Regeneration before or after saving faith

[Renniks]

We don't believe nor have we stated God caused the fall, that is all on you. :)

Again, be honest..quit sidestepping the implications of your theology.

 

[Renniks]

God did not coerce Adam to commit sin and fall, but he certainly ordained it.

There's no practical difference between these options. Can Adam do something different if God ordained him to sin? Not in your doctrine. So, yes," caused" is exactly the right word.

 

[Renniks]

Our parents did create us......sperm and egg

You all seem to pick and choose what scriptures to believe. The egg and sperm do not create apart from God causing them to create. I can't believe what I'm hearing from people who constantly bang the sovereignty of God drum.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

@Renniks we aren't going to get anywhere. When you're often proven wrong and plain busted for error you twist it all another way, perpetually. You're disingenuous my friend.

You mishandle the word, you do not know basic truths.

As soon as you stop using Scripture like a fortune cookie and horoscope, and start admitting your elementary mistakes, get with me, otherwise you're wasting my time. :)

 

[Renniks]

@Renniks we aren't going to get anywhere. When you're often proven wrong and plain busted for error you twist it all another way, perpetually. You're disingenuous my friend.

You mishandle the word, you do not know basic truths.

As soon as you stop using Scripture like a fortune cookie and horoscope, and start admitting your elementary mistakes, get with me, otherwise you're wasting my time. :)

Then go away. No one is forcing you to interact with me.

 

[Renniks]

@Renniks we aren't going to get anywhere. When you're often proven wrong and plain busted for error you twist it all another way, perpetually. You're disingenuous my friend.

You mishandle the word, you do not know basic truths.

As soon as you stop using Scripture like a fortune cookie and horoscope, and start admitting your elementary mistakes, get with me, otherwise you're wasting my time. :)

And you are the one mishandling scripture to make God the author of sin, which is plain to anyone not under the influence of your hyper Calvinist philosophy, that was originally derived from greek philosophy....

 

[XRose]

Then go away. No one is forcing you to interact with me.

Preacher is a slave of Satan. Let him alone to lead himself to destruction.
Preacher and Eternal are offended that God is God.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

The understanding of "image of God" varies across Christianity.

With Arminianisms, that includes sovereignty. Hence responsibility for actions.

Without sovereignty (such as in Calvinsim), that image is a human-shaped rock. Still has no sovereignty, and hence no responsibility for any actions. And until you tell me how you believe each person has the choice whether or not to accept Christ, that rock will forever bear no responsibility for not coming unto Christ, or for falling when dropped.

No one accepts Christ.
That is not taught in scripture.
We are made accepted In the Beloved.
Eph1:6

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Our parents bore our physical body

it was God who breathed life into us (gave us our soul)

Yes... the spirit goes back to God who gave it.
Adam produced offspring in his own image and likeness.

 

[Renniks]

No one accepts Christ.
That is not taught in scripture.
We are made accepted In the Beloved.
Eph1:6

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
John 1:12
I see no indication here that this receiving is being forced on us by God.

Now, I know what you're going to say.

9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

But, appealing to verse 13 as some kind of irrestiable act by God ignores what comes before: Everyone is given light, (vs 9) but some rejected him (vs 11)But those who did recieve him (vs12) he gave what? The right to become his children, and then they are reborn through his power and will. We have here clearly laid out the conditions that first must be meant by the creation before the Creator does the work of rebirth.

Calvinism tries to reverse the order and have regeneration precede believing on him. It's just not there.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

No one accepts Christ.
That is not taught in scripture.
We are made accepted In the Beloved.
Eph1:6

Hence: in your view God made rocks being dropped off a cliff. Some rocks he made to save, others to just go splat. Such is not the rock's fault.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Not according to Calvinism, where God's decree comes before his knowledge. You need to be consistent with your Calvinist theology.

You have not once correctly spoken of God,His omniscience, His decree.
Maybe study it before commenting,you are not demonstrating that you know the difference

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Yes... the spirit goes back to God who gave it.
Adam produced offspring in his own image and likeness.

We were all born in Adam

mall of us are descendants of Adam. And this through this cursed

that’s why we need to become under Christ

in Adam all die. In Christ shall amen be made alive

 

[Preacher4Truth]

No one accepts Christ.
That is not taught in scripture.
We are made accepted In the Beloved.
Eph1:6

Forgive me @Anthony D'Arienzo but I'd like to throw a caveat in there because of what they are probably thinking: It is John 1:12-13.

The word there "received" in John 1:12 λαμβάνω "lambanō" actually can mean "to accept."

However (and hold on before anyone here gets too excited to brag about what they've done) the reason as to why this took place is due to the regeneration, the quickening implicitly spoken of in John 1:13. This action of God is seen in the phrase "who were born" and explains it was "not by the will of the flesh" (another phrase in John 1:13) which contrarily they claim is how they received him, by their will, or free will, that they got saved by choosing.

This text shows this to be a misnomer and erroneous, but it is there purposefully so these would learn the ins and outs of salvation: they were not saved because of their wills, "free" or otherwise.

It is right there in the text.

Notice how it continues down to "but of God" totally dismissing any action of man, completely denying it had a thing to do with man, his will, volition, blood, decision, any of it.

Here is some commentary on this:

Nor of the will of the flesh; man's free will, which is carnal and corrupt, is enmity to God, and impotent to every thing that is spiritually good: regeneration is ascribed to another will and power, even to the will and power of God, and denied of this:

nor of the will of man: of the best of men, as Abraham, David, and others; who, though ever so willing and desirous, that their children, relations, friends, and servants, should be born again, be partakers of the grace of God, and live in his sight, yet cannot effect any thing of this kind: all that they can do is to pray for them, give advice, and bring them under the means of grace; but all is ineffectual without a divine energy. So with the Jews, איש, "a man", signifies a great man, in opposition to "Adam", or "Enosh", which signify a mean, weak, frail man; and our translators have observed this distinction, in Isa_2:9 and the mean man (Adam) boweth down, and the great man (Ish) "humbleth himself": on which Jarchi has this note, "Adam boweth down", i.e. little men; "and a man humbleth himself", i.e. princes, and mighty men, men of power: and so Kimchi on Psa_4:2. "O ye sons of men", observes, that the Psalmist calls them the sons of men, with respect to the great men of Israel; for there were with Absalom the sons of great men. Though sometimes the Jews say (g), Adam is greater than any of the names of men, as Geber, Enosh, Ish. But now our evangelist observes, let a man be ever so great, or good, or eminent, for gifts and grace, he cannot communicate grace to another, or to whom he will; none are born again of any such will:

but of God; of God, the Father of Christ, who begets to a lively hope; and of the Son, who quickens whom he will; and of the grace of the Spirit, to whom regeneration is generally ascribed...

Hey @Jane_Doe22 you don't need to tell me you read this and didn't get anything out of it. Since this does seem to be the case that you can never see it or get anything out of theological explanations, seriously in love I say this: you really need to think out why this is the case.

@Renniks I hope you can do what I stated to you in your last post and we can dialog without you denying plain things seen by everyone. Like own your error and learn from the above? :) ;)

@Eternally Grateful I know you have me on ignore. Maybe you will peak. The above Scripture totally refutes your ideology of how we get saved, and flat out denies it. Still would like to get together in my hometown with you and maybe have a coffee? Maybe up by Westerville? :)

 

[Preacher4Truth]

Preacher is a slave of Satan. Let him alone to lead himself to destruction.
Preacher and Eternal are offended that God is God.

Nice play on my sig, but your application of it is absolutely false. :)

 

[Preacher4Truth]

Then go away. No one is forcing you to interact with me.

I interacted with you out of my own free will. :)

 

[Renniks]

@Renniks I hope you can do what I stated to you in your last post and we can dialog without you denying plain things seen by everyone. Like own your error and learn from the above? :) ;)

I already posted about what those verses clearly state. As usual, you are reading it backwards and adding a bunch of baggage from man made religion.

9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

It's not complicated. The light is given to who? Everyone. The choice to to receive or not receive him. Belief follows for those who receive followed by a supernatural birth into God's family.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Hence: in your view God made rocks being dropped off a cliff. Some rocks he made to save, others to just go splat. Such is not the rock's fault.

God made Adam and Eve....good, very good.
The rebelled and sinned by failing to obey.
Sin and death entered.
Adam and Eve made us in their fallen image..
Gods image is still in man, but it is broken by the fall.
Do you understand that...gen 2-5
Eccl7:29, Roman's 5:12-21

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

We were all born in Adam

mall of us are descendants of Adam. And this through this cursed

that’s why we need to become under Christ

in Adam all die. In Christ shall amen be made alive

Exactly.....we are predestined to be renewed image bearers, conformed to the image of Jesus.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

God made Adam and Eve....good, very good.
The rebelled and sinned by failing to obey.
Sin and death entered.
Adam and Eve made us in their fallen image..
Gods image is still in man, but it is broken by the fall.
Do you understand that...gen 2-5
Eccl7:29, Roman's 5:12-21

With all possible respect, to me your view doesn't quite mess with logic or make lot of sense.