Fear God or Presume acceptance

[Helen]

2 Corinthians 11
3 "But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ."

 

[Episkopos]

This "level of walk" is not one I have heard about from anyone, literally, other than you.
This is a problem, because unless you represent the body of Christ in totality, you cannot be speaking the truth.

It is true that the high calling in Christ is no longer preached in the modern churches. But that's because the people don't want to hear about it. I understand that if you speak too much truth to a hurting people...who have been promised an easy salvation through a very wide gate that suits them...they may become discouraged and give up if things get too "spiritual" and difficult sounding. But it still doesn't change the bible. Paul was only interested in the high calling. So we can speak of fraternal love, patience with people, understanding the weaknesses of the flesh etc...but I draw the line at misinterpreting the bible to serve the flesh. To make people happy with the power of the flesh. We are to walk as Jesus walked...in His resurrection power and life. That is not YOUR experience. But your experience doesn't negate the higher walk. It makes you an adversary of the cross if you persist. One has to get out of the way...crucified with Christ in His death...so that His life is made manifest in these bodies. We have this treasure in earthen vessels.

"entering into the truth in reality and power"

I do not want to be sarcastic, but is your sharing here the reality of entering into reality and power?
If one is claiming a real experience all believers could experience, literally the meaning of maturity in Christ, where are these folk in history and in scripture? And if after sharing for a period, this experience is not shared by many, it might be a clue that whatever this is, it is something related to your group alone.

Walking in the Spirit is not about maturity in Christ...it is purity in holiness given as grace to the one who believes INTO Christ. It is a miracle. Do you believe in miracles? Do you believe that with Christ ALL things are possible?

But many testify of this walk in holiness. Just not so much recently. So it depends how you are feeding yourself. And the bible is full of the testimony of they who has visited heaven and walked in His power. Have you not read the bible? Do you know what being translated into the kingdom entails? A philosophy? Or a grace from God?

Do you believe any of the biblical accounts of supernatural power? Do you believe that Enoch was taken up...translated bodily into heaven? Really?

If you believe any of this then you are not being honest at all in discounting a witness to the same power of God...the power...grace...to walk in His life...in His holiness. Why do you hate holiness? Cain also hated Abel....just like this.

If this is a heavenly experience, what happens if a believer does not gain this higher plain? Are they now not saved or just the lower level believer who has not been elevated?

We will not be judged easier for a closer connection to God...but harder. My judgment will be harder. So I fear more. And God gives gifts to men to share with the faithful...to give direction...of whom you are not being apart of right now. You are on the other side. So while you seek to judge me for what God has done...you are judging yourself.

No wonder that anyone who shares the deeper things will be attacked...and discredited. THAT's why the church is run by religious posers and they who deny the power of God.

What for me puts this into true apostolic context is this phrase

27 Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world
James 1:27

James did not talk about this other plain of reality, or being in the Spirit is our purpose and focus. Rather love in action in society.
Unfortunately in my whole time in the church these visionaries come and go, and each one has a different version of what is the difference, but actually coming to terms with love and sharing is stepped over, because it is impossible without the Holy Spirit. God bless you

What this reminds me of is the film Inception, and people finding living in the dream is more real than real life.

There are many proximities to following Christ and all of them have merit. But there is also a walk IN HIM. That is the high calling that Paul spoke of. That was the passion of Paul. His prayer and desire. But there are not many ever that aspire to that walk. I have been called there by God for some reason...not that I feel up to it or worthy of it. I have a very hard time with it. And I certainly don't look to modern style indoctrinated believers for help or consolation. I am alone with God...as all who are called higher will be. Yet I think there are more that also have that calling...but refuse it. They disbelieve God and His grace...and His will.

I just have this funny notion of a church that walks together in His love and His life so as to be a revolutionary witness of the kingdom life on earth.

But you can remain in the status quo...which you obviously have settled on and love. We tend to grow to the limits of our habitat. maybe you need to see the vastness of the life in the kingdom to break out of your shell.

 

[FollowHim]

But you can remain in the status quo...which you obviously have settled on and love. We tend to grow to the limits of our habitat. maybe you need to see the vastness of the life in the kingdom to break out of your shell.

This is where we differ. I have my walk with Christ, I do not refer to others, or know how they are walking.
So I have my own state, nothing more.

Long ago I stopped concerning myself about how others were before the Lord, just encouraging them to find more.
And whatever you are offering that is "new", it has to have some means of communication.

