Does "For Ever" mean forever?

[liafailrock]

Hmm, now you see why the version is important...
Ecclesiastes 3:11 King James Version (KJV)
11 He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.

I agree with you here. And I like your scriptures about the nature of hell. Eternal fire = eternal damnation and the context of eternal may also be describing the action of the fire (or damnation). In other words, what I've discovered is that forever is also the action of the fire. It's forever (and in that case all fire is eternal and nothing rises like the Phoenix). Today we'd say "It's burned up forever" is the same as saying "eternal fire". And thus burnt up forever is gone forever like Sodom and Gomorrah yet (metaphorically) their smoke or their torment still rises. The bible says the penalty for sin is death, and it makes no logical sense to redefine the word death as conscious eternal torment. The latter is still life (existence) but in a tormented state. But the intrinsic definition of death or perishing is the extinction of the individual. Further proof is that our Lord Jesus paid the penalty for ALL our sins. The penalty for sins cannot be eternal torment for you see, if that were the case, then Jesus would still have to be in hell in order for us to be forgiven. Since He arose, then we'd still be in our sins (ironically, the apostle Paul stated the OPPOSITE by saying if Christ IS NOT risen from the dead, we'd be in our sins yet). Now which is it? Well, if the penalty for sin is eternal conscious torment, Paul's statement would be in error. But if the penalty for sin is death, that much Jesus Christ accomplished on our behalf. Once the sin was paid, that enables ALL men to be resurrected (as in Adam death came by one man, by Christ all are made alive again). However, if some of those men do not accept the sacrificial lamb of God, they have to bear their own death. They already died in Adam, now given the chance by Christ if rejected they die again (a second death). That death that God decided to use is a purging fire which destroys everything wicked. If they still live in that fire, it ceases to do its work.

Now the whole issue of "forever", the nature of hell, etc rests on another doctrine -- that of an immortal soul. That's another subject but only God is inherently immortal (1 Timothy 6:16) so he grants eternal life via resurrection. If one does not have eternal life, they die and are no more. c.f. the devil's lie (Genesis 3:4-5)

 

[Ezra]

Little Johnny gets his allowance taken away for two weeks. <- That is a TEMPORARY punishment.

Little Johnny gets his allowance taken away for all of eternity. <- That is an EVERLASTING punishment.

Nowhere in the above is Little Johnny being beaten and mercilessly tormented for ever and ever.

Christians need to understand that 'Everlasting Punishment' simply means a PERMANENT SENTENCE as opposed to a TEMPORARY SENTENCE.

Good luck everyone. :cool:

then so people in hell only burn for a period then go to heaven...aww purgatory besides were not dealing with little johnny

 

[Hobie]

I agree with you here. And I like your scriptures about the nature of hell. Eternal fire = eternal damnation and the context of eternal may also be describing the action of the fire (or damnation). In other words, what I've discovered is that forever is also the action of the fire. It's forever (and in that case all fire is eternal and nothing rises like the Phoenix). Today we'd say "It's burned up forever" is the same as saying "eternal fire". And thus burnt up forever is gone forever like Sodom and Gomorrah yet (metaphorically) their smoke or their torment still rises. The bible says the penalty for sin is death, and it makes no logical sense to redefine the word death as conscious eternal torment. The latter is still life (existence) but in a tormented state. But the intrinsic definition of death or perishing is the extinction of the individual. Further proof is that our Lord Jesus paid the penalty for ALL our sins. The penalty for sins cannot be eternal torment for you see, if that were the case, then Jesus would still have to be in hell in order for us to be forgiven. Since He arose, then we'd still be in our sins (ironically, the apostle Paul stated the OPPOSITE by saying if Christ IS NOT risen from the dead, we'd be in our sins yet). Now which is it? Well, if the penalty for sin is eternal conscious torment, Paul's statement would be in error. But if the penalty for sin is death, that much Jesus Christ accomplished on our behalf. Once the sin was paid, that enables ALL men to be resurrected (as in Adam death came by one man, by Christ all are made alive again). However, if some of those men do not accept the sacrificial lamb of God, they have to bear their own death. They already died in Adam, now given the chance by Christ if rejected they die again (a second death). That death that God decided to use is a purging fire which destroys everything wicked. If they still live in that fire, it ceases to do its work.

Now the whole issue of "forever", the nature of hell, etc rests on another doctrine -- that of an immortal soul. That's another subject but only God is inherently immortal (1 Timothy 6:16) so he grants eternal life via resurrection. If one does not have eternal life, they die and are no more. c.f. the devil's lie (Genesis 3:4-5)

Amen, the truth is there in scripture.

 

[logabe]

matthew 25:26 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

the same Greek word is used for 'everlasting' and 'eternal'. if punishment is only temporary then heaven is also temporary. But if eternal life is unending so punishment is unending.

2 corinthians 4:18 "While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal."

same greek word here for 'eternal' as in mt 25:26. eternal is set in contrast to what is temporal. no contrast if eternal means temporal too. same for philemon 1:15

The everlasting in Matthew 25 is talking about age-abiding life not everlasting life. It is also talking
about age-abiding judgment not everlasting judgment. The Greek word is aion and it means age or
eon, which has a beginning and an end.

We still have many ages to come before we enter into Eternal life. The life of the ages was created by
Jesus to bring in the rest of humanity through the age of judgment. God will establish judgment upon
this earth to correct and destroy the OLD MAN in every individual. God calls it the Lake of Fire, because
judgment will burn up the chaff that has most of humanity in bondage to sin. In other words, God will
destroy the evil that is in man through judgment, so they can be released into the glorious liberty of
the children of God (Romans 8:21).

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

The everlasting in Matthew 25 is talking about age-abiding life not everlasting life. It is also talking
about age-abiding judgment not everlasting judgment. The Greek word is aion and it means age or
eon, which has a beginning and an end.

We still have many ages to come before we enter into Eternal life. The life of the ages was created by
Jesus to bring in the rest of humanity through the age of judgment. God will establish judgment upon
this earth to correct and destroy the OLD MAN in every individual. God calls it the Lake of Fire, because
judgment will burn up the chaff that has most of humanity in bondage to sin. In other words, God will
destroy the evil that is in man through judgment, so they can be released into the glorious liberty of
the children of God (Romans 8:21).

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe

Matt 25 is speaking of salvation versus condemnation. Salvation, eternal life is unending as is condemnation. Today we are in the last days, the gospel dispensation and there are no more ages, no more dispensations to come. On a day know one knows Christ will return, there will be a resurrection of both good and evil men, a judgment where there will be eternal separation of the saved from the lost and eternity begins with no end.

===========

2 Corinthians 4:18 "While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal."

Same greek word here for 'eternal' as in Matt 25:26. Eternal is set in contrast to what is temporal. No contrast if eternal means temporal too. Same for Philemon 1:15

 

[Base12]

then so people in hell only burn for a period then go to heaven...aww purgatory besides were not dealing with little johnny

One day the Christian Community will wake up to the fact that Reincarnation is Biblical and was even taught by Jesus.

The Lake of Fire is the Portal back into the Timeline.

Satan hides this fact in order to make Christians appear as ignorant as possible and to make the God of Love look like a hypocrite.

 

[Ezra]

that Reincarnation is Biblical

what was you in your former life a gnat?

 

[Base12]

what was you in your former life a gnat?

What part of the Bible teaches that?

 

[Ezra]

What part of the Bible teaches that?

One day the Christian Community will wake up to the fact that Reincarnation is Biblical and was even taught by Jesus.

 

[Base12]

what was you in your former life a gnat?

What I mean is... Where in the Bible does it say we had a past life as a gnat?

When I use the word 'Reincarnation', I'm not referring to the various beliefs found in other religions.

The Bible has its own version of it and it's extremely detailed as to how it all works.

There are no contradictions and there are no verses that need to be 're-translated' in order to make Reincarnation 'fit better'.

I see everyone here and on other Forums constantly chasing their tails and going around in circles trying to make Hell and the Lake of Fire fit their false views and it never works.

Meanwhile the Christian Community has become an absolute JOKE to the rest of the world because they aren't stupid enough to believe in the FALSE DOCTRINES of 'Eternal Torments' or 'Annihilation' or whatever other idiotic theories people have as to what happens to the Unsaved.

Most of you here have your consciences seared so badly there really is no hope for you whatsoever. As a consequence, the Church will continue to fade into obscurity and Christians will continue to walk away from the Faith unless perhaps the Two Witnesses can show up to straighten some of you out.

Universalism is on the rise because deep down inside people KNOW something isn't right about the current teachings regarding the Unsaved. Sadly, even Universalsim misses the Mark.

You people need to ask yourselves...

What is it about Eternal Torments or Annihilation that you love so much that you are willing to cling to it no matter what God has to say about it?

What is it about Reincarnation that triggers your hatred for Humanity so deeply that you couldn't care less how Biblical it is?

The answer is in your Heart. Let go of the hatred. Learn to Love your enemy like God teaches.

Don't forget...

We are *all* here because we were thrown into the Lake of Fire and given another chance.

Yet you preach that others shouldn't have the same opportunity?

Matthew 18:28
"But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest"

Shame on the so called 'Christian Community'.

READ!

Matthew 18:35
"So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses"

 

[Ezra]

Shame on the so called 'Christian Community'.

shame on your false teachings

 

[logabe]

Matt 25 is speaking of salvation versus condemnation. Salvation, eternal life is unending as is condemnation. Today we are in the last days, the gospel dispensation and there are no more ages, no more dispensations to come. On a day know one knows Christ will return, there will be a resurrection of both good and evil men, a judgment where there will be eternal separation of the saved from the lost and eternity begins with no end.

===========

2 Corinthians 4:18 "While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal."

Same greek word here for 'eternal' as in Matt 25:26. Eternal is set in contrast to what is temporal. No contrast if eternal means temporal too. Same for Philemon 1:15

So what age was Paul in when he made this statement (Ephesians 2:7)

That in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches
of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

Paul was in the same age as we are today (the grace age or the Pentecostal age). The Pentecostal age
will end and the Tabernacle age will be ushered in for a thousand years (Rev. 20:6). After the Tabernacle
age has been completed, then we will see the Great White Throne, where all will see Jesus and bow their
knees and swear their allegiance to God (Isaiah 45:22-23).

22 “Turn to Me, and be saved, all the ends of the earth; for I
am God, and there is no other.
23 I have sworn by Myself, the word has gone forth from My
mouth in righteousness and will not turn back, that to Me every
knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.”

In other words, the ultimate truth will be known in that day, and all will be glad to serve the only true God.
When Jesus died on the tree as a victim, his perfect blood assured everyone would complete their destiny
and become a son of God. Anything less than that, is unacceptable to the Almighty God, because everything
came out of him and in due time everything is going back to him (Romans 11:36).

Most people miss the love that God has for his creation. Some people can die for their friends, some can die
for Mohamad, and even some can die for Jesus, but the only one that can die for his enemies is Jesus. Think
about that LOVE.

While the Jews were shouting crucify him, crucify him, he told the Father forgive them for they know not what
they do. Jesus was the victim and he was the only one that could forgive his enemies and he did. Romans 5:7 &
8 says,

7 “For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps
for the good man someone would dare even to die.
8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while
we were yet sinners (enemies), Christ died for us.”

Wow...

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe

 

[aspen]

Eternity or forever or for ever describe a period of time without change. It is in fact, perfection - whether whole or broken, a state of salvation or damnation. It is no longer a being created - it is finished.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

So what age was Paul in when he made this statement (Ephesians 2:7)

That in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches
of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

Paul was in the same age as we are today (the grace age or the Pentecostal age). The Pentecostal age
will end and the Tabernacle age will be ushered in for a thousand years (Rev. 20:6). After the Tabernacle
age has been completed, then we will see the Great White Throne, where all will see Jesus and bow their
knees and swear their allegiance to God (Isaiah 45:22-23).

22 “Turn to Me, and be saved, all the ends of the earth; for I
am God, and there is no other.
23 I have sworn by Myself, the word has gone forth from My
mouth in righteousness and will not turn back, that to Me every
knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.”

In other words, the ultimate truth will be known in that day, and all will be glad to serve the only true God.
When Jesus died on the tree as a victim, his perfect blood assured everyone would complete their destiny
and become a son of God. Anything less than that, is unacceptable to the Almighty God, because everything
came out of him and in due time everything is going back to him (Romans 11:36).

Most people miss the love that God has for his creation. Some people can die for their friends, some can die
for Mohamad, and even some can die for Jesus, but the only one that can die for his enemies is Jesus. Think
about that LOVE.

While the Jews were shouting crucify him, crucify him, he told the Father forgive them for they know not what
they do. Jesus was the victim and he was the only one that could forgive his enemies and he did. Romans 5:7 &
8 says,

7 “For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps
for the good man someone would dare even to die.
8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while
we were yet sinners (enemies), Christ died for us.”

Wow...

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe

Ephesians 2:7 the "ages to come" refers to the timeless, endless eons of eternity and not to another dispensation to follow the gospel dispensation. It is appointed to man once to die and after this judgment (Hebrews 9:27) therefore salvation cannot be found in some future dispensation nor can salvation be found after death.

Isaiah 45:23; Philippians 2:10 Romans 14:11 does not mean every man will be saved. In Phil 1:10-11 every knee "should" bow and every tongue "should" confess for God knows not all in this life will bow and confess Christ. Yet in Romans 14:11 on judgment day every knee 'shall' bow and every tongue 'shall' confess meaning all, including those that were enemies of Christ will confess Christ as Lord. But this bowing and confessing on judgment day will not bring salvation to those that rejected Christ during their life.

Luke 23:32 on the cross Jesus prayed God to forgive those Jews and Romans who crucified Him. Yet God does not uncondtinally forgive men but conditionally forgives those that repent (Luke 13:3; 2 Peter 3:9). Those Jews on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2) that obeyed the gospel as preached by Peter by repenting and being baptized (Acts 2:38) did have thier sins remitted - forgiven. No other Jews than those who obeyed were forgiven by God.

 

[logabe]

Ephesians 2:7 the "ages to come" refers to the timeless, endless eons of eternity and not to another dispensation to follow the gospel dispensation. It is appointed to man once to die and after this judgment (Hebrews 9:27) therefore salvation cannot be found in some future dispensation nor can salvation be found after death.

Death is temporal. 1st Corinthians 15:26 says,

The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

Do we believe that death will actually be destroyed? Wow! Because Jesus died for the whole world (1st John 2:2), one day
God will destroy death and give life to the whole world. Yes, He will give them life through judgment, just as Isaiah says in
26:9,

9 when your judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants
of the world will learn righteousness.

I believe a person dies once and then if he or she hasn't confessed the Lord Jesus they will @ the Great White Throne. That
will begin their walk with God through their journey of trials and tribulations for their purification. The difference is it would
have been better for them to have accepted him before their death, but because they didn't, they were disqualified for the
1st resurrection (Rev. 20:6). Now they have to go through a long process to get to the Promised Land, which is, them putting
on immortality.


Isaiah 45:23; Philippians 2:10 Romans 14:11 does not mean every man will be saved. In Phil 1:10-11 every knee "should" bow and every tongue "should" confess for God knows not all in this life will bow and confess Christ. Yet in Romans 14:11 on judgment day every knee 'shall' bow and every tongue 'shall' confess meaning all, including those that were enemies of Christ will confess Christ as Lord. But this bowing and confessing on judgment day will not bring salvation to those that rejected Christ during their life.

It does mean every man and woman will confess the Lord Jesus and every knee will bow in submission to God Almighty. It
sounds like we want have any say so, because God is going to do it by Himself. God is swearing that everyone will know
that he is the King of Kings and Lord of Lords, and no one will refute that including His enemies.

Luke 23:32 on the cross Jesus prayed God to forgive those Jews and Romans who crucified Him. Yet God does not uncondtinally forgive men but conditionally forgives those that repent (Luke 13:3; 2 Peter 3:9). Those Jews on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2) that obeyed the gospel as preached by Peter by repenting and being baptized (Acts 2:38) did have thier sins remitted - forgiven. No other Jews than those who obeyed were forgiven by God.

I agree that God does not unconditionally forgive men and women. That's why he created judgment in order to change
their minds, in which, it will cause them to repent. That is what they do @ the Great White Throne. Notice, they confess
and they bow, because they realize that Jesus isn't a fairy tale, but he is the one that will deliver them from mortality. It
would have been better to have recognized it before their death, but God still loves them and He has created a way out
even after death. That is Good News!!!

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe

 

[logabe]

Eternity or forever or for ever describe a period of time without change. It is in fact, perfection - whether whole or broken, a state of salvation or damnation. It is no longer a being created - it is finished.

My point is, the Greek word is aion and it describes an eon or age. An age has a beginning point and an ending point.
The judgment of God has a beginning and an end. Depending on what we have done in our lifetime determines how
long we will stay in correction (judgment). That is called the justice of God. God will keep us in judgment until we have
learned our lesson, because He loves us. Hebrews 12:6 says,

6 for whom the Lord loves he chastens, and scourges
every son whom he receives.

God loves everyone and in due time he will correct everyone in judgment. The ones that didn't accept him in their lifetime
will have to stay in judgment a very long time. That is why all should accept him now, before their present life comes to an
end without calling upon the name of the Lord, so that their sins can be covered before the Great White Throne. If not, they
will be judged out of the Law, according to their works. Matthew 18:25 says,

24 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded
him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had,
and payment to be made.

This is what happened to Adam. The whole world became a slave to sin, because Adam couldn't pay the sin debt that he owed.
So not only did he become a slave, but everything that he owned became a slave also.

Jesus Christ was our redeemer. He was the only one that could restore the loss that Adam suffered. The ones that accept him
will be delivered from their sin debt and will no longer have to stay in jail (judgment). But the ones that didn't accept him will
have to stay in jail until they should pay all that was due unto them. Matthew 18:34-35 says,

34 And the lord was wroth, and delivered him to the jailor,
till he should pay all that was due unto him.
35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if
you from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their
trespasses.

Did you see that? God will put us in judgment until we have paid all that we owe or until it is no longer necessary, because you
have learned your lesson. That tells me there is no such thing as eternal judgment or everlasting judgment, but it is age abiding
judgment, because one day, according to Jesus, it will end. 1st Corinthians 15:28 says,

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall
the Son also himself be subject unto to him that put all things
under him, that God may be all in all.

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I agree that God does not unconditionally forgive men and women. That's why he created judgment in order to change
their minds, in which, it will cause them to repent. That is what they do @ the Great White Throne. Notice, they confess
and they bow, because they realize that Jesus isn't a fairy tale, but he is the one that will deliver them from mortality. It
would have been better to have recognized it before their death, but God still loves them and He has created a way out
even after death. That is Good News!!!

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe

Judgement is not to change minds. There is one judgment and on the one judgment day God will give out sentences (eternal salvation or eternal condemnation) to fit the deeds a person has done, Matthew 25:23-46. The Bible does not teach salvation can be found after death.

 

[Base12]

shame on your false teachings

How about you and Nancy explain what the so called 'False Teaching' is instead of posting rude comments or clicking the Like button in a lazy attempt to appear informed on this subject.

I really wish you so called 'Christians' would actually take responsibility for what you post on these forums.

It's as if you folks here are so used to throwing that ignorant 'your false teachings' comment around so much that you don't even realize the severity of the accusation you are claiming. Those are harsh words that need to be addressed.

Shame on me? Really? Do any of you even consider apologizing for such irresponsible comments?

I hereby challenge you two to back up your claims. Either put up or shut up.

And if you can't prove me wrong then SHAME ON YOU BOTH!

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

2 Thessalonians 1:8 "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:"

There are 2 groups mentioned here that will be in flaming fire those that (1) know not God and those that (2) obey not the gospel of Christ.

2 Thessalonians 1:9 "Who (those that know not God and obeyed not the gospel) shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;"

This verse tells me 2 things about the punishment of those who know not God and obeyed not the gospel of Christ:
(1) the duration of this punishment is everlasting and
(2) the cause of this punishment is the presence of the Lord.

Those that will be saved will be in the presence of the Lord where there is peace, joy, happiness, rest among many other blessings. Those that will be lost, their punishment is not having these blessings of peace, joy and happiness being away from the presence of the Lord. So this punishment of not having peace, joy, happiness will last as long as the presence of the Lord lasts. And the presence of the Lord is eternal, unending.

 

[Ezra]

How about you and Nancy explain what the so called 'False Teaching' is instead of posting rude comments or clicking the Like button in a lazy attempt to appear informed on this subject.

I really wish you so called 'Christians' would actually take responsibility for what you post on these forums.

It's as if you folks here are so used to throwing that ignorant 'your false teachings' comment around so much that you don't even realize the severity of the accusation you are claiming. Those are harsh words that need to be addressed.

Shame on me? Really? Do any of you even consider apologizing for such irresponsible comments?

I hereby challenge you two to back up your claims. Either put up or shut up.

And if you can't prove me wrong then SHAME ON YOU BOTH!

apologizing ? for what ? it was you making the claims that was not Bible .besides its been so long since i read your claims .i lost track perhaps you post your grievances in scripture. maybe i will take time to reply BTW I AM BY FAR A SO CALLED CHRISTIAN . i am a blood bought child of the king