through him, that's all. He was walking IN the Spirit and so it was Gods righteousness and holiness, not his own. Gods holiness made manifest in the apostle.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

It's difficult to try to have this conversation because there are some things you haven't understood...firstly, that training in righteousness is not holiness. So...if God brings you into the plane, you are no longer being guided by the Holy Spirit but are walking IN the Holy Spirit. In that place, miracles happen. In that place, the power of God is manifested through a man, like the apostles healing the sick. And the apostle said, why do you gaze earnestly at us as if through our own righteousness or holiness this miracle has been wrought? (My paraphrase, I believe its maybe in Romans).

The goal is holiness, without which no one will see the Lord. And yet, though it is the goal and our hope, no man can work his way into it and only God can take him into the "plane."

Have you ever wondered why you've never performed a miracle? Have you ever yelled out inside, where is the God of Abraham??

So it is all about me and not about God

When I entered the plane, My trip to heaven was secured. Now I am a work in progress. and God is doing all kinds of stuff to grow me as his son. In a way in which I can bear fruit. But My trip to heaven is not affected.

As for miracles

I prayed once for a a friend who had two holes in her lungs, and was diagnosed with emphysema. She was given a few months maybe a year at most to love

our whole small group prayed for her. a MONTH later, whe went to get retested and the holes were gone, and the disease was eradicated. Even the doctros said it could only be a miracle and to praise her God

so please. You know what happens when you assume correct? Its not very smart..

 

[Nancy]

This is what wanky doctrine leads to. As if God cares not for our obedience. Of course obedience justifies us...in HIS sight. Not our own.

You have to take the focus off yourself to understand God's ways.

It is the one who DOES the word that is justified. The DOER. We will be judged by what we DO.

Obedience is BETTER than sacrifice. Even is Someone sacrifices for you. God can have mercy all day long...but if we never learn obedience we will be spit out of His mouth.

Ephesians 5:6
6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

Not to mention: "If you love me, keep my commands." = obedience.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

So it is all about me and not about God

When I entered the plane, My trip to heaven was secured. Now I am a work in progress. and God is doing all kinds of stuff to grow me as his son. In a way in which I can bear fruit. But My trip to heaven is not affected.

As for miracles

I prayed once for a a friend who had two holes in her lungs, and was diagnosed with emphysema. She was given a few months maybe a year at most to love

our whole small group prayed for her. a MONTH later, whe went to get retested and the holes were gone, and the disease was eradicated. Even the doctros said it could only be a miracle and to praise her God

so please. You know what happens when you assume correct? Its not very smart..

You prayed. That's not the same as if you touched her and healed her. One can only do that if they are in the plane.

And it sounds as if you are saying you wrought a miracle in rebuttal to me.

 

[CharismaticLady]

This is what wanky doctrine leads to. As if God cares not for our obedience. Of course obedience justifies us...in HIS sight. Not our own.

You have to take the focus off yourself to understand God's ways.

It is the one who DOES the word that is justified. The DOER. We will be judged by what we DO.

Obedience is BETTER than sacrifice. Even is Someone sacrifices for you. God can have mercy all day long...but if we never learn obedience we will be spit out of His mouth.

Ephesians 5:6
6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

I thought that is what he meant too. But he just wasn't very clear. He meant in order to come to Christ and be cleansed, not after. He agrees the children of God are obedient.

@marks

 

[CharismaticLady]

Given that these two verses each say something that directly conflicts with the other, how do you explain that? If not for the reason I've given?

There is no conflict.

 

[marks]

I thought that is what he meant too. But he just wasn't very clear. He meant in order to come to Christ and be cleansed, not after. He agrees the children of God are obedient.

@marks

Actually, cleansed isn't really the word I'd use for what I'm saying.

We are justified, which includes being cleansed of sin, and also includes being born from God, and that new creature whom we are has nothing to do with sin of any kind.

Much love!

 

[CharismaticLady]

Or rebirth is lost back into death, is that correct? Or are we talking about finding out after death that you are rejected?

You know who you hate. How many times do you have to murder people to realize you are a murderer?

 

[marks]

No. He asked why they were looking at him as if it was his righteousness or his holiness that wrought the miracle they saw. So...how would one come to the conclusion that he did think it was of himself after he said that...? God wrought the miracle through him, that's all. He was walking IN the Spirit and so it was Gods righteousness and holiness, not his own. Gods holiness made manifest in the apostle.

Thank you for your clarification!

 

[CharismaticLady]

Actually, cleansed isn't really the word I'd use for what I'm saying.

We are justified, which includes being cleansed of sin, and also includes being born from God, and that new creature whom we are has nothing to do with sin of any kind.

Much love!

I agree, but you weren't clear that you were not talking ever - before or after.

 

[marks]

You know who you hate. How many times do you have to murder people to realize you are a murderer?

I'm not sure what you are saying.

Some think that they will only find out after they die if God accepts them or not, and that their entire life they hope they make it, but don't know for sure. Some think that there can come a time in this life when God rejects them, that new life going away, and they return to an unsaved life, or an empty life where they think they are saved but are not.