Just saying there is a higher plain, and seek the Lord for it, is a message, which is true in all our walk.
The charismatic revival was this heavenly plain, as has been all revivals in history.

But life is lived day to day, so unless these folk bring this reality into the everyday, soon it evaporates.
I read an article written in Norway 1920's about a revival and what happened to the people. Very excited, but 10 or 15 years later gone.

It reminds me of a brother who prays each sunday, Holy Spirit come and make your presence real. He gets very excited about this. What he has not yet grasped is God is there with the Holy Spirit and is working, but he is looking at the wrong things.

I know another brother who wants a ministry, except he is not a pastor, and gets very excited, but finds it hard to communicate this meaningfully to others. When problems come, he will just drop people, and not talk things through, or be a consistent friend. Can you imagine if a real crisis took place, the result would not be too good. So I am learning the real walk with Jesus is thorough and consistent, and that is enough. God bless you.

 

[Episkopos]

This is where we differ. I have my walk with Christ, I do not refer to others, or know how they are walking.
So I have my own state, nothing more.

Long ago I stopped concerning myself about how others were before the Lord, just encouraging them to find more.
And whatever you are offering that is "new", it has to have some means of communication.

Just saying there is a higher plain, and seek the Lord for it, is a message, which is true in all our walk.
The charismatic revival was this heavenly plain, as has been all revivals in history.

But life is lived day to day, so unless these folk bring this reality into the everyday, soon it evaporates.
I read an article written in Norway 1920's about a revival and what happened to the people. Very excited, but 10 or 15 years later gone.

It reminds me of a brother who prays each sunday, Holy Spirit come and make your presence real. He gets very excited about this. What he has not yet grasped is God is there with the Holy Spirit and is working, but he is looking at the wrong things.

I know another brother who wants a ministry, except he is not a pastor, and gets very excited, but finds it hard to communicate this meaningfully to others. When problems come, he will just drop people, and not talk things through, or be a consistent friend. Can you imagine if a real crisis took place, the result would not be too good. So I am learning the real walk with Jesus is thorough and consistent, and that is enough. God bless you.

If you could see that one is not against the other. But they work together. The revivals are necessary. The walking out part between the revivals are also necessary. Like breathing in and out. They bring new life and new character. Without the revivals people aim too low...too humanistic and selfish. Without the desert walks in between we become too spoiled....we remain immature in our character.

So then the full walk is a time with God and then a time to walk out by faith seeking God and His direction. There is a time for every purpose under the sun...especially in the culmination of all things for the purpose of preparing sons of the kingdom.

We are to go in and out of the Spirit until one day...we shall go no more out...because eternity is in that revival state.

Rev. 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

A walk without revival is not something to be satisfied with...we are to seek the Lord and His kingdom...first. We are to walk in Zion to be written in Zion so that He knows us and we know Him where He abides.

 

[FollowHim]

If you could see that one is not against the other. But they work together. The revivals are necessary. The walking out part between the revivals are also necessary. Like breathing in and out. They bring new life and new character. Without the revivals people aim too low...too humanistic and selfish. Without the desert walks in between we become too spoiled....we remain immature in our character.

So then the full walk is a time with God and then a time to walk out by faith seeking God and His direction. There is a time for every purpose under the sun...especially in the culmination of all things for the purpose of preparing sons of the kingdom.

We are to go in and out of the Spirit until one day...we shall go no more out...because eternity is in that revival state.

Rev. 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

A walk without revival is not something to be satisfied with...we are to seek the Lord and His kingdom...first. We are to walk in Zion to be written in Zion so that He knows us and we know Him where He abides.

Revival is an interesting term. It often relates to Wesleyian holiness movements, or mass repentance and seeking Gods favour and mercy.
I have seen people respond when they see their own sin and selfishness and how Christ offers love and acceptance with a focus on others and service, where relationships and communion in Christ matter above anything else.

Others now define revival as just getting people into a building and through some ceremonies to acknowledge Jesus but little else.
What seems obvious, is many in our individualistic culture know loneliness and a lack of value, rather than sinfulness. Often people are very moral but distant, and hedonism predominates, where the phrase is "Do not judge me".

But what they are saying is actually they are a slave to sinful anti social behaviour, and deny their is any resolution or even that it is wrong because it is common to all humans. Such is the power and corruption of pornography, sexual boundaries are not even thought of as being valid. But what you see is massive mental illness, insecurity and sexual behaviour that is getting more violent and abusive and totally selfish. Not so much a shared experience as a drug high for the partaker. The sub-text is sex is for pleasure for its own sake, ignoring sex is totally about children and bonding a couple closely enough to bring them up at massive personal cost to themselves, even their own lives.

