2 Thessalonians 1:8

[FollowHim]

Amen

trying to replace the baptism of God with the baptism of man

I think Jesus called this blasphemy

Some wish to create reams of.excuses for sinful behaviour. Which behaviour is ok and which a sign you were never saved.
For instance murdering people, or being rude without concern?
Creating infinite ethics, unachievable standards creates superficial faith, literally. If there is just a feel good factor, you can choose any faith.

Blasphemy, going to the pit, are strong words. Jesus accused the legalists of having no love, but approved of morality.

If I can hate, and yet be saved this is not Christian faith. Jesus is God. Each word precious, yet for some it's only promises of blessing and no danger.

Listen to Him, follow Him. Walk the straight path or die. Unless one changes destruction awaits.

 

[FollowHim]

When the Gentiles had received the promise of the Holy Spirit before water baptism in Acts 10:43-48, then they are not one and the same. Water baptism is an ordinance for new believers to follow as His disciples but not a requirement for salvation as is evident in scripture.

We are baptised into the Spirit and into water. Clearly both are important.

Do we have a choice? No.
The meaning varies, the reality foundational.

What is a problem is the Holy Spirit needs a purified repentant Holy vessel.
God is declaring to His people what they are. Now flip this a little. Still impure and rebellious? Have you met Jesus yet?

Compromise, lying, unresolved sin, unforgiven individuals still there? At the altar they need to go, to find the saviour for you to know.

 

[Enow]

Some wish to create reams of.excuses for sinful behaviour. Which behaviour is ok and which a sign you were never saved.

Not really.

Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

This explains why there will be vessels unto dishonor still in His House.

2 Peter 2:19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. 20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

If all that was built on that foundation which was laid by Jesus Christ for believing in Him, even in His name, was wood, stubble, and hay, and by sowing to the works of the flesh in reaping corruption, they will suffer a physical death ( that destruction ) but the spirit is still saved.

1 Corinthians 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. 16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

That is why there will be "saved" but unrepentant saints left behind when the Bridegroom comes for the abiding bride of Christ. This is when God judges His House first as the least in the kingdom of God aka the vessels unto dishonors are still in His House to testify to the power of God in salvation for those who believe in Him, even in His name. Like the prodigal son, they missed out on their first inheritance giving it up for wild living, but they will return Home because they are still sons. They can never get that first inheritance back for why God has to wipe the tears from their eyes of those resurrected after the great tribulation to get past that great loss whereby they were weeping and gnashing their teeth, but He will do it.

For instance murdering people, or being rude without concern?
Creating infinite ethics, unachievable standards creates superficial faith, literally. If there is just a feel good factor, you can choose any faith.

Blasphemy, going to the pit, are strong words. Jesus accused the legalists of having no love, but approved of morality.

If I can hate, and yet be saved this is not Christian faith. Jesus is God. Each word precious, yet for some it's only promises of blessing and no danger.

Listen to Him, follow Him. Walk the straight path or die. Unless one changes destruction awaits.

Instructions was left for left behind saints and new believers for the duration of the coming great tribulation after that calamity of fire on one third of the earth that will set up the hour of temptation that shall try all upon the earth;

Revelation 13:9 If any man have an ear, let him hear. 10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

Since the enemies with the mark of the beast will be cast into the lake of fire, one would think we would be allow to kill them, but no, not even then. A saint will be tempted to hate them and want to kill them when they see their loved ones slain, or worse, tortured before being killed as they themselves can be subjected to the same, but although some may give in to those temptations, thinking they can wage war back, like some "Tribulation Force", they are still saved, having His seal, but it would have been better if they had "listen to Him and lean on Him to suffer grief wrongfully" as Christ did.

This is something I know I cannot do no matter what in living this reconciled relationship with God even now which is why that reconciled relationship with God has to be lived thru Jesus Christ as He is helping me to rely on Him for everything in relating to me as my personal Good Shepherd in helping me to follow Him, thus getting to know Him as my Friend in how He keeps me as His Friend by abiding in Him and His words.

 

[Enow]

We are baptised into the Spirit and into water. Clearly both are important.

Paul didn't say so.

1 Corinthians 1:14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius; 15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name. 16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other. 17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God..... 21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

There is proof when God saved the Gentiles before water baptism in Acts 10:44-48

Do we have a choice? No.
The meaning varies, the reality foundational.

Water baptism is an ordinance for new believers in following Jesus Christ as His disciple, but not a requirement for salvation.

What is a problem is the Holy Spirit needs a purified repentant Holy vessel.
God is declaring to His people what they are. Now flip this a little. Still impure and rebellious? Have you met Jesus yet?

Compromise, lying, unresolved sin, unforgiven individuals still there? At the altar they need to go, to find the saviour for you to know.

It is by believing in Him is how one receives the remission of sins as stated plainly in Acts 10:43. It is the same gospel in Acts 2:38 whereby convicted Jews guilty for crucifying Jesus because of unbelief are asked to repent from unbelief by believing in Him is how they had really received the remission of sins. Believers read water baptism after "repent" as if the remission of sins comes by water baptism, when it did not for the Gentiles in receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

The "born of water" is NOT a reference to water baptism.

John 3:5-----------Spirit++++++++++++++water>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>in the kingdom - *no mention of baptism.
John 7:38,39------Spirit++++++++++++++living water>>>>>>>>>>>those BELIEVING IN HIM would receive
John 4:10,14------drink++++++++++++++water/living water>>everlasting life
1 Cor 12:13-------Spirit++++++++++++++Spirit/baptized>>>>>>>>>into one body/drink into one Spirit
Titus 3:5----------not by works of righteousness which we have done++++++but according to His mercy He saved us>>>>>>>through the washing of regeneration/renewing of the Holy Spirit
Eph 5:26----------washing of water>>>>by the word *not by water baptism.

