Fear God or Presume acceptance

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marks

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Is it a misunderstanding?

If what they teach is sinless (and from what I see many here see this is what they teach)

yet they will not admit if they live up to their own demand.

is it not being deceptive?

Hi EG,

I'm not the one to say. Jesus, not man, knows the heart.

What I do know is that what I've seen displayed tells me that none of us have reached a state of moral perfection yet. Regardless of what people may or may not claim for themself, or what someone wants us to think about them.

But at the end of it all, for me, it's in Paul's words,

1 Corinthians 4
3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.
4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.
5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God

Paul says here he knows nothing against himself. A.T. Robertson puts it this way, "for guilty knowledge against oneself".

But even so he doesn't consider himself justified just because he doesn't know anything against himself. He acknowledges that only Jesus is a fit judge, because He is the one who will reveal what is hidden, and will make known what is truly in our hearts. There are no secrets from God, though men have secrets from each other, and from themselves.

So were someone to tell us that they do, or have lived sinlessly, I find that to be quite against Scripture. In truth, none of us are qualified to say.

So this teaching of sinlessness in the Christian completely removes any certainty of salvation, and so far as anyone is concerned, they should have no expectation of salvation. Anyone who understands the Scriptures, and is honest with themself realizes that of necessity, they would need to wait until after death to find out of God will accept them, and, as we know we stand guilty before Him, simply hope for His mercy.

And yet Scripture is replete with passages that tell us about the life God has brought us into, and the certainty of our hope.

Our hope is the expected outcome of our faith according to God's promise. Attack the salvation and you attack the hope. Attack the hope and you are attacking the faith.

The faith is in one of two sources.

Either you are trusting in Christ to bring you safely to Him in glorious eternal life, or you are trusting in yourself to bring yourself through to glory.

That's it, no third option.

There is no, Him + me. Trust in Christ + trust in myself? Sure! Only as good as the weakest link.

So those who demand of you that your life show perfect sinlessness, according to them I guess, or according to yourself, are not calling you to a higher standard, not calling you to glory, they call you to glory in your flesh, and not in Christ.

They call you to work the works of approval and acceptance, denying our acceptance in Christ.

And those who teach sinlessness in the True Christian must of themselves admit to not knowing whether their relationship with God, their walk with Him is true or not, or otherwise go straightly against clear Scripture.

But my faith is in Him and not in myself, so none of this is ever in question. The life purely in faith is pleasing to God.

There was a time when God gave me a walk in that faith for a portion of time. While there was no consciousness of sin, yet how can I say that? But this was only a step in the learning of how to walk in this faith at all times that we simply trust Him for what He has done, and continues to do in us.

"A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth."

I think the abundant life in Christ is found in our acceptance by God in Him. Christ has removed every obstacle and broken every chain, and be it to us according to our faith.

So should we base our faith on our assessment of our works, plus or minus a little denial? Or base our faith on Jesus? Because I've earned it? Or because He purchased my life for me.

I trust in Jesus.

Much love!
 
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Joseph77

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You want to meet Gods standard. You better be perfect (from birth)
This is patently false. i.e. contrary to all God and Jesus and Scripture say.


Show from Scripture what you mean, if possible. Even with 'context' in your post, if the idea changes with context. (that can happen)

In all Scripture, it is never written that you must be perfect from birth.

Thus, at least by itself, that is a false statement.

(except for/ about Jesus Himself - Jesus always perfect)
 

Joseph77

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No, I grieve each time. More for those who might be reading/ deceived by false posts, but also for the origin of false ideas.

I love the truth as God Reveals in Scripture, and by His Spirit always in line and perfect Harmony with all Scripture.

Scripture is the Standard, the Truth, and there is not another one (found in man's teachings).

Well you love to keep telling me I am wrong,
 

Eternally Grateful

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IT is as if you posted watermelons are purple with pink stripes and yellow squares.