I'm trying to better understand how you see it happening, God forbid, that one of His children were remain unforgiving of someone.

Much love!

 

[CharismaticLady]

Forgiving others as God in Christ has forgiven you.

How has God forgiven you? If conditionally, then I suppose that's how we are to forgive others? That doesn't seem right to me.

Besides, Matthew shows Jesus teaching that the listener wouldn't even be forgiven if they didn't forgive others. So their forgiveness of others has to come BEFORE they are forgiven by God. So if God is waiting for us to forgive others before He forgives us, then we aren't forgiving as we've been forgiven.

Do you see the connundrum now?

Yet if Jesus' teaching is showing the requirement of the Law, while Paul is teaching what the New Covenant is, then the reason for the difference is easy to understand.

Much love!

PS . . . Yes, we should forgive others. Actually, I'd rather say, unforgiveness is sin, and comes from the flesh. Why, even the feeling of offense, when someone violates God's Law and we feel violated and set ourselves over someone, that we feel we must forgive them, I think that comes from the flesh also.

Belittling others, trying to make them sound ridiculous (I've been guilty of that!), trying to make them sound like they are saying something they aren't, and then holding that against someone, all these, flesh, flesh, flesh. Sin. All of it. Because it comes from flesh.

In reality, the forgiveness that comes from the spirit is to be suffer long, hope for the best, never really taking offense to begin with, just committing to love others. That's all that matters anyway, faith expressing itself through love.

After you've been forgiven and go along walking in the Spirit. You've been justified; you've been sanctified; but then you DO take offense at something someone said and you hold a grudge. You don't forgive them. What then?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

We are justified, which includes being cleansed of sin, and also includes being born from God, and that new creature whom we are has nothing to do with sin of any kind.

What does cleansed of sin mean? Does it mean forgiven?

 

[marks]

After you've been forgiven and go along walking in the Spirit. You've been justified; you've been sanctified; but then you DO take offense at something someone said and you hold a grudge. You don't forgive them. What then?

That's what I'm asking you.

For myself, my answer, God will chasten where needed, and His chastening is effective.

Much love!

 

[marks]

What does cleansed of sin mean? Does it mean forgiven?

To me, it means pretty much what the word sounds like, cleansed. No more sin on me. Clean. No stain, no stink, gone.

 

[CharismaticLady]

I'm not sure what you are saying.

Some think that they will only find out after they die if God accepts them or not, and that their entire life they hope they make it, but don't know for sure. Some think that there can come a time in this life when God rejects them, that new life going away, and they return to an unsaved life, or an empty life where they think they are saved but are not.

I'm trying to better understand how you see it happening, God forbid, that one of His children were remain unforgiving of someone.

Much love!

Philippians 2:
12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

14 Do all things without complaining and disputing, 15 that you may become blameless and harmless, children of God without fault in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world, 16 holding fast the word of life, so that I may rejoice in the day of Christ that I have not run in vain or labored in vain.

2 Corinthians 13:5

Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified.


marks, is it that you believe in once saved, always saved? Maybe that is what is different between us. Or do you believe that a child of God wouldn't do those things in the first place so they NEVER were a child of God from the beginning? How do anyone know and are assured now if they don't know what they will do in the future?

 

[CharismaticLady]

That's what I'm asking you.

For myself, my answer, God will chasten where needed, and His chastening is effective.

Much love!

Yes, but we must be obedient to that chastening and forgive if that is what is needed.

Hebrews 12:
14 Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord: 15 looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up cause trouble, and by this many become defiled; 16 lest there be any fornicator or profane person like Esau, who for one morsel of food sold his birthright. 17 For you know that afterward, when he wanted to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought it diligently with tears.

Hebrews 10:26-39
26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

32 But recall the former days in which, after you were illuminated, you endured a great struggle with sufferings: 33 partly while you were made a spectacle both by reproaches and tribulations, and partly while you became companions of those who were so treated; 34 for you had compassion on me in my chains, and joyfully accepted the plundering of your goods, knowing that you have a better and an enduring possession for yourselves in heaven. 35 Therefore do not cast away your confidence, which has great reward. 36 For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise:

37 “For yet a little while,
And He who is coming will come and will not tarry.
38 Now the just shall live by faith;
But if anyone draws back,
My soul has no pleasure in him.”

39 But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You prayed. That's not the same as if you touched her and healed her. One can only do that if they are in the plane.

And it sounds as if you are saying you wrought a miracle in rebuttal to me.

lol

What I hear is you judging me

Who made you judge?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I have never heard of someone not having God because they said a prayer and God answered the prayer in a miraculous way.

 

[CharismaticLady]

That's what I'm asking you.

For myself, my answer, God will chasten where needed, and His chastening is effective.

Much love!

My answer is what we seem to disagree about. I want to know if we do agree, or don't.

I believe Matthew 6:14-15 which you seem to think no longer applies to us, if I'm not mistaken, because you don't agree as I do that both verses apply to us (from posts awhile back).