Unfortunately the propoganda for sexual liberation has indoctrinated a whole generation with the idea where even gender is a social construct and female dominated societies exist, and we live in a male dominated dictatorship which is evil. I would comment all this is an invention, and biologically without foundation. Until this generation, men lived a brutal short life often dying violently, and women bore children to keep society going and often died in child birth. Because of our poverty, there was not other choice. Choice has not changed lifes reality, but the voice is speaking without restraint and a great deal of anger and resentment.

So our very issues in Christ are being questioned like never before, and the attempt is to create another faith within society with its own reference points and beliefs which is totally antagonistic to the cross. God bless you

 

[marks]

We are to walk as Jesus walked...in His resurrection power and life. That is not YOUR experience. But your experience doesn't negate the higher walk.

This part . . .

Can you elaborate what this looks like?

Much love!

 

[Episkopos]

This part . . .

Can you elaborate what this looks like?

Much love!

It is to walk in that other realm where everything is in the light. There is an eternal and timeless joy there. This is the kingdom walk in the presence of God in holiness. From there is no sin at all...it is complete purity and beauty. In the Spirit we experience the peace of Zion. So the power is on us to walk as Jesus walked...in His love. I would be heavily criticized to explain in more detail.

 

[marks]

It is to walk in that other realm where everything is in the light. There is an eternal and timeless joy there. This is the kingdom walk in the presence of God in holiness. From there is no sin at all...it is complete purity and beauty. In the Spirit we experience the peace of Zion. So the power is on us to walk as Jesus walked...in His love. I would be heavily criticized to explain in more detail.

What about relating it to the Scriptures of Jesus? Certainly no one could criticize from that? What in the Gospels show us Jesus' walk?

And I think the Psalms also show much about Jesus' life in this world.

I'm wishing I could stick around longer!

One thing I'd comment is to experience the peace that comes in being so loved!

Much love!

 

[Episkopos]

What about relating it to the Scriptures of Jesus? Certainly no one could criticize from that? What in the Gospels show us Jesus' walk?

And I think the Psalms also show much about Jesus' life in this world.

I'm wishing I could stick around longer!

One thing I'd comment is to experience the peace that comes in being so loved!

Much love!

Where I am you shall also be.

 

[FollowHim]

It is to walk in that other realm where everything is in the light. There is an eternal and timeless joy there. This is the kingdom walk in the presence of God in holiness. From there is no sin at all...it is complete purity and beauty. In the Spirit we experience the peace of Zion. So the power is on us to walk as Jesus walked...in His love. I would be heavily criticized to explain in more detail.

Unfortunately this sounds like an LSD trip. One has to get real. Everyone can create a world in their own mind and feel ecstatic emotions.

As creatures we reward ourselves with dopamine for certain behaviours. The line between sanity and illusion is seeing the real world.

Excitable folk create this world. I have watched Spirit led folk behave in a drunken state, and talk about the power etc. But it becomes like a drug addict wanting this high, without content. Life in Christ and maturity is so much more than this.

Christ in the transfiguration talked, shared, spoke. No ecstatic dwelling etc. just reality and power shown. God is very practical, speaks truth onto a situation like this.

Holiness, maturity in Christ is here now but the blind do not see. Love is tough, it speaks of wholeness and victory not otherness and the ecstatic. God bless you

 

[FollowHim]

I do not say someone is not walking like Jesus unless it is clear.

John was clear, we need to walk like Jesus

James said in looking after the needy. If this meant a different plain or miracle working healing they would have said this. Love is bending down and helping people to stand up. God bless you

 

[charity]

@Episkopos

It's come up a couple of times that we may use some words differently, so I thought explain what I mean when I use them.

When I speak of Justification,

this is a two-fold work accomplished through Christ's death, in which we are joined with Him in death and burial and resurrection. I am born from God a new creation, which means that I'm no longer in the line of Adam, of condemned humanity, now born of God. The man born from Adam, the "old man", will still share the death promised to Adam, but in Christ I now share the eternal life promised to Christ.

The guilt of sin and corruption remains on the child of Adam. The child of God is created in holiness and righteousness.

Since the corruption of sin remains with the child of Adam, the man of flesh, the new creation, the spirit child of God, is completely free from sin, having been separated from it by death, to live a new life in Christ.

