My Lord And Savior Is Not A "SISSIFIED NEEDY JESUS", But HE is a GOD of WRATH!!

[SovereignGrace]

It almost happened with the starfish before he was called down by the preacher.

Not true. I stated my beliefs before I even read his post. Good bye.

 

[Waiting on him]

Not true. I stated my beliefs before I even read his post. Good bye.

If your happy with that then so am I.

 

[Renniks]

, God does not make plans according to man. Nowhere is that found in Scripture.

The word that came to Jeremiah from the Lord: "Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will let you hear my words." So I went down to the potter's house, and there he was working at his wheel. And the vessel he was making of clay was spoiled in the potter's hand, and he reworked it into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to do. (Jeremiah 18:1-4 RSV)
Then the word of the Lord came to me: "O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter has done? says the Lord. Behold, like the clay in the potter's hand, so are you in my hand, O house of Israel. If at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom, that I will pluck up and break down and destroy it, and if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil, I will repent of the evil that I intended to do to it. And if at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom that I will build and plant it, and if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I will repent of the good which I had intended to do to it." (Jeremiah 18:10 RSV)

Jews aren't complaining about Gentiles being saved here. That's not in the passage. What is in the passage? Paul is describing that God is just to judge the world. He is bringing in the theme that all are lost. The person complaining is Paul's way of bringing up arguments that he knew his readers would have, no matter their ethnicity. Which means what? There were both Jews and Gentiles in the church at Rome. They were complaining against God's Sovereignty to judge sinners at will, and that it all glorifies him

That's not what the chapter is even about. It Is about God's faithfulness to Israel, how he brought about the plan of salvation through Israel, in spite of their rebellion. And that salvation is by faith not works.
You want to make it about God's wrath, I get that, but it's about his mercy.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

That's not what the chapter is even about. It Is about God's faithfulness to Israel, how he brought about the plan of salvation through Israel, in spite of their rebellion. And that salvation is by faith not works.
You want to make it about God's wrath, I get that, but it's about his mercy.

That's not Romans 3, you just do not know what you're talking about. Romans 3 is plainly about how the whole world is lost, including the Jews. That's Pauls entire argument, and, that God will judge both Jew and Gentile. I never stated it was about God's wrath, right?

Bro, you're not bringing any valid arguments, and are bringing lots of eisegesis. If you simply read Romans, you'll see what Romans 3 is about. Maybe.

Now, if you're talking about Romans 9 that's not what I was referring to. I was replying to your wrong take on Romans 3.

Are you even paying attention? Romans 9 is another subject, and, it is about people who complain about God's Sovereign right to do what he desires with whomsoever he pleases. In other words, no, he doesn't have to give every single person a vote to get into heaven, that is basically what the objector is complaining about and blaming God for being unjust for finding fault, for judging rightly. The objector isn't complaining about Gentiles being saved in either chapter.

 

[Renniks]

The ironic thing here about the truth of Scripture and Romans 9 is this: Some of you (many actually) complain that it is unfair if God doesn't give every person ever a chance to vote themselves into heaven. They cry and complain, and call God a monster, and those of us who believe it juvenile names and demeaning remarks. That's what Romans 9:20 people do, and it happens on here, other forums, churches &c.

What you really ought to do, rather, is ask yourself why in the world God chose to save wicked sinners, any of them at all, in the first place.

Instead you've turned it on its head, arrogantly, pointing the finger in God's face calling him unfair (which is really "unjust") instead of being humbled that God chose to have mercy on some, and give them eternal life, by grace (undeserved, unearned favor).

Or perhaps we have actually read our entire Bibles and found that God is not who you claim he is. And we have read Romans 9:20 and find it doesn't mean what you think it means. And the same is true of every other verse that you view through your Calvinist lenses.

 

[Renniks]

I would ask you to discontinue this false accusation. Cool?

Um, you just said that the verse applies to us, and now you are denying it?

 

[Renniks]

All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.[John 6:37]

Notice, He said all the Father gives Him, will come to Him. This is set in stone. And these He will never cast out.

Nothing fatalistic here, just missing context. You have to read the whole passage to know who it is who the father give him.

 

[Renniks]

This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.[John 6:39]

Again, He mentions all the Father has given Him, He will lose none of them, but raise them on the last day. This is glorification and the goats will never be glorified.

No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.[John 6:44]

Again, He says no one can come to Him unless drawn by the Father. This is irresistible grace at work in the life of the unbeliever as He draws the rebel sinner to Himself through the Son. This is divine quickening at work.

Again, nothing in the passage about irresistible grace, you read it into the verses. Of course, God draws us all, and that includes those who don't submit. The reason he was emphasizes this to the Jews he was speaking to, was because they had the Torah, they had the teachings of God himself, yet they did not accept Jesus. Actually, Jesus was being evangelistic. He tells them that those who enter must enter through him and they must be taught by God. Cherry picked verses can mean anything if taken by themselves.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

Um, you just said that the verse applies to us, and now you are denying it?

More dishonesty on your part? Yep. You claimed I said it was about me, which I never stated, and two persons called you on it.

 

[Renniks]

re you even paying attention? Romans 9 is another subject,

It's the same subject. Read them together.

 

[Renniks]

More dishonesty on your part? Yep. You claimed I said it was about me, which I never stated, and two persons called you on it.

Oh, good grief. You applied it to the reader. That is you and me.

 

[Renniks]

So they predestine themselves? Gotcha. God can’t do what He wants.

You aren't paying attention. It doesn't say that God irresistibly destines anyone.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

Or perhaps we have actually read our entire Bibles and found that God is not who you claim he is. And we have read Romans 9:20 and find it doesn't mean what you think it means. And the same is true of every other verse that you view through your Calvinist lenses.

I've read my Bible through numerous times, and believed this prior to being Reformed. The objector is like you, complaining against God, calling him unfair. That's very plain to see. Nothing in the text or context has a thing to do with him complaining that God is saving Gentiles. Frankly, that's just plain ignorant and eisegetical. You and many others have a problem with God being Sovereign, doing as he wills.

Oh, and I've yet to see you attempt to explain the text and prove your point. The thing is, you heard what Willie said, and thought it sounded good, so now you're trying to impose it on the text.

Guess what, it isn't in the text.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

Oh, good grief. You applied it to the reader. That is you and me.

That's not how you worded it at all. You came at it with some disdain and ridicule. You were called out for it.

I said it is about you, describes you, as you object to God and are hostile in your mind towards him. I also gave a short treatment of how Scripture is for us, and it is.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

So they predestine themselves? Gotcha. God can’t do what He wants.

He's just trolling now. I have better things to do...

 

[Preacher4Truth]

So they predestine themselves? Gotcha. God can’t do what He wants.

Another thing: Did you know the objector in Romans 3 and Romans 9 was a Jewish dude complaining about Gentiles being saved? Lol!!!!

I mean these guys will come up with anything but what's right there! They are so hostile to God's ways they'll go to any extreme. Exactly zero commentators or scholars read that nonsense into the text.

 

[Renniks]

I've read my Bible through numerous times, and believed this prior to being Reformed. The objector is like you, complaining against God, calling him unfair. That's very plain to see. Nothing in the text or context has a thing to do with him complaining that God is saving Gentiles. Frankly, that's just plain ignorant and eisegetical. You and many others have a problem with God being Sovereign, doing as he wills.

Oh, and I've yet to see you attempt to explain the text and prove your point. The thing is, you heard what Willie said, and thought it sounded good, so now you're trying to impose it on the text.

Guess what, it isn't in the text.

Who is Willie? Nope, didn't get it from Willie. I have zero problem with God being Sovereign, btw. But that isn't Paul's point.

Now, what other O.T. passage does Paul use?

…18Then Moses said, “Please show me Your glory.” 19“I will cause all My goodness to pass in front of you,” the LORD replied, “and I will proclaim My name— the LORD— before you. I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

Context: Moses has an argument with God, and wins. Quite the Calvinist passage (Yes, that was sarcasm. )

12 Moses said to the Lord, “You have been telling me, ‘Lead these people,’ but you have not let me know whom you will send with me. You have said, ‘I know you by name and you have found favor with me.’ 13 If you are pleased with me, teach me your ways so I may know you and continue to find favor with you. Remember that this nation is your people.”

14 The Lord replied, “My Presence will go with you, and I will give you rest.”

15 Then Moses said to him, “If your Presence does not go with us, do not send us up from here. 16 How will anyone know that you are pleased with me and with your people unless you go with us? What else will distinguish me and your people from all the other people on the face of the earth?”

17 And the Lord said to Moses, “I will do the very thing you have asked, because I am pleased with you and I know you by name.”

In contrast to the unmoved mover of Calvinism, God is a personal friend who enjoys talking with us face to face.

11 The Lord would speak to Moses face to face, as one speaks to a friend.

Through the whole first part of Romans 9, Paul has been explaining how God brought about the plan of salvation through Israel, not because they were deserving of it, but because he chose them as his people. And how he uses some of them for special jobs and some for common jobs. Israel is the clay God molds and remolds every time it fights against him. And in spite of his own people asking why he blames him for their rebellion (and believing they were worthy because of their works, as is explained later) God is still patient with them, even though they were vessels that he justly could have destroyed.
And his conclusion has nothing to do with individuals being saved and others rejected.

30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

Who is Willie? Nope, didn't get it from Willie. I have zero problem with God being Sovereign, btw. But that isn't Paul's point.

Now, what other O.T. passage does Paul use?

…18Then Moses said, “Please show me Your glory.” 19“I will cause all My goodness to pass in front of you,” the LORD replied, “and I will proclaim My name— the LORD— before you. I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

Context: Moses has an argument with God, and wins. Quite the Calvinist passage (Yes, that was sarcasm. )

12 Moses said to the Lord, “You have been telling me, ‘Lead these people,’ but you have not let me know whom you will send with me. You have said, ‘I know you by name and you have found favor with me.’ 13 If you are pleased with me, teach me your ways so I may know you and continue to find favor with you. Remember that this nation is your people.”

14 The Lord replied, “My Presence will go with you, and I will give you rest.”

15 Then Moses said to him, “If your Presence does not go with us, do not send us up from here. 16 How will anyone know that you are pleased with me and with your people unless you go with us? What else will distinguish me and your people from all the other people on the face of the earth?”

17 And the Lord said to Moses, “I will do the very thing you have asked, because I am pleased with you and I know you by name.”

In contrast to the unmoved mover of Calvinism, God is a personal friend who enjoys talking with us face to face.

11 The Lord would speak to Moses face to face, as one speaks to a friend.

Through the whole first part of Romans 9, Paul has been explaining how God brought about the plan of salvation through Israel, not because they were deserving of it, but because he chose them as his people. And how he uses some of them for special jobs and some for common jobs. Israel is the clay God molds and remolds every time it fights against him. And in spite of his own people asking why he blames him for their rebellion (and believing they were worthy because of their works, as is explained later) God is still patient with them, even though they were vessels that he justly could have destroyed.
And his conclusion has nothing to do with individuals being saved and others rejected.

30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works.

Hey Jon? Going to file you under ignore. Buh-bye! :)

 

[SovereignGrace]

Again, nothing in the passage about irresistible grace, you read it into the verses. Of course, God draws us all, and that includes those who don't submit. The reason he was emphasizes this to the Jews he was speaking to, was because they had the Torah, they had the teachings of God himself, yet they did not accept Jesus. Actually, Jesus was being evangelistic. He tells them that those who enter must enter through him and they must be taught by God. Cherry picked verses can mean anything if taken by themselves.

If you knew that draw from those verses in John means an effectual drawing then you’d know those He draw come to Him. The Christ said all the Father gives Him WILL come to Him. They WILL come. It’s the same word in John 18:10 when Peter drew his sword and cut Malthus’ ear off. It’s the same word that was used in John 21:11 when Peter drew the net full of fish to the shore. It’s the same word when they dragged Paul out of the temple and locked the door behind him in Acts of the Apostles 21:30. The Greek word is Helko, pronounced hel-koo-o, and it means to literally drag off. It does not mean God literally drags us to Him kicking and screaming, but that He effectually draws us to Himself.

So, did that sword in John 18:10 choose to come(or not) when Peter grabbed it? Did that net choose to come to the shore(or not) as Peter drew(dragged) it to the shore? Of course not. But when Peter laid hold of them, they did what Peter wanted them to do. Just like when God draws us. We do that which He wants us to do. :)

 

[amadeus]

I mean these guys will come up with anything but what's right there! They are so hostile to God's ways they'll go to any extreme. Exactly zero commentators or scholars read that nonsense into the text.

Should we obtain truth from commentators and scholars? What about this?

"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." John 14:26