There is no argument from Scripture there, nor from Scripture to reply to it. When anyone makes a patently false statement, without any Scripture for support or for origin of the idea,
that's how it is for any one.

i.e. nothing from Scripture. If actually post something from Scripture, that would be good, right?
So you can't prove me wrong
As for scripture.

I quotes Moses in Deuteronomy 27: 26 Confirm and obey every word, otherwise curse
I referenced Paul in gal 3: 10 Cursed is the one who does not obey every word
I referenced James in James 2: 10 _If I keep whole law yet stumble in one point
I referenced Jesus in Luke 18: 19 (no one is good But God)
I referenced Romans 6: 23 the wage of sin is death
I quoted Romans 3: 23 for ALL have sinned and fall short of Gods standard.
And I referenced the fall of mankind based on one sin,,

I mean seriously.. you say I did not reference scripture?

[removed]
 

Eternally Grateful

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well that was a post before,, You should say which post. I looked at the post you said, and saw no quote from peter.

I did not twist his words, It is what he was talking about.

Whether you agree or not. That's not on me..

Now again,

Are you going to sit there and say you have committed any sin before the death of Christ? or will you admit, Every sin you ever committed or will commit was future when Jesus died?
 

Eternally Grateful

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Since your reading comprehension is so poor...I will repeat the same answer again...for the sake of they who are reading this thread and have some reading comprehension. (although they will have already understood what I have said)
Well thank you

Thanks for proving you do not live up to your own standard.

Good day sir.
 

Eternally Grateful

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A crucial thing to understand is that spiritual people go in and out of the Spirit. So then perfection is experienced in this way. We stay in the Spirit as long as our spiritual maturity holds up against, temptation, the wiles of the devil etc...

What is normal for a spiritual person is that he remains in the Spirit for longer and longer periods of time as maturity is gained...until a person no longer leaves the Spirit at all. THAT is the full stature of Christ.

But most modern believers have never experienced the abundant grace of God ....whereby supernatural power rests on the one believing. THAT is what grace is about. But that is why so many fight against the grace of God...even while claiming to be under a (false) grace that is without power.
it is a crucial thing to understand

That if you go in and out of the spirit because of sin, Your PROVE you continue to require grace.

Because you have not yet met the standard that God requires.
 

Joseph77

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Prove what wrong? What statement ?
When you quote Scripture in context or out of context, Scripture remains true.
If someone does not post an idea, there's nothing proven, and nothing to respond to.
Several other posters and myself did prove or state clearly the ideas that were wrong (like the ones about Jacob, as well as others), but without any Scripture link at the time from you, we are still waiting.

Then the opposite situation here: You post several Scripture, but what is your idea that was stated to be wrong ?

So you can't prove me wrong
As for scripture.

I quotes Moses in Deuteronomy 27: 26 Confirm and obey every word, otherwise curse
I referenced Paul in gal 3: 10 Cursed is the one who does not obey every word
I referenced James in James 2: 10 _If I keep whole law yet stumble in one point
I referenced Jesus in Luke 18: 19 (no one is good But God)
I referenced Romans 6: 23 the wage of sin is death
I quoted Romans 3: 23 for ALL have sinned and fall short of Gods standard.
And I referenced the fall of mankind based on one sin,,
 

Eternally Grateful

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What is to marvel at is...they who cannot or will not understand the gospel...are really not meant to perceive it. At one point we must accept that it is God who softens and hardens hearts. He looks at our attitude. If we must pass everything through our minds first...He will not reveal Himself to these.

So we must receive the things of God as a child would. And a child doesn't limit God the way we see people doing all around us.
This is suggested when Jesus said blessed are the poor in spirit because THEIRS is the kingdom of God

If we do not come to God spiritually bankrupt (the literal defenition of the greek word translated poor) . we will never experience the kingdom.
 

Eternally Grateful

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Show from Scripture what you mean, if possible. Even with 'context' in your post, if the idea changes with context. (that can happen)

In all Scripture, it is never written that you must be perfect from birth.

Thus, at least by itself, that is a false statement.

(except for/ about Jesus Himself - Jesus always perfect)
I did. Twice now..

But just like with Esau and Jacob, You can not see it.

Thats not on me to do bro..

you can either

take what I read and show me how I was wrong in context with the passages I used

Move on.

[removed]
 

Eternally Grateful

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No, I grieve each time. More for those who might be reading/ deceived by false posts, but also for the origin of false ideas.

I love the truth as God Reveals in Scripture, and by His Spirit always in line and perfect Harmony with all Scripture.

Scripture is the Standard, the Truth, and there is not another one (found in man's teachings).
Well you have not proven a thing

You continue to do what you have done since we have met, Make false accusation. and inuendo..

Give me something to work with man.. Or there is no purpose in going on.
 

Eternally Grateful

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Prove what wrong? What statement ?
When you quote Scripture in context or out of context, Scripture remains true.
If someone does not post an idea, there's nothing proven, and nothing to respond to.
Several other posters and myself did prove or state clearly the ideas that were wrong (like the ones about Jacob, as well as others), but without any Scripture link at the time from you, we are still waiting.

Then the opposite situation here: You post several Scripture, but what is your idea that was stated to be wrong ?
read the scripture I posted

and tell me how they can mean anything other than what I said?

are you able to do this??
 

marks

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James said if we keep the whole law. but STUMBLE in one point, We are guilty.. For the smallest of all sin, This what is required? Perfection

Also note. Adam ate of a forbidden fruit, the fall of mankind, Evil and every destructive act on this earth and to this earth is a direct consequence of that one seemingly small sin

Hi EG,

To me, this is key towards a correct understanding.

Romans 5
8 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

People talk as if our behavior were the determining factor in our destiny, as if, God is going to judge our works, and based on His judgement of our works will allow us into the holy city or not, will call us His Sons or not, will be the "bride" or not, will cast us into outer darkness or not.

As if God created us, and now is searching trying to find something in us, something good enough so we can be close to Him. "Isn't there anyone clean down there??"

When the reality is that His has made us holy and righteous by recreating us in Christ. Justification.

No longer do we bear the death of Adam, now we share the life of Christ.

It's not about, what did you do today. Naturally, we are made alive to actually live. Anything less than walking in faith in Christ is just that, less than. And in Christ is fulness of joy, and peace, and love. And yes, self-control.

But that's not what's at the heart.

We've died to who we were in the line of Adam. That's the point. We've been moved out of the whole kingdom of sin and death and darkness, to which the Law was given, and condemnation, and separation from God.

Now we are in a completely different Kingdom, that works in different ways. Not by external rules of righteousness, but by creating true holiness and righteousness in us.

Condemnation is in the line of Adam, but we are born of God.

Much love!
 
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Joseph77

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You have not posted any true idea so far, along with in the same post the Scripture for you idea, which is appearing patently false - continuing false about Jacob and Esay - you had no Scripture to show your idea that contradicts what God says: that Esau was profane and immoral - God did not say that about Jacob, ever.

Likewise - your other ideas seem usually trying to support some school, some doctrine, (false doctrine), since you do not give sound Scriptural basis at the time. If you post ideas and Scripture all separate from each other, what is supposed to support what? The ideas that look patently false, still appear patently false, unless you put Scripture with them that actually supports the idea, that is all we have to go from.

There's nothing yet for me or anyone else to prove - we have shown and posted about anyone's false ideas, daily.

If an idea is not proven true with Scripture, it remains considered false. As it should.

Well you have not proven a thing
You continue to do what you have done since we have met, Make false accusation. and inuendo..
Give me something to work with man.. Or there is no purpose in going on.

read the scripture I poste
and tell me how they can mean anything other than what I said?
are you able to do this??
 

Eternally Grateful

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You have not posted any true idea so far, along with in the same post the Scripture for you idea, which is appearing patently false - continuing false about Jacob and Esay - you had no Scripture to show your idea that contradicts what God says: that Esau was profane and immoral - God did not say that about Jacob, ever.

Likewise - your other ideas seem usually trying to support some school, some doctrine, (false doctrine), since you do not give sound Scriptural basis at the time. If you post ideas and Scripture all separate from each other, what is supposed to support what? The ideas that look patently false, still appear patently false, unless you put Scripture with them that actually supports the idea, that is all we have to go from.

There's nothing yet for me or anyone else to prove - we have shown and posted about anyone's false ideas, daily.

If an idea is not proven true with Scripture, it remains considered false. As it should.
good day sir
and I remind you. stop with your bearing false witness, You have been warned a few times!

When your ready to come show the verses I posted. and show how I misinterpreted them, come back

Until then, Stop saying I did not provide scripture.
 

Eternally Grateful

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Hi EG,

To me, this is key towards a correct understanding.

Romans 5
8 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

People talk as if our behavior were the determining factor in our destiny, as if, God is going to judge our works, and based on His judgement of our works will allow us into the holy city or not, will call us His Sons or not, will be the "bride" or not, will cast us into outer darkness or not.

As if God created us, and now is searching trying to find something in us, something good enough so we can be close to Him. "Isn't there anyone clean down there??"

When the reality is that His has made us holy and righteous by recreating us in Christ. Justification.

No longer do we bear the death of Adam, now we share the life of Christ.

It's not about, what did you do today. Naturally, we are made alive to actually live. Anything less than walking in faith in Christ is just that, less than. And in Christ is fulness of joy, and peace, and love. And yes, self-control.

But that's not what's at the heart.

We've died to who we were in the line of Adam. That's the point. We've been moved out of the whole kingdom of sin and death and darkness, to which the Law was given, and condemnation, and separation from God.

Now we are in a completely different Kingdom, that works in different ways. Not by external rules of righteousness, but by creating true holiness and righteousness in us.

Condemnation is in the line of Adam, but we are born of God.

Much love!

Amen, That one sin brought death to all. The earth is still groaning today and getting worse every day.

It is sad when we do not see ourselves and what we deserve when we look inside, And use that to keep us focused outside. Knowing God is our abba father. who has our back..
 

Joseph77

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You posted Scripture, randomly... that was meaningless.
good day sir
and I remind you. stop with your bearing false witness, You have been warned a few times!
When your ready to come show the verses I posted. and show how I misinterpreted them, come back
Until then, Stop saying I did not provide scripture.
 

Joseph77

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No

I posted alot of scripture that had the same subject.

What is your issue my friend?
All Scripture is truth.

Your ideas have not been.

To have any discussion about them, the Scripture AND the idea must be identified, preferably in the same post to avoid the many mixups....
 
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marks

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A crucial thing to understand is that spiritual people go in and out of the Spirit. So then perfection is experienced in this way. We stay in the Spirit as long as our spiritual maturity holds up against, temptation, the wiles of the devil etc...

What is normal for a spiritual person is that he remains in the Spirit for longer and longer periods of time as maturity is gained...until a person no longer leaves the Spirit at all. THAT is the full stature of Christ.
This part I can agree completely with.

But most modern believers have never experienced the abundant grace of God ....whereby supernatural power rests on the one believing. THAT is what grace is about. But that is why so many fight against the grace of God...even while claiming to be under a (false) grace that is without power.

Myself, I wouldn't claim to know who has and who hasn't. And if you include all who profess Christianity though they don't really know God, OK, but to broadbrush true Christians that way?

Doesn't it ever feel even a little like "beating your fellow servants"? In truth that's how this all comes across to me.

Supernatural power rests on all us who are His. Fills us. THAT is also what Grace is about. God's goodness given to us.

False grace without power. That would be false indeed. What about a grace without the power to save? Isn't that actually the grace you teach?

Grace to save, but only if YOU can make is all the way to the end. That is you saving yourself, looking to your works to be approved.

Grace with power to save is grace that does in fact save. And as it is Grace that saves, and it does, Hosanna!!

We are alive in Him!

Much love!