In saying "put off the old man" and "put on the new man", "kill your body parts that are on the earth", this is telling us to overcome the desires of the flesh by trusting God for the promised freedom.

Rebirth is forever, as our justification is based entirely on Jesus, and His obedience, not our own. Jesus Christ is the same always.

I love the quote from Malachi . . . I the LORD change not, therefore, you, O Jacob, are not consumed!

What does justification mean to you?

Much love!

Hello @marks,

It is so good to see the manner of approach that you are using to get alongside Episkopos. To prevent any misunderstanding, and establish a basis of mutual understanding, in order to discuss the issues being raised.

You speak of our identification with Christ in His death and resurrection, found in Romans 5:12-8:39, and I praise God for that. Putting off the old man and putting on the new man: reckoning ourselves to be dead indeed unto sin but alive unto God (Romans 6:11), is all on the pages of Scripture.(Romans 6:6; Ephesians 4:22; Colossians 3:9)

I don't know that I would have used this to explain justification itself, but it is none the less solid truth.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[FollowHim]

To make people happy with the power of the flesh. We are to walk as Jesus walked...in His resurrection power and life. That is not YOUR experience.

On any level this is a judgement, that cuts me to the heart, except you are not Jesus and you appear to have no content.
I do not have your experience that seems to justify your higher walk and higher realisation, and higher judgement.

Now how did John describe our walk in Christ

3 We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands.
4 The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him:
6 Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.
1 John 2:3-6

9 Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates his brother is still in the darkness.
10 Whoever loves his brother lives in the light, and there is nothing in him to make him stumble.
1 John 2:9-10

What for John is walking like Jesus, loving his brother in Christ. What is not knowing God, is not doing what he commands.
Now how deep does John go in this revelation, "nothing in him to make him stumble"

So if we walk in love towards our brothers and sisters in Christ, then we know God, the Lord of all.
So we must be very careful how we call others dead, lost, empty, without value, without God.
In truth only the believer themselves knows their walk with God. And Paul says this about judging other believers

3 I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself.
4 My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me.
5 Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men's hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God.
1 Cor 4:3-5

So when a brother comes with a cup of poison to poison the testimony of other brothers and sisters in Christ, I must just refuse to agree. We are here to be a light, to share the transforming reality of knowing Jesus and His love alive in our hearts, that takes hurts and turns them into praise for His saving of our souls. All issues, no matter how grand or serious, are solved before the throne of grace, which is His love flowing in response to repentance, a contrite and humble heart.

We in ourselves can never stand as self justified, we are mere servants of the King who is worthy to be praised, Amen

 

[FollowHim]

Going to bible school

Someone once summarised this in this way
"Why should I go to hear and learn about theories of being in Christ from people who like to think about it but never experience it what I have experienced it?"

Now it is true that maybe ones experience is unique, superior, a blessing to share with the body of Christ, which is God given and something that will help, born of the Holy Spirit. Or it could be delusion, an experience though uplifting adds nothing to the walk or the cannon of authority or is even in agreement with scripture and may actually be heretical. Paul faced this dilemma but this was his response

1 Fourteen years later I went up again to Jerusalem, this time with Barnabas. I took Titus along also.
2 I went in response to a revelation and set before them the gospel that I preach among the Gentiles. But I did this privately to those who seemed to be leaders, for fear that I was running or had run my race in vain.
Gal 2:1-2

Now it truly humbles me to realise Paul felt unsure of his gospel after 14 years, and wanted confirmation from the body of Christ. If it takes this long for such a man of God to be in doubt, we should be very careful if we deviate from normal views of theology held by the body of Christ, because the chances are we have become heretical, or we are unaware of moves of God in many parts of the body throughout its history.

And after looking at many movements in church history, there is nothing new under the sun. Every year there is a revelation from heaven, a vision, a new status lost for 2,000 years, a new cannon of scripture, a new dispensation, a new prophet who is the mouth of God, who will lead people to victory, until they actually drop dead. We all want to be the mouth piece of God, except most prophets live quite a short life, because man does not like to hear their message.

Jesus died, all the apostles died speaking the truth to power. If God is calling you, Amen, but this road is the road of sacrifice and pain, not to be taken lightly, but is also a blessed and glorious privilege. God bless you

 

[Episkopos]

Unfortunately this sounds like an LSD trip. One has to get real. Everyone can create a world in their own mind and feel ecstatic emotions.

As creatures we reward ourselves with dopamine for certain behaviours. The line between sanity and illusion is seeing the real world.