Neither Jesus or Paul were referring to baptismal regeneration but to cleansing, which is not accomplished by plain ordinary H20, but by spiritual washing or purification of the soul, accomplished by the Holy Spirit through the Word of God at the moment of salvation (Ephesians 5:26; Titus 3:5; 1 Peter 1:23). The word "washing" in the Strong's Greek Concordance with Vine's Number 3067 - (Loutron) "a bath, a laver" is used is used *metaphorically of the Word of God, as the instrument of spiritual cleansing,* Ephesians 5:26; and Titus 3:5, of the "washing of regeneration." *So to automatically read "baptism" into John 3:5 simply because it mentions "water" is biased and unwarranted.

John 3:5, 1 Corinthians 12:13 or Titus 3:5 say nothing at all about a "spirit baptism". YOU ADDED that idea to those verses.

John 3:5-------------SPirit+++++++++water>>>>>>>>>>in the kingdom
1Cor 12:13----------Spirit+++++++++baptized>>>>>>>>>in the body
Tts 3:5------------Holy Ghost++++++laver of water>>>>>>>saved

John 3:5 speaks of one birth containing two elements 1) Spirit 2) water. Those two elements are in each of the 3 verses above and when comparing verses two verses it is clear that water refers to water baptism, a laver of water/baptismal font.

YOu continue to use bad exegesis. Again, just becasue water is used fiigurative way in one verse does not mean it is used figuratively in other verses or in verses YOU want it to be figurative. There is NOTHING in the context of John 3 that 'water' means anything other than literal water or that Spirit is anything other than literal Spirit.

There is nothing in Titus 3:5 that loutron means anything other than a laver of water. Paul may have gotten the idea from the OT where priests had to first cleanse themselves in a laver of water before entering the temple. In like manner, men today must have their sins cleansed by the blood of Christ in laver of water, a baptismal font, before entering the kingdom/church.

Various words in the Bible are not used figurative simply because YOU want them to be.

 

[Enow]

John 3:5, 1 Corinthians 12:13 or Titus 3:5 say nothing at all about a "spirit baptism". YOU ADDED that idea to those verses.

John 3:5-------------SPirit+++++++++water>>>>>>>>>>in the kingdom
1Cor 12:13----------Spirit+++++++++baptized>>>>>>>>>in the body
Tts 3:5------------Holy Ghost++++++laver of water>>>>>>>saved

John 3:5 speaks of one birth containing two elements 1) Spirit 2) water. Those two elements are in each of the 3 verses above and when comparing verses two verses it is clear that water refers to water baptism, a laver of water/baptismal font.

YOu continue to use bad exegesis. Again, just becasue water is used fiigurative way in one verse does not mean it is used figuratively in other verses or in verses YOU want it to be figurative. There is NOTHING in the context of John 3 that 'water' means anything other than literal water or that Spirit is anything other than literal Spirit.

You are forgetting how the Jews were considered born into the kingdom of God as in the nation of Israel by physical birth.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

That was how it was before Jesus came; those born a Jew or converted to Judaism we per the will of the flesh or of the will of man.

Now they become the sons of God by God to those who believe on His name; no water baptism required; just believe in Him.

If we go back to John 3 rd chapter, we see Jesus answering Nicodemus's question on how one is born again and that i by believing in Him after He had ascended which will be after He had resurrected.

John 3:9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? 10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? 11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? 13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

So believing in Him is how we are saved as in not condemned. If we can be saved by water baptism and by believing in Him, then the words of Jesus would fall flat because we would be able to tell when one is being born again when they receive water baptism.

There is nothing in Titus 3:5 that loutron means anything other than a laver of water. Paul may have gotten the idea from the OT where priests had to first cleanse themselves in a laver of water before entering the temple. In like manner, men today must have their sins cleansed by the blood of Christ in laver of water, a baptismal font, before entering the kingdom/church.

Various words in the Bible are not used figurative simply because YOU want them to be.

Then what about what Paul says that water baptism is not what he was called to do but preach the cross for how believing in Him is how God is pleased and saved them?

1 Corinthians 1:14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius; 15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name. 16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other. 17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God..... 21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

And if you say that we are not saved yet... then explain how this can be written regarding our present state?

1 Corinthians 1:26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:...
29 That no flesh should glory in his presence. 30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: 31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

This is absolutely false. I at one time had temporarily attended the church of Christ several years ago so I understand their schemes in trying to "shoe horn" works "into" salvation through faith. Repentance precedes "believeth" and they are two sides to the same coin and the word of faith is in our mouth and in our heart TOGETHER so believing and confession are not two separates steps to salvation, but are chronologically together. Water baptism "follows" believing unto salvation. In regards to 1 Peter 3:21, Peter tells us that baptism now saves you, yet when Peter uses this phrase he continues in the same sentence to explain exactly what he means by it. He said that baptism now saves you-not the removal of dirt from the flesh (that is, not as an outward, physical act which washes dirt from the body--that is not what saves you), "but an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (that is, as an inward, spiritual transaction between God and the individual, a transaction that is symbolized by the outward ceremony of water baptism).

*Just as the eight people in the ark were "saved THROUGH water" as they were IN THE ARK. They were not literally saved "by" the water. Hebrews 11:7 is clear on this point (..built an ARK for the SAVING of his household). *NOTE: The context reveals that ONLY the righteous (Noah and his family) were DRY and therefore SAFE. In contrast, ONLY the WICKED in Noah's day came in CONTACT WITH THE WATER and they all PERISHED.

They that gladly received his word were "afterwards" baptized, just as we see in Acts 10:43-47. Believes/remission of sins "precedes" water baptism.

Baptism is not included in believes. Believing is not baptism and believing precedes baptism. The one's who believed and were saved were "afterwards" baptized. Not all unbelievers reject baptism. There are many people who attend false religions and cults who don't truly believe in Christ unto salvation, yet have been water baptized anyway because they believe it will save them (along with other works)

The will of God in becoming saved is to believe in Him. (John 6:40) This does not simply mean believe "mental assent" in the existence of Jesus, but believe in/have faith in/trust in/reliance in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. Salvation by faith + works of any kind which follow (including water baptism) would be works of merit. You can't have it both ways. Trusting in works for salvation (and not in Christ alone) is remaining in impenitent disobedience to the will of God and is also remaining in unbelief. (2 Corinthians 4:3,4)

Ironic. 1 John 3:10 - By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

Yet the word of faith is in the mouth and heart of believers. (Romans 10:8)

Here you have another misunderstanding. In John 12:42, do we know the real condition of these "believing" rulers' hearts? Was it (mere mental assent belief James 2:19) or (trust and reliance saving belief John 3:16)? We do know that they loved men's praises (v. 43) more than God's (Jn. 5:44). Some may argue that the unwillingness of the chief rulers to confess Christ in this isolated situation throws doubt on the complete genuineness of their faith and others may argue that they simply have a weak moment in this isolated situation in front of the Pharisees. Does this mean they never confessed Christ at all?

The Apostle Peter at one point failed to confess Jesus before men (John 18:17-27), but after the Holy Spirit was given, he was a different man who boldly confessed Him (Acts 4:8-13). We know that Peter was saved even though he had a weak moment and the same may be true for these chief rulers as well. Does the text specifically say that they were saved or not saved? If the chief rulers truly believed (trusted in Christ for salvation) even though they had a weak moment, then they were saved (John 3:16). If their lack of confession was the result of a lack of genuine belief, then they are not saved (John 3:18). Regardless, this does not support your 4 step formula that culminates in water baptism for salvation.

Obedient works are necessary for one to be saved. 1 John 3:10 still says those who continue to not do God's will continue to not be of God. This is why you will never show example under the NT gospel where one was saved and of God while remaining in impenitent, rebellious disobedience to God. You will never show the verse where lost men were told to "do nothing and thou shalt be saved".



1 Peter 3:21 the word the KJV uses is like figure meaning an antitype which means a mirror reflection of the type.

According to Peter: "Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:"

OT type: saved by water (flood)
NT antitype: saved by water (baptism)

Obviously peter is speaking about water baptism that saves for it is water one baths in to wash away dirt and one does not bath in spirit to wash away dirt. Secondly the world was flooded with water not with spirit hence the type (saved by water) to antitype (saved by water).

Peter said those 8 souls were saved by WATER (hydor). Why did you try and change God's word by changing the word "water" that God used to "ark"? Obviously you are attempting to get around the force of the passage that water baptism saves. You make words figuratively at your convenience you change God's word at your convenience to force your theology into various passages.


Acts 2:41 those that gladly accepted Peter's words were baptized. This means those that rejected the gospel words preached by Peter rejected baptism. The logical conclusion is rejecting baptism is rejecting the gospel.

Acts 2:38; Mark 16:16; Romans 6:3-7 put baptism BEFORE salvation/remission of sins/walking in newness of life. Once again you rewrite the Bible to make it conform to your theological bias as you did with 1 Pet 3:20 by changing "water" to 'ark'.

Men have been commanded by God to be baptized, hence those who submit to being baptized are engaged in an act of obedience, doing God's righteous will and not doing a work of merit. Was Noah building the ark a work of merit or obedience? Did he merit the saving of his house or was the saving of his house by grace (Hebrews 11:7)? You apparently do not know the difference between works of merit and obedience. Of all the obedience men in the Bible did, as Abraham, Noah, etc., not one time is their obedience called a work of merit.


Eph 2:8---------------faith >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> saves
1 Pet 3:21----------baptism>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> saves

Again, there is just one way to be saved, no alternatives. Then the most simple of logic and common sense shows that baptism is a part of faith.

IF one takes the sum of God's thoughts, the whole counsel of God one finds God's word does require those 4 steps of belief repentance confession and baptism to be saved. You cannot show where the unbeliever will be saved or where the impenitent believer will be saved or the believer that refuses to confess Christ will be saved or the one that refuses to be baptized will be saved.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

You are forgetting how the Jews were considered born into the kingdom of God as in the nation of Israel by physical birth.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

That was how it was before Jesus came; those born a Jew or converted to Judaism we per the will of the flesh or of the will of man.

Now they become the sons of God by God to those who believe on His name; no water baptism required; just believe in Him.

If we go back to John 3 rd chapter, we see Jesus answering Nicodemus's question on how one is born again and that i by believing in Him after He had ascended which will be after He had resurrected.

John 3:9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? 10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? 11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? 13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

So believing in Him is how we are saved as in not condemned. If we can be saved by water baptism and by believing in Him, then the words of Jesus would fall flat because we would be able to tell when one is being born again when they receive water baptism.



Then what about what Paul says that water baptism is not what he was called to do but preach the cross for how believing in Him is how God is pleased and saved them?

1 Corinthians 1:14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius; 15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name. 16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other. 17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God..... 21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

And if you say that we are not saved yet... then explain how this can be written regarding our present state?

1 Corinthians 1:26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:...
29 That no flesh should glory in his presence. 30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: 31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Fleshly birth did not put the Jews into the kingdom of God/the church. Under the OT law physical birth put the Jew into a covenant relationship with God but the NT requires a spiritual birth that happens when one is water baptized to be in the kingdom. The Jews in Acts 2 that obeyed v38 and water baptized where the ones added to the kingdom/church.

Eph 2:8---------------faith >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> saves
1 Pet 3:21----------baptism>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> saves

Again, there is just one way to be saved, no alternatives. Therefore baptism is a part of faith. God mad baptism part of faith and no man can separate the two. In Mark 16:16 believe is connected to baptize with the conjunction 'and' making the two in separable and of equal importance and necessity to being saved.

 

[Enow]

Fleshly birth did not put the Jews into the kingdom of God/the church. Under the OT law physical birth put the Jew into a covenant relationship with God

That is what I ave been saying for what Jesus meant when talking to Nicodemus. He talked about how sons of God were born into the kingdom of God to how it will be after His ascension in being born of the Spirit.

but the NT requires a spiritual birth that happens when one is water baptized to be in the kingdom. The Jews in Acts 2 that obeyed v38 and water baptized where the ones added to the kingdom/church.


Eph 2:8---------------faith >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> saves
1 Pet 3:21----------baptism>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> saves

Again, there is just one way to be saved, no alternatives. Therefore baptism is a part of faith. God mad baptism part of faith and no man can separate the two. In Mark 16:16 believe is connected to baptize with the conjunction 'and' making the two in separable and of equal importance and necessity to being saved.

Nope. As Jesus explained to Nicodemus, believing in Him is how one is saved and water baptism wasn't even mention during that explanation to Nicodemus.

Isaiah 59:1Behold, the Lord's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:

 

[mailmandan]

John 3:5, 1 Corinthians 12:13 or Titus 3:5 say nothing at all about a "spirit baptism". YOU ADDED that idea to those verses.

John 3:5, 1 Corinthians 12:13 and Titus 3:5 say nothing at all about "water baptism." *Read 1 Corinthians 12:13 again. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. This is clearly Spirit baptism, not water baptism. In John 3:5, Jesus said "born of water and the Spirit," not born of baptism. In John 4:10, Jesus said, "If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, ‘Give Me a drink,’ you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water.” In John 4:14, Jesus said, "but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life." In John 7:37-39, Jesus said - "If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink. 38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified." *See how this all fits together perfectly? :) Once again, The word "washing" in the Strong's Greek Concordance with Vine's Number 3067 - (Loutron) "a bath, a laver" is used *metaphorically of the Word of God, as the instrument of spiritual cleansing,* Ephesians 5:26; and Titus 3:5, of the "washing of regeneration." *So once again, to automatically read "baptism" into John 3:5 simply because it mentions "water" is biased and unwarranted.

John 3:5-------------SPirit+++++++++water>>>>>>>>>>in the kingdom
1Cor 12:13----------Spirit+++++++++baptized>>>>>>>>>in the body
Tts 3:5------------Holy Ghost++++++laver of water>>>>>>>saved

John 3:5-----------Spirit++++++++++++++water>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>in the kingdom - *no mention of baptism.
John 7:38,39------Spirit++++++++++++++living water>>>>>>>>>>>those BELIEVING IN HIM would receive
John 4:10,14------drink++++++++++++++water/living water>>everlasting life
1 Cor 12:13-------Spirit++++++++++++++Spirit/baptized>>>>>>>>>into one body/drink into one Spirit
Titus 3:5----------not by works of righteousness which we have done++++++but according to His mercy He saved us>>>>>>>through the washing of regeneration/renewing of the Holy Spirit.

So neither Jesus or Paul were referring to baptismal regeneration but to cleansing, which is not accomplished by plain ordinary H20, but by spiritual washing or purification of the soul, accomplished by the Holy Spirit through the Word of God at the moment of salvation (Ephesians 5:26; Titus 3:5; 1 Peter 1:23). The word "water" is used in the Bible as an emblem of the Word of God, and in such uses it is associated with cleansing or washing. (John 15:3; Ephesians 5:26) When we are born again, the Holy Spirit begets new life, divine life, so that we are said to become "partakers of the divine nature" (2 Peter 1:4). The new birth is brought to pass through "incorruptible seed, by the Word of God, which lives and abides forever" (I Peter 1:23), but the Holy Spirit accomplishes the miracle of regeneration.

John 3:5 speaks of one birth containing two elements 1) Spirit 2) water. Those two elements are in each of the 3 verses above and when comparing verses two verses it is clear that water refers to water baptism, a laver of water/baptismal font.

The two elements in John 3:5 are Spirit and living water, which is in perfect harmony with John 4:10,14; 7:37-39. There is no clear reference to water baptism, except to the natural man, who can only understand natural water. You continue to confuse the picture or symbol of the new birth with the new birth itself.

YOu continue to use bad exegesis.

Oh the irony. You are incapable of seeing anything beyond your biased church doctrine/indoctrination.

Again, just becasue water is used fiigurative way in one verse does not mean it is used figuratively in other verses or in verses YOU want it to be figurative.

As Greek scholar AT Robertson says in regards to water baptism - "A symbol is not the reality, but the picture of the reality."

There is NOTHING in the context of John 3 that 'water' means anything other than literal water or that Spirit is anything other than literal Spirit.

There is NOTHING in the context of John 3 that links 'water' to water baptism. *You need to properly harmonize scripture with scripture (John 3:5; 4:10,14; 7:37-39) before reaching your conclusion on doctrine.

There is nothing in Titus 3:5 that loutron means anything other than a laver of water. Paul may have gotten the idea from the OT where priests had to first cleanse themselves in a laver of water before entering the temple. In like manner, men today must have their sins cleansed by the blood of Christ in laver of water, a baptismal font, before entering the kingdom/church.

Baptism is the picture or the symbol of the new birth, not the means of securing it and once again, The word "washing" in the Strong's Greek Concordance with Vine's Number 3067 - (Loutron) "a bath, a laver" is used *metaphorically of the Word of God, as the instrument of spiritual cleansing,* Ephesians 5:26; and Titus 3:5, of the "washing of regeneration."

Various words in the Bible are not used figurative simply because YOU want them to be.

Various words in the Bible are not always used literally simply because YOU want them to be.

 

[mailmandan]

Obedient works are necessary for one to be saved.

So you clearly admit that you believe man is saved by works, contrary to (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9) I clearly remember the preacher at the church of Christ that I attended several years ago teaching salvation by works (with a heavy emphasis on water baptism). Actually, water baptism was just about the only thing that Campbellite preacher talked about.

1 John 3:10 still says those who continue to not do God's will continue to not be of God.

1 John 3:10 says - "By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother." Those who continue to remain in unbelief/fail to do God's will by believing in the Son will continue to be children of the devil.

This is why you will never show example under the NT gospel where one was saved and of God while remaining in impenitent, rebellious disobedience to God.

Practicing righteousness and not sin is descriptive of children of God. (1 John 3:9,10) Trusting in works for salvation instead of trusting in Christ alone for salvation is remaining in impenitent, rebellious disobedience to God. It's called unbelief. (John 3:18)

You will never show the verse where lost men were told to "do nothing and thou shalt be saved".

"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved" (Acts 16:31) is not doing nothing.

1 Peter 3:21 the word the KJV uses is like figure meaning an antitype which means a mirror reflection of the type.

According to Peter: "Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:"

OT type: saved by water (flood)
NT antitype: saved by water (baptism)

Obviously peter is speaking about water baptism that saves for it is water one baths in to wash away dirt and one does not bath in spirit to wash away dirt. Secondly the world was flooded with water not with spirit hence the type (saved by water) to antitype (saved by water).

Peter said those 8 souls were saved by WATER (hydor). Why did you try and change God's word by changing the word "water" that God used to "ark"? Obviously you are attempting to get around the force of the passage that water baptism saves. You make words figuratively at your convenience you change God's word at your convenience to force your theology into various passages.

You try to force scripture to "conform" to your biased church doctrine/indoctrination. As I already explained in post #198, In 1 Peter 3:21, Peter tells us that baptism now saves you, yet when Peter uses this phrase he continues in the same sentence to explain exactly what he means by it. He said that baptism now saves you-not the removal of dirt from the flesh (that is, not as an outward, physical act which washes dirt from the body--that is not what saves you), "but an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (that is, as an inward, spiritual transaction between God and the individual, a transaction that is symbolized by the outward ceremony of water baptism).

*Just as the eight people in the ark were "saved THROUGH water" as they were IN THE ARK. They were not literally saved "by" the water. Hebrews 11:7 is clear on this point (..built an ARK for the SAVING of his household). *NOTE: The context reveals that ONLY the righteous (Noah and his family) were DRY and therefore SAFE. In contrast, ONLY the WICKED in Noah's day came in CONTACT WITH THE WATER and they all PERISHED.

Furthermore, the Greek word "antitupon" used in I Peter 3:21, is "an adjective, used as a noun," and denotes, in the NT, "a corresponding type," being "said of baptism." "The circumstances of the flood, the ark and its occupants, formed a type, and baptism forms "a corresponding type," each setting forth the spiritual realities of the death, burial, and resurrection of believers in their identification with Christ. It is not a case of type and antitype, but of two types, that in Genesis, the type and baptism, the corresponding type." Noah was saved by the ark "through (via) water." Water was not the means of their salvation, but the ark. The ark is what both delivered and preserved them, the two aspects of "salvation." Their "salvation" was typical of the salvation promised to the Christian. It pictured it. So also does Christian baptism picture the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. *By saying, "not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience - through the resurrection of Jesus Christ," Peter guards against saving power to the physical ceremony itself.

 

[mailmandan]

Acts 2:41 those that gladly accepted Peter's words were baptized. This means those that rejected the gospel words preached by Peter rejected baptism. The logical conclusion is rejecting baptism is rejecting the gospel.

Those that gladly accepted Peter's word were (afterwards) baptized. Those who rejected Peter's message there would obviously not bother to get water baptized, although sadly today, there are multitudes of people who attend various false religions and cults who get water baptized, but do not truly believe the gospel. Rejecting the gospel is rejecting to believe the gospel by trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of your salvation, whether you have been water baptized or not.

Acts 2:38; Mark 16:16; Romans 6:3-7 put baptism BEFORE salvation/remission of sins/walking in newness of life.

Once again you rewrite the Bible to make it conform to your theological bias as you did with 1 Pet 3:20 by changing "water" to 'ark'.

Rewriting the Bible to make it conform to your theological bias is exactly what you do by changing "ark" to 'water.' Hebrews 11:7 - ..built an ARK for the SAVING of his household.

In Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis.

*Also compare the fact that these Gentiles in Acts 10:45 received the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) and this was BEFORE water baptism (Acts 10:47).

In Acts 10:43 we read ..whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins. Again, these Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit - Acts 10:45 - when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ - Acts 11:17 - (compare with Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) BEFORE water baptism - Acts 10:47. This is referred to as repentance unto life - Acts 11:18.

*So the only logical conclusion when properly harmonizing scripture with scripture is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony* :)

Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely essential for salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on a lack of baptism. So salvation rests on belief. *NOWHERE does the Bible say "baptized or condemned."

*If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? *BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.

John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

In regards to Romans 6:3-4, Greek scholar AT Robertson explains - Baptism is the public proclamation of one's inward spiritual relation to Christ attained before the baptism. See on "Galatians 3:27" where it is like putting on an outward garment or uniform. Into his death (ei ton qanaton autou). So here "unto his death," "in relation to his death," which relation Paul proceeds to explain by the symbolism of the ordinance. The picture in baptism points two ways, backwards to Christ's death and burial and to our death to sin, forward to Christ's resurrection from the dead and to our new life pledged by the coming out of the watery grave to walk on the other side of the baptismal grave. There is the further picture of our own resurrection from the grave. It is a tragedy that Paul's majestic picture here has been so blurred by controversy that some refuse to see it. It should be said also that a symbol is not the reality, but the picture of the reality.
Romans 6:3 Commentary - Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament
Romans 6:4 Commentary - Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament

 

[mailmandan]

Men have been commanded by God to be baptized, hence those who submit to being baptized are engaged in an act of obedience, doing God's righteous will and not doing a work of merit.

"Acts of obedience" which "follow" saving faith in Christ are "works." There is a difference between doing God's will "in order to become saved" and doing God's will "after" we have been saved. You mix both will's together and create salvation by works. If getting water baptized stands between us and eternal life, then it's a work of merit. In Matthew 3:13-15, we read - Then Jesus came from Galilee to John at the Jordan to be baptized by him. And John tried to prevent Him, saying, "I need to be baptized by You, and are You coming to me?" But Jesus answered and said to him, "Permit it to be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness." Then he allowed Him. Baptism is a work of righteousness and we are not saved by works of righteousness which we have done. (Titus 3:5)

Was Noah building the ark a work of merit or obedience?

It was a work of obedience, not a work of merit. Noah had already "found grace" (Genesis 6:8), was "a preacher of righteousness" (2 Peter 2:5), and "walked with God" BEFORE he built the ark. His obedience was a DEMONSTRATION of his faith, not the origin of it. So building the ark was a demonstration of his faith and saved him and his family (physically) from drowning (Hebrews 11:17).

Did he merit the saving of his house or was the saving of his house by grace (Hebrews 11:7)?

Salvation is by grace through faith, not works, and the physical saving of his house by the ark pictures the saving of believers by Jesus. If Noah would have refused to build the ark, then he would have demonstrated a lack of faith and he and his house would have drown in the flood waters instead of being saved from drowning in the ark of safety.

You apparently do not know the difference between works of merit and obedience.

It's you who doesn't know the difference. If accomplishing certain works of obedience (which follow saving faith in Christ) stand between us and eternal life, then they are works of merit. You can't have it both ways.

Of all the obedience men in the Bible did, as Abraham, Noah, etc., not one time is their obedience called a work of merit.

Not one time in the Bible do we read that Abraham, Noah, etc.. were saved by works.

Eph 2:8---------------faith >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> saves
1 Pet 3:21----------baptism>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> saves

Saved by grace through faith, not works, including water baptism. Baptism now saves you-not the removal of dirt from the flesh (that is, not as an outward, physical act which washes dirt from the body--that is not what saves you), "but an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (that is, as an inward, spiritual transaction between God and the individual, a transaction that is symbolized by the outward ceremony of water baptism). A symbol is not the reality, but can be used to refer to the reality and that seems to be what is confusing you. A FLOOD of confusion.

Again, there is just one way to be saved, no alternatives.

By grace through faith, not works. (Ephesians 2:8,9)

Then the most simple of logic and common sense shows that baptism is a part of faith.

This is flawed human logic and is a vain attempt to "shoe horn" works "into" salvation through faith. Faith is faith and baptism is baptism and we are saved through faith.

IF one takes the sum of God's thoughts, the whole counsel of God one finds God's word does require those 4 steps of belief repentance confession and baptism to be saved. You cannot show where the unbeliever will be saved or where the impenitent believer will be saved or the believer that refuses to confess Christ will be saved or the one that refuses to be baptized will be saved.

So according to you, John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26 are "incomplete" statements and we we must pool all such statements together about (repentance, confession and baptism) and list them as "additional requirements" that we must accomplish "after" we "believe in Him" if we wish to find out what God truly requires for salvation? These passages in John say that everyone who "believes in Him" will be saved. It does not merely say that believing in Him is one of many things from a check list that is required in order to be saved. It does not leave open such an interpretation of the passage. None of those passages in John leaves room for "additional requirements" that follow. *Your false gospel is the result of bad semantics and flawed hermeneutics.

Repentance is not an additional requirement to become saved "after" we believe in Him and receive eternal life. Repentance actually "precedes" believes/believe the gospel/faith in our Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 21:32; Mark 1:15; Acts 20:21). People who attend the church of Christ reverse the scriptural order of repentance and faith and erroneously turn salvation through faith in Christ into a 4 step program of salvation by faith + works. The Bible sometimes only mentions repentance as a condition for salvation. One example of this would be Luke 13:3, "I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish." A few times both repentance and believe/faith are mentioned in the same verse (Matthew 21:32; Mark 1:15; Acts 20:21). There are many verses which only mention belief/faith as the condition for salvation (John 3:15,16,18; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; 26:28; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Philippians 3:9; 1 John 5:13 etc..). Repentance is a "change of mind" and the new direction of this change of mind is faith in Christ. *Two sides to the same coin.* When only repentance is mentioned, faith is implied or assumed. When only faith is mentioned, repentance is implied or assumed. Where you have one you must have the other. If you believe the gospel, then you already repented in the process of changing your mind and choosing to believe the gospel. Not so with baptism. You can repent and believe the gospel, but NOT YET BE WATER BAPTIZED. (Acts 10:43-47; 11:17,18)

Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our hearts that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation (as if we believe unto righteousness today, yet still remain lost/then finally confess next week and are finally saved next week) but are chronologically together. Romans 10:8 - But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, in your mouth and in your heart" (together) that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, (notice the reverse order from verse 9-10) - that if you confess with your mouth Jesus that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Confess/believe; believe/confess.

1 Corinthians 12:3 - Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except BY the Holy Spirit. There is divine influence or direct operation of the Holy Spirit in the heart of a person when confessing Jesus as Lord. This confession is not just a simple acknowledgment that Jesus is the Lord (even the demons believe that), but is a deep personal conviction that Jesus is that person's Lord and Savior. So simply believing in our head (and not in our heart) that God raised Him from the dead does not result in righteousness and simply reciting the words "Jesus is Lord" not by the Holy Spirit from a check list of steps is not unto salvation.

According to your 4 step gospel plan, man is not saved until he is water baptized, yet how can one believe unto righteousness/confession be made unto salvation according to Romans 10:8-10 "prior to water baptism" according to your 4 step plan and still be lost? Your 4 step gospel plan is full of holes and doesn't hold water.

 

[Elihoenai]

I understand the passage differently. We cannot become Christians by acting like one. This happens when we turn the gospel into law. Do this first, and God will do this...and so on. But God changes our hearts of stone into hearts of love in the new birth. So from that point on we do all the things Christians do by nature. One thing we do is obey Christ. But it is not mechanical and legalistic, it is in love for Christ.
“Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.” (Romans 13:10) (KJV 1900)

Matthew 7:21-23 King James Version (KJV)

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


Amen!!! The Lawless has never at anytime known or obeyed Elohim/God and has never known the Gospel.

Amen - what does it mean?

 

[Bobby Jo]

Regarding this Topic, -- it would seem to propose that "water baptism" makes a person "spiritual". And I don't discount that prospect, and even Paul said that -- presumably AFTER water baptism --, the good which he would he does not, but that which he wouldn't he does.

And my point is, water baptism is not a CURE-ALL, as there is no man I know who after water baptism still does not sin. So what is apparently a "symbol" is not a "solution". -- The "solution" is only found after death.

But many who profess "religion" agglom onto doctrines to apparently justify their righteousness, when the ONLY righteousness is through Jesus and HIS forgiveness of our sins, daily as it may be, and through knowing GOD's word so that we may not sin.


Bobby Jo

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

That is what I ave been saying for what Jesus meant when talking to Nicodemus. He talked about how sons of God were born into the kingdom of God to how it will be after His ascension in being born of the Spirit.



Nope. As Jesus explained to Nicodemus, believing in Him is how one is saved and water baptism wasn't even mention during that explanation to Nicodemus.

Isaiah 59:1Behold, the Lord's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:

"Born of water" is a reference to water baptism.

The new birth consists of two elements Spirit and water.

The role of water is water baptism.
The role of the Spirit is the Spirit's word, the Bible that instructs men on how to be saved through water baptism. Therefore those men that obey the Spirit's instructions are said to be born again...BY THE WORD (1 Peter 1:23) begat by the word (James 1:18) begotten thorugh the gospel (1 Corinthians 4:14)

John 3:5--------------Spirit++++++++++water>>>>>>>>>>in the kingdom
Eph 5:26------------the word+++++++laver of water>>>>>>>cleansed
Tts 3:5---------------Holy Ghost+++++laver of water>>>>>>>saved
1Cor12:13-----------Spirit++++++++baptized>>>>>>>>>>>in the body

In these four 'born again' verses, both elements are present that leads to salvation.

 

[Ezra]

A FLOOD of confusion.

amen to that and we wonder why we have such division

 

[Bobby Jo]

"Born of water" is a reference to water baptism.
...

Sin is sin, regardless of "baptism". It seems the greater WEIGHT is whether we have a sufficient grasp of Scripture so that we may not sin.


But if we need to "justify" our faith, we can always say: WE WERE BAPTIZED! It's certainly easier than OBEDIENCE.
Bobby Jo

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

John 3:5, 1 Corinthians 12:13 and Titus 3:5 say nothing at all about "water baptism." *Read 1 Corinthians 12:13 again. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. This is clearly Spirit baptism, not water baptism. In John 3:5, Jesus said "born of water and the Spirit," not born of baptism. In John 4:10, Jesus said, "If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, ‘Give Me a drink,’ you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water.” In John 4:14, Jesus said, "but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life." In John 7:37-39, Jesus said - "If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink. 38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified." *See how this all fits together perfectly? :) Once again, The word "washing" in the Strong's Greek Concordance with Vine's Number 3067 - (Loutron) "a bath, a laver" is used *metaphorically of the Word of God, as the instrument of spiritual cleansing,* Ephesians 5:26; and Titus 3:5, of the "washing of regeneration." *So once again, to automatically read "baptism" into John 3:5 simply because it mentions "water" is biased and unwarranted.



John 3:5-----------Spirit++++++++++++++water>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>in the kingdom - *no mention of baptism.
John 7:38,39------Spirit++++++++++++++living water>>>>>>>>>>>those BELIEVING IN HIM would receive
John 4:10,14------drink++++++++++++++water/living water>>everlasting life
1 Cor 12:13-------Spirit++++++++++++++Spirit/baptized>>>>>>>>>into one body/drink into one Spirit
Titus 3:5----------not by works of righteousness which we have done++++++but according to His mercy He saved us>>>>>>>through the washing of regeneration/renewing of the Holy Spirit.

So neither Jesus or Paul were referring to baptismal regeneration but to cleansing, which is not accomplished by plain ordinary H20, but by spiritual washing or purification of the soul, accomplished by the Holy Spirit through the Word of God at the moment of salvation (Ephesians 5:26; Titus 3:5; 1 Peter 1:23). The word "water" is used in the Bible as an emblem of the Word of God, and in such uses it is associated with cleansing or washing. (John 15:3; Ephesians 5:26) When we are born again, the Holy Spirit begets new life, divine life, so that we are said to become "partakers of the divine nature" (2 Peter 1:4). The new birth is brought to pass through "incorruptible seed, by the Word of God, which lives and abides forever" (I Peter 1:23), but the Holy Spirit accomplishes the miracle of regeneration.

The two elements in John 3:5 are Spirit and living water, which is in perfect harmony with John 4:10,14; 7:37-39. There is no clear reference to water baptism, except to the natural man, who can only understand natural water. You continue to confuse the picture or symbol of the new birth with the new birth itself.

Oh the irony. You are incapable of seeing anything beyond your biased church doctrine/indoctrination.

As Greek scholar AT Robertson says in regards to water baptism - "A symbol is not the reality, but the picture of the reality."

There is NOTHING in the context of John 3 that links 'water' to water baptism. *You need to properly harmonize scripture with scripture (John 3:5; 4:10,14; 7:37-39) before reaching your conclusion on doctrine.

Baptism is the picture or the symbol of the new birth, not the means of securing it and once again, The word "washing" in the Strong's Greek Concordance with Vine's Number 3067 - (Loutron) "a bath, a laver" is used *metaphorically of the Word of God, as the instrument of spiritual cleansing,* Ephesians 5:26; and Titus 3:5, of the "washing of regeneration."

Various words in the Bible are not always used literally simply because YOU want them to be.

Proper exegesis is words are to be understood in their literal, primary meaning unless something in the context states otherwise. In John 7:38-39 we are explicitly told that water is being used figuratively. But there is nothing in the context of John 3 that water means anything other than literal water or Spirit means anything other than literal Spirit. A few verse later from v5 we have literal use of water again in John 5:23 in the immediate context.
It is purely THEOLOGICAL BIAS, and nothing more, that has you trying to make water something other than water in John 3. You are still trying to change verses to make them conform to your theological bias.

===================

I did a quick internet search and found the following on proper hermeneutics:

http://www.wlsessays.net/files/LillegardHermeneutics.pdf

(1) From the above link: "The literal or proper sense of a word or phrase must always be accepted as the intended sense, unlessthere is an absolute necessity for understanding it figuratively. This is a very important principle for which we have the most practical use, not only in the Bible, but universally. The proper sense has the right of way. Otherwise it would be impossible to be sure of anything."

As I have been saying a word is to be taken at its literal face value unless something in the context proves it is being used figuratively. Nothing in the context shows that either "spirit" or "water" is used figuratively so water refers to the literal water of baptism. If you can make any word in any verse mean whatever you want to, then anyone can do the same thing to any word in any verse they choose and, as the link above says, "it would be impossible to be sure of anything".


=================


There is nothing in the context of Ephesians 5:26 or Titus 3:5 that shows loutron means anything other than a literal laver of water, a baptismal font. You have given no proof the laver is only figurative other than your personal bias against the necessity of water baptism.

John 3:5-------------Spirit++++++++++water>>>>>>>>>>in kingdom
Tts 3:5-----------Holy Ghost+++++++laver of water>>>>>>>saved

Nothing in either context shows that water/laver of water means something figurative.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Jamieson, Fausset, Brown
"with the washing of water — rather as Greek, “with,” or “by the laver of the water,” namely, the baptismal water. So it ought to be translated in Titus 3:5, the only other passage in the New Testament where it occurs"

AT Robertson even admits "The reference here seems to be to the baptismal bath (immersion) of water, “in the bath of water."

Vincent's Word Studies:
Eph 5:26 "washing is properly laver. Note the article, the laver, as something well known. There is no satisfactory evidence for the meaning washing. The allusion is to baptism."

Coffman Comemntary:
The use of the term laver is very fortunate, because the primary meaning of it, in context, is the baptistery, standing in a figure (metonymy) for baptism, for which alone a baptistery is used, and adequately translated as "washing." But please note the significance of this. It is a thundering, emphatic denial of the nonsense that "The washing referred to is wholly spiritual."[13] Is a baptistery needed for that?

But isn't baptism only a symbol? This has been shouted so loudly and so frequently and for so long that many believe it; but it is untrue. Lenski sets the matter straight. Commenting on the affirmation that "Man submits to baptism after the new birth to picture it forth to men," he has this:

Paul excludes this idea in a double way. "God saves us by means of the bath, etc. - this is the bath of regeneration. How can anyone think Paul would say, "God saved us by means of a picture of regeneration? Compare Jesus' own words in John 3:5.[16]
[(13) William Hendrickson, NT Commentary, Titus.]
[(16) RCH Lenski

Ellicott's Cmmentary:
Eph 5:26 "The true rendering is, that He might sanctify it, having cleansed it in the laver of the water in [the] Word. The reference in “the laver of the water” to baptism, is even more unquestionable than in “the laver of regeneration” of Titus 3:5. "

Tts 3:5 " The Greek should be rendered, “by the laver of regeneration,” &c. Then, by means of the laver of regeneration, &c, has God put us into a state of salvation. In other words, He has effected this by means of “baptism” (for the laver here can only signify the baptismal font, and is called the laver of regeneration because it is the vessel consecrated to the use of that sacrament), whereby, in its completeness as a sacrament, the new life in Christ is conveyed. Baptism, then, is the means through which we receive the saving grace of Christ; in its laver we are born again to a new life,"


Peake's Commentary:
Tts 3:5 "...but that God uses baptism as the act with which He associates cleansing from sin. This sacramental doctrine is apostolic (Acts 2:38; Acts 22:16,Galatians 3:27. Ephesians 5:26, 1 Peter 3:21),"

Whedon's Commentary:
Eph 5:26 "Referring, no doubt, to baptism,.."
Tts 3:5 "The washing—Or bath; either the bathing vessel or the act, which could be performed secularly, either by plunging into the water or by the application of water to the person."

Trapp's Complete Commentary:
Tts 3:5 "He saved us by the washing of regeneration] So baptism saveth us, 1 Peter 3:21. It sacramentally saveth, by sealing up salvation to the believer: hence it is called the laver of regeneration."


Henry Alford:
by means of the laver (not washing as AV, which the word cannot mean by any possibility; but always a vessel or pool in which the washing takes place. Here (Tts 3:5) the baptismal font.
The New Testament for English Readers: Containing the Authorized Version ...

Johann Bengel
Tts 3:5 "Laver, not washing as the Eng version, but the place or vessel in which the washing was done..."
The critical English Testament : being an adaptation of Bengel's Gnomon, with numerous notes, showing the precise results of modern criticism and exegesis

John Calvin
Tts 3:5 "By the washing of regeneration I have no doubt that he alludes, at least, to baptism, and even I will not object to have this passage expounded as relating to baptism;..."

Alfred Plummer:
"washing of regeneration" or as the RV more exactly has it "laver of regeneration" signifies he Christian rite of baptism, ought to be regarded as beyond dispute."
The Expositor's Bible

John MacArthur
Tts 3:5 this word for 'washing' can signify the receptacle of washing itself.
The MacArthur Bible Handbook
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