Excitable folk create this world. I have watched Spirit led folk behave in a drunken state, and talk about the power etc. But it becomes like a drug addict wanting this high, without content. Life in Christ and maturity is so much more than this.

Christ in the transfiguration talked, shared, spoke. No ecstatic dwelling etc. just reality and power shown. God is very practical, speaks truth onto a situation like this.

Holiness, maturity in Christ is here now but the blind do not see. Love is tough, it speaks of wholeness and victory not otherness and the ecstatic. God bless you

Leave more room for God.

 

[Episkopos]

Hello @marks,

It is so good to see the manner of approach that you are using to get alongside Episkopos. To prevent any misunderstanding, and establish a basis of mutual understanding, in order to discuss the issues being raised.

You speak of our identification with Christ in His death and resurrection, found in Romans 5:12-8:39, and I praise God for that. Putting off the old man and putting on the new man: reckoning ourselves to be dead indeed unto sin but alive unto God (Romans 6:11), is all on the pages of Scripture.(Romans 6:6; Ephesians 4:2; Colossians 3:9)

I don't know that I would have used this to explain justification itself, but it is none the less solid truth.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

People have debated justification for millenia.

It comes down to this...God justifies whom he sees fit to. So a person may worry over that...but it is God who justifies. No one knows who has been finally received or cut off. So we are all in the same race.

Then there is the EXPERIENCE of justification. God gives His Spirit to they whom He is preparing to run the race of faith. Of course there is NO final justification in this life for a life not lived out. (Doctrinal aberrations notwithstanding)

How do we know we have a CONTINUAL justification?

Rom. 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

It's all about the life...the resurrection life that we can walk in now to know His pleasure.

We walk by faith. And that means we trust God with the result of His judgments. He sees fit or not to translate a believer into His kingdom...or we remain in the wilderness with nothing but our faith in God to sustain us. So is that faith towards our thinking we are saved? No that is selfish. Our faith is in God not our own status. You don't move mountains (or God) by having an assumed place in heaven by a religious belief. We can do nothing of ourselves. We can know nothing of ourselves.

Only God can justify. All other assurances are self-righteous assumptions.

But people hate that way. :) They want religious guarantees or they won't do anything. But that's not faith.

 

[mjrhealth]

Leave more room for God.

And when you have given Him everything, than what.

And yet many have already being judged, dead in Christ raised up into the newness of His life, who will not taste the judgment and second death, yet cannot claim to walk as you do. I guess that is why Jesus said. My Grace is sufficient for you", If His grace is not enough than nothing will ever be.

 

[mjrhealth]

But people hate that way. :) They want religious guarantees or they won't do anything. But that's not faith.

Religious Guarantees, "it is Finished" Jesus said, yet faith seems to be not enough, how dare one trust God, either His promises are true or they are not.

 

[Episkopos]

I do not say someone is not walking like Jesus unless it is clear.

John was clear, we need to walk like Jesus

James said in looking after the needy. If this meant a different plain or miracle working healing they would have said this. Love is bending down and helping people to stand up. God bless you

But you must realize that Jesus was more than a social worker with His heart in the right place. You are still trying to pit righteousness against holiness. You are arguing a part of the truth against it's more profound complimentary part. And this is due to your experience of fraudulent behaviour on the part of they who want very much to be seen as ministers of God.

Because of lawlessness the love of many will wax cold.

So don't negate a higher love connection for the more basic and human approach to love others as ourselves.

James was Jewish through and through. He championed righteousness and the love of the other.

But there is another commandment...a higher calling. To love God will everything we have and are. Do we love a chimera? Do we love Someone unknowable if not for the poor and needy?

Jesus didn't come to make the world better in a social sense. He came to reconcile us to God in relationship. He came to invite us to see where He lives. And we are to receive Him as little children...not as concerned politicians or analysts.

The disciples asked Jesus...where do you live? And in the most profound of statements Jesus replied.....come and see!

 

[Episkopos]

And when you have given Him everything, than what.

And yet many have already being judged, dead in Christ raised up into the newness of His life, who will not taste the judgment and second death, yet cannot claim to walk as you do. I guess that is why Jesus said. My Grace is sufficient for you", If His grace is not enough than nothing will ever be.

His grace is sufficient for us to do what HE wants us to do...not for us to feel saved without having run the race. In that case our imagination is sufficient.

The Lord's grace is sufficient to fulfill the commands of Jesus to 'Love as I have loved" And the scandalous "Be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect."