(Refuting) The (Original Sin) Doctrine!!

[Ernest T. Bass]

We were all born mortal and thus we die because of Adam's sin. Agreed that we didn't inherit Adam's sin, that statement doesn't even make sense to me.

Yes, we all physically die as a CONSEQUENCE of Adam sinning. All do not physically die as a result of INHERITING Adam's sin.

A drunken person crosses the center line hits another vehicle killing those innocent victims. They died as a consequence of the drunken man's sin but did not die having inherited his sin.

 

[Jodi]

Yes, we all physically die as a CONSEQUENCE of Adam sinning. All do not physically die as a result of INHERITING Adam's sin.

A drunken person crosses the center line hits another vehicle killing those innocent victims. They died as a consequence of the drunken man's sin but did not die having inherited his sin.

Romans 5:19 "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."

Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Adam and Eve were created creatures, they were carnal (flesh) and they had a mind of flesh, they were not God. The carnal mind is not subject to the law any law, neither indeed can be. God gave them a commandment knowing full well they were incapable through themselves of being able to keep it.

The punishment of mortality and death is for instructional purposes. God made man weak for a purpose, to make His power known, so that we could know who we are and who He is.

After the fall the carnal mind was placed in bondage to have to serve the flesh in order to live.

Because of that weakness laws had to be put in place for instruction on how to serve the weak flesh in a righteous manner. Laws that man cannot keep through his own self as he has a carnal mind that is not subject to the law.

Can you see why Paul would say that because of the disobedience of one many were made sinners?

The disobedience of one brought forth weak mortal flesh of which laws needed to be instituted to teach the right way to then serve that weak flesh. However man of his own carnal mind is incapable of following even just one letter of the law, so many were made sinners.

Romans 7:We know that the Law is spiritual; but I am a mortal, sold as a slave to sin.

 

[DoveSpirit05]

Hmm, it doesn't seem like we actually do agree, because my understanding is that Peter himself was SATAN-AN ADVERSARY, for having in mind the things of men. He was carnally minded like that of a serpent who is deaf to the word of God and poison is under his tongue. The natural man produces falsehood from his own imagination, as his mind is carnal, ignorant of God. Peter's OWN thoughts were wrong, he thought like a man, so Jesus called him SAW-TAWN, said he was an adversary because of his own thoughts.

Psalms 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies. 4 Their poison is like the poison of a serpent: they are like the deaf adder that stoppeth her ear;

Psalms 140:1 Deliver me, O LORD, from the evil man: preserve me from the violent man; 2 Which imagine mischiefs in their heart; continually are they gathered together for war. 3 They have sharpened their tongues like a serpent; adders' poison is under their lips. Selah.

Matthew 12:34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.

Matthew 15:18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

only thing is pslams is poetic literature!! same as proverbs, job, eccls. speshly proverbs dat uses synthetic parallels a jewish type of poetry. you don't really believe dat new born babies go about speaking lies? their subsistant, they can barely utter a word let alone talk.

and Matthew 12 jesus is addressing the Pharisees coz they were hypocrites!! pompous and self-righteous on the outside but wicked on the inside, and Matthew 15 once again jesus addressing the Pharisees, the Pharisees were so concerned wiv their outward appearance but neglected wat was on the inside hence jesus said 2 them clean the inside of the cup then the outside will be clean!!

 

[DoveSpirit05]

Romans 5:19 "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."

Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Adam and Eve were created creatures, they were carnal (flesh) and they had a mind of flesh, they were not God. The carnal mind is not subject to the law any law, neither indeed can be. God gave them a commandment knowing full well they were incapable through themselves of being able to keep it.

The punishment of mortality and death is for instructional purposes. God made man weak for a purpose, to make His power known, so that we could know who we are and who He is.

After the fall the carnal mind was placed in bondage to have to serve the flesh in order to live.

Because of that weakness laws had to be put in place for instruction on how to serve the weak flesh in a righteous manner. Laws that man cannot keep through his own self as he has a carnal mind that is not subject to the law.

Can you see why Paul would say that because of the disobedience of one many were made sinners?

The disobedience of one brought forth weak mortal flesh of which laws needed to be instituted to teach the right way to then serve that weak flesh. However man of his own carnal mind is incapable of following even just one letter of the law, so many were made sinners.

Romans 7:We know that the Law is spiritual; but I am a mortal, sold as a slave to sin.

adam & eve were not carnal 2 begin with, the canal nature manifested itself after they sinned and born cain and able, A&E were just pure normal beings but the used their (FREE WILL) in the wrong way!! then the carnal sinful nature was passed onto cain and able and onto the rest of humanity.

I agree wiv romans 5 through one man sin entered the world, that is through one mans (using his free will wrongly) 2 den transgress Gods law!!

 

[Jodi]

only thing is pslams is poetic literature!! same as proverbs, job, eccls. speshly proverbs dat uses synthetic parallels a jewish type of poetry. you don't really believe dat new born babies go about speaking lies? their subsistant, they can barely utter a word let alone talk.

and Matthew 12 jesus is addressing the Pharisees coz they were hypocrites!! pompous and self-righteous on the outside but wicked on the inside, and Matthew 15 once again jesus addressing the Pharisees, the Pharisees were so concerned wiv their outward appearance but neglected wat was on the inside hence jesus said 2 them clean the inside of the cup then the outside will be clean!!

My profession is in child development birth to age 5. A BABY doesn't even have enough language to speak a lie, let alone have the mental reasoning YET to create one. Now a 3-4 year old most certainly does. A 3 year old knows that he was told not to eat a cookie until after dinner and that if he got caught eating a cooking he would have a consequence. He ate the cookie and then LIED saying that he didn't so he wouldn't get into trouble, he even used his imagination to say the dog ate the cookie, so the missing cookie would be accounted for.

Psalms is NOT poetic LITERATURE neither is Proverbs..etc.., David was a PROPHET of God speaking the WORD of God. Psalms IS the WORD of GOD, NOT LITERATURE. God didn't anoint David with His Spirit so he could then write literature. Acts quotes Psalms as fulfilled. Throughout the bible beginning in Genesis 6 you are told that it is the IMAGINATION of the heart of man that produces wicked THOUGHTS. You are told that man produces lies out of ignorance and as well for his own gain.

 

[Jodi]

adam & eve were not carnal 2 begin with, the canal nature manifested itself after they sinned and born cain and able, A&E were just pure normal beings but the used their (FREE WILL) in the wrong way!! then the carnal sinful nature was passed onto cain and able and onto the rest of humanity.

I agree wiv romans 5 through one man sin entered the world, that is through one mans (using his free will wrongly) 2 den transgress Gods law!!

Adam and Eve were made of the dust of the earth, they were made FLESH, FLESH and CARNAL are the SAME THING. The word in the NT for FLESH is SARX, 147 times it is translated as FLESH, 10 times unto Paul's letters it is rendered carnal.

Adam and Eve were flesh and therefore they had THE MIND OF FLESH, Paul's words apply to Adam and Eve.

Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

This should be obvious as Adam and Eve didn't obey, they didn't obey because being of a flesh/carnal mind they were not able of their own to be subject to the law of God.

Adam and Eve were made flesh/CARNAL to say that it wasn't until after they sinned that they had FLESH nature is WRONG. They were not GOD, they were created creatures OF FLESH who God gave the breath of life to.

Adam and Eve began with an immortal body of flesh with a flesh mind. That flesh MIND caused them to sin.
The punishment was to take that flesh mind and give it a weak body of flesh that had to serve itself now in order to live. Not only did God change man's flesh to be mortal/weak/able to die, He also placed the whole world under a curse, animals were made wild made devouring beasts, and God brought forth thorns, thistles, weeds, pestilence, drought, famine, flood, fire, all sorts of fears were introduced into the life of man.

 

[Ezra]

Baptism washes away the stain of Ancestral Sin and it is akin to circumcision of the OT, now the infant still has to decide to follow Christ but half of the requirement to being saved is already down

this is not Biblical

 

[DoveSpirit05]

My profession is in child development birth to age 5. A BABY doesn't even have enough language to speak a lie, let alone have the mental reasoning YET to create one. Now a 3-4 year old most certainly does. A 3 year old knows that he was told not to eat a cookie until after dinner and that if he got caught eating a cooking he would have a consequence. He ate the cookie and then LIED saying that he didn't so he wouldn't get into trouble, he even used his imagination to say the dog ate the cookie, so the missing cookie would be accounted for.

Psalms is NOT poetic LITERATURE neither is Proverbs..etc.., David was a PROPHET of God speaking the WORD of God. Psalms IS the WORD of GOD, NOT LITERATURE. God didn't anoint David with His Spirit so he could then write literature. Acts quotes Psalms as fulfilled. Throughout the bible beginning in Genesis 6 you are told that it is the IMAGINATION of the heart of man that produces wicked THOUGHTS. You are told that man produces lies out of ignorance and as well for his own gain.

again that's mans finite opinion!! and scientists even say younger which I don't agree wiv iver!!

they say Children actually know the difference between right and wrong before they reach the age of two, according to new research. Scientists have found that even babies aged between 19 and 21 months understand fairness and can apply it in different situations.

but within in the Christian orthodox theocracy we say its more of a state they come two around 5 or 6 now its just ur opinion against ours but we both now that babies dont go 2 hell coz their innocent, and jesus says u must become like little children 2 enter into Gods kingdom matt 18:3 so out of the 2 of us it looks like our theory is closer 2 being correct!!

2nd david was mostly a king, leader, man of war and many other things!! he was only called a prophet coz he prophesised in pslams a few times dats all,

the word psalms means hymns or songs and does use poetic language that's a (fact) it can be used as a general truth and also to portray a message but its not all 2 be taken as absolute truth as say a historical narrative, yes theirs prophetic messages which are true but we shoudnt use all of it as a rule of thumb.

but if u wanna take the whole thing literally and be consistent wiv ur position then take Psalm 53:1 The fool says in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, and their ways are vile; "there is no one who does good". God looks down from heaven on the sons of men to see if there are any who understand, any who seek God.

is there really know one who does good? last time I checked noah was called perfect and job two 2 name a few, see the contradiction there when taking it literally.

 

[DoveSpirit05]

Adam and Eve were made of the dust of the earth, they were made FLESH, FLESH and CARNAL are the SAME THING. The word in the NT for FLESH is SARX, 147 times it is translated as FLESH, 10 times unto Paul's letters it is rendered carnal.

Adam and Eve were flesh and therefore they had THE MIND OF FLESH, Paul's words apply to Adam and Eve.

Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

This should be obvious as Adam and Eve didn't obey, they didn't obey because being of a flesh/carnal mind they were not able of their own to be subject to the law of God.

Adam and Eve were made flesh/CARNAL to say that it wasn't until after they sinned that they had FLESH nature is WRONG. They were not GOD, they were created creatures OF FLESH who God gave the breath of life to.

Adam and Eve began with an immortal body of flesh with a flesh mind. That flesh MIND caused them to sin.
The punishment was to take that flesh mind and give it a weak body of flesh that had to serve itself now in order to live. Not only did God change man's flesh to be mortal/weak/able to die, He also placed the whole world under a curse, animals were made wild made devouring beasts, and God brought forth thorns, thistles, weeds, pestilence, drought, famine, flood, fire, all sorts of fears were introduced into the life of man.

ive already discussed the sarx issue!! it mostly means flesh of bone!! in the greek same as in most languages but people wanna cling 2 this other meaning more because it appeases their position more, theirs only a couple of descriptions of it meaning sinful nature witch also in the historical context could simply mean a connotation dat the jews used during dat time but tones more descriptions of it meaning flesh of bone!! but people like 2 throw does out and use the interpretation they like instead.

where do get this "flesh nature from"? never said anything of the sort, no such thing. and how could they have had immortal flesh!! they woudnt have died then if they had immortal flesh. can u show me in scripture these things, immortal flesh!! and fleshly mind!!

 

[soul man]

My profession is in child development birth to age 5. A BABY doesn't even have enough language to speak a lie, let alone have the mental reasoning YET to create one. Now a 3-4 year old most certainly does. A 3 year old knows that he was told not to eat a cookie until after dinner and that if he got caught eating a cooking he would have a consequence. He ate the cookie and then LIED saying that he didn't so he wouldn't get into trouble, he even used his imagination to say the dog ate the cookie, so the missing cookie would be accounted for.

Psalms is NOT poetic LITERATURE neither is Proverbs..etc.., David was a PROPHET of God speaking the WORD of God. Psalms IS the WORD of GOD, NOT LITERATURE. God didn't anoint David with His Spirit so he could then write literature. Acts quotes Psalms as fulfilled. Throughout the bible beginning in Genesis 6 you are told that it is the IMAGINATION of the heart of man that produces wicked THOUGHTS. You are told that man produces lies out of ignorance and as well for his own gain.

It is not what you do that makes a sinner, it is what was passed on by Adam that made all human beings sinner's by nature, Genesis 3:15, And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

 

[Bible_Gazer]

self preservation is a part that work in animals and human.
Fight or flight, a way to preserve life.
Our body has a working that when you stop eating the system slows down to preserve the fat storage, so we don't die to quickly.
Anyway, self preservation is in the work with children and adults.
Children when threaten will do what it takes to avoid pain. They may run from you and even lie to you. Adult can do that to.
Self preservation can be controlled in human tho.
We are as I understand, are the only species that will commit suicide, not animals.
We have the word of God to help us to not lie, once we learn that is not permitted.

I don't think the self preservation is a sinful thing created in us, its their to help us to survive.
If you get cut, you take care of the cut so you don't bleed to death.
You feel heat, you draw back to keep from getting burned.
You feel pain you try to fix it and to avoid it next time.
So children since they don't know all the rules, they will do what they can to avoid pain.
They may cry because of discomfort or hungry or just a way of getting what they need or wants.

So is there any truth in what I wrote or just part of it, cause I have gathered this from other people and writings ?
Does self preservation exist in humans ?

 

[Bible_Gazer]

Soooo... when God created Adam's body from the dust before God put a soul into it, was that body sinful flesh ?
When God put the soul into Adam was it a sinful soul ?
What part of Adam was the thinker, the body or the soul ?
What part of the body did God charge with sin, the flesh or the soul ?
Did God make Adam and Eve body to procreate ?
Adam and Eve just created little flesh bodies and God put the soul into that body like Adam right ?
So Adam and Eve can only make little bodies of their own kind that God made it to do, it just a house of clay for the soul to reside in.
That soul is what God is really after and the soul must have a freedom to choose him or not.
By what I have read and figured out about the sin nature is that it is a force and forces the soul to sin, the soul is charged with sin.
How did the soul get a sin nature from God, since God is the one that is giving the souls to babies ? Ecclesiastes 12:7, Isaiah 57:16

Food for thoughts :)

 

[Jodi]

again that's mans finite opinion!! and scientists even say younger which I don't agree wiv iver!!

they say Children actually know the difference between right and wrong before they reach the age of two, according to new research. Scientists have found that even babies aged between 19 and 21 months understand fairness and can apply it in different situations.

but within in the Christian orthodox theocracy we say its more of a state they come two around 5 or 6 now its just ur opinion against ours but we both now that babies dont go 2 hell coz their innocent, and jesus says u must become like little children 2 enter into Gods kingdom matt 18:3 so out of the 2 of us it looks like our theory is closer 2 being correct!!

2nd david was mostly a king, leader, man of war and many other things!! he was only called a prophet coz he prophesised in pslams a few times dats all,

the word psalms means hymns or songs and does use poetic language that's a (fact) it can be used as a general truth and also to portray a message but its not all 2 be taken as absolute truth as say a historical narrative, yes theirs prophetic messages which are true but we shoudnt use all of it as a rule of thumb.

but if u wanna take the whole thing literally and be consistent wiv ur position then take Psalm 53:1 The fool says in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, and their ways are vile; "there is no one who does good". God looks down from heaven on the sons of men to see if there are any who understand, any who seek God.

is there really know one who does good? last time I checked noah was called perfect and job two 2 name a few, see the contradiction there when taking it literally.

again that's mans finite opinion!! and scientists even say younger which I don't agree wiv iver!!

they say Children actually know the difference between right and wrong before they reach the age of two, according to new research. Scientists have found that even babies aged between 19 and 21 months understand fairness and can apply it in different situations.

but within in the Christian orthodox theocracy we say its more of a state they come two around 5 or 6 now its just ur opinion against ours but we both now that babies dont go 2 hell coz their innocent, and jesus says u must become like little children 2 enter into Gods kingdom matt 18:3 so out of the 2 of us it looks like our theory is closer 2 being correct!!

2nd david was mostly a king, leader, man of war and many other things!! he was only called a prophet coz he prophesised in pslams a few times dats all,

the word psalms means hymns or songs and does use poetic language that's a (fact) it can be used as a general truth and also to portray a message but its not all 2 be taken as absolute truth as say a historical narrative, yes theirs prophetic messages which are true but we shoudnt use all of it as a rule of thumb.

but if u wanna take the whole thing literally and be consistent wiv ur position then take Psalm 53:1 The fool says in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, and their ways are vile; "there is no one who does good". God looks down from heaven on the sons of men to see if there are any who understand, any who seek God.

is there really know one who does good? last time I checked noah was called perfect and job two 2 name a few, see the contradiction there when taking it literally.

I guess first off I should say that I don't believe that any part of a man is immortal, as I do not believe such is biblical. I believe that when you die you return to the dust. MAN was made of the dust and MAN returns to the dust. You are alive or you are dead. So babies don't need to be baptized to save them from some sort of punishment after they die. If they die they are dead, they cease to exist like all other humans do when they die.

Let me explain my understanding of a person's freedom to make choices verses a person's individual will as I see those as two separate things. People are given freedoms/rights to make choices, when they are DECIDING on that which they are going to choose, their decision is BASED ON FACTORS not based out of thin air. Such factors that determine an individuals own will include memory, personal experiences, knowledge or lack thereof, their character which is a product of both nature and nurture, individual past and present perceptions. Unless you have had control over every single aspect of who you are, including your own biological makeup, you do not have a "free" will, your will is dependent upon/ is a product of many factors that have been out of your control.

It may also help for you to know that my understanding of scripture is that God calls people unto Him according to His purpose and He has an order to His calling. God past and present hasn't reached out to every single person and they have chosen to have faith or not have faith. God's calling is irrevocable. He has been calling leaders, judges, future kings, who will rule with Christ. The first resurrection are of these, and the second are those who will be resurrected and judged accordingly where they are then called, brought to repentance, as a repentant heart is the work of God's influence in you. ONLY GOD is GOOD, man can do NOTHING of himself. Foolish ignorant men who think they are wise do not have a more powerful influence upon themselves or other foolish gullible humans over that of God's influence. God's influence is more powerful than any worldly influence, WHEN He has chosen to call you.

David was a prophet and He wrote songs of Truth, he wrote songs of praise to the LORD, and he wrote about the future of God's will and plan. David said it exactly right, "there is no one who does good". Jesus tells you, "ONLY GOD IS GOOD".

Take the given truth and apply it so you can understand David's perception correctly. Man can do no good on his own, on his own he is a natural creature who does not know good or evil by his nature, just like a serpent or dog does not know good or evil. Such is something man has to come to know, and God did separate us from the animals giving us that ability. Man can't do it on his own, he is ignorant and he has an imagination that allows him to imagine what the truth is, but the truth comes from God He reveals it unto man, He is the source. Likewise He is the source of all righteousness. God has mercy on us by giving us of the fruits of His Spirit, such as Wisdom, Understanding, Council and Might, Knowledge, love, self-control, kindness, patience...etc.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Romans 5:19 "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."

Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Adam and Eve were created creatures, they were carnal (flesh) and they had a mind of flesh, they were not God. The carnal mind is not subject to the law any law, neither indeed can be. God gave them a commandment knowing full well they were incapable through themselves of being able to keep it.

The punishment of mortality and death is for instructional purposes. God made man weak for a purpose, to make His power known, so that we could know who we are and who He is.

After the fall the carnal mind was placed in bondage to have to serve the flesh in order to live.

Because of that weakness laws had to be put in place for instruction on how to serve the weak flesh in a righteous manner. Laws that man cannot keep through his own self as he has a carnal mind that is not subject to the law.

Can you see why Paul would say that because of the disobedience of one many were made sinners?

The disobedience of one brought forth weak mortal flesh of which laws needed to be instituted to teach the right way to then serve that weak flesh. However man of his own carnal mind is incapable of following even just one letter of the law, so many were made sinners.

Romans 7:We know that the Law is spiritual; but I am a mortal, sold as a slave to sin.

As I posted in an earlier post of mine, Romans 5:19 does NOT say many are UNCONDITIONALLY made sinners by Adam's one sin. No one is UNCONDITIONALLY made a sinner no more than anyone is UNCONDITIONALLY made righteous.

Secondly, Romans 5:19 is a if-then type statement meaning IF Rom 5:19(a) is true all are UNCONDITIONALLY made sinners by Adam's sinning THEN Rom 5:19(b) is also true that same all will be UNCONDITIONALLY be made righteous.........and you have Universalism.

Adam and Eve were accountable to God's law, one law being not eat of a particular tree. They were sinless, innocent until they transgressed God's law then they died spiritually Genesis 2:17.

==============

ROmans 8:7 "Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be."

It (the carnal mind) is not subject to the law of God means the carnal mind refuses to obey, refuses to subject itself to God's law nor can it obey. This does not mean it is impossible for a person to change from a carnal mind to having a spiritual mind that does obey. But as long as one chooses to have a carnal mind he will not obey and cannot obey as long as he continues to have a carnal mind. Even though the man with a canal mind will not subject himself to God's law, he is for certain accountable to God's law.

Also, nowhere does Paul say man is born with a carnal mind. Romans 8:5 one chooses to mind things of the flesh or mind things of the Spirit.


===========

Romans 7:14 does not teach men are born totally depraved. Paul is describing himself as an unbelieving Jew (Saul) and the difficulty living under the OT law. The OT law required strict, flawless law keeping to be justified. Paul is describing the frustration and difficulty the OT law required in perfect law keeping. If one did not keep ALL the OT laws perfectly, flawlessly then the law condemned that person, it showed no mercy. Hence Paul is contrasting the condemnation under the OT law THEN as an unbelieving Jew and attempting to keep the OT law perfectly to "now" being in Christ as a Christian where there is no condemnation, Romans 8:1

Lastly, in the context of Romans 7, Paul said he does that which he hates to do (verse 15) he knows the law is good (verse 16) desires greatly to do good (verse 19) delights in God's law (verse 22) none of which a totally depraved person would do. Hence he is NOT describing the condition of total depravity, NOT describing how men are born.

 

[Jodi]

ive already discussed the sarx issue!! it mostly means flesh of bone!! in the greek same as in most languages but people wanna cling 2 this other meaning more because it appeases their position more, theirs only a couple of descriptions of it meaning sinful nature witch also in the historical context could simply mean a connotation dat the jews used during dat time but tones more descriptions of it meaning flesh of bone!! but people like 2 throw does out and use the interpretation they like instead.

where do get this "flesh nature from"? never said anything of the sort, no such thing. and how could they have had immortal flesh!! they woudnt have died then if they had immortal flesh. can u show me in scripture these things, immortal flesh!! and fleshly mind!!

Adam and Eve had immortal flesh, and then they received mortal flesh and thus with mortal flesh they could die. Jesus was raised with immortal flesh given to him for all eternity. Scripture tells you that Adam was made a living creature, he sinned and God brought forth mortality and Adam died. Jesus died also but his flesh did not see decay, his spirit/mind was quickened/made alive in a body that rose in power, in glory, made immortal for all eternity. According to the FLESH Christ sits on his father David's throne. Jesus was raised from the dead having received the promised Holy Spirit and the promises of the mercies of David.

Humans are created creatures, they are one type of flesh that God had made, fish and birds have their own kind of flesh. Each creature that God made functions according to how God designed them to function. Humans function according to the human mind/brain God designed. God set humans a part from all other creatures He had made, they were made to learn from God, to become creatures that exist in His image, exist according to His righteousness living in truth, love and peace. God made our minds/brains capable of having His Spirit dwell therein where we then function according to God's determined purpose that He had for us before He made the world.

God's promise is to be ALL in ALL. God had to make man weak so to make His powers known. If He didn't than we would think all good things came from within ourselves and we would believe ourselves to be gods, we would not know the truth to who we are and we would not know the truth of who God is and what He is the source of. God can't have us living a lie. As God set us a part giving us higher functioning brain with an imagination, it is that imagination that makes us individuals, it is a blessing but at first it is a curse. The imagination starts out ignorant of God and it shows man's foolishness verses God's wisdom. The imagination that is not led by God's Spirit that does not have faith just deceives itself and invents it's own way. The human imagination that is led by God's Spirit having faith in God is a most beautiful thing.

 

[farouk]

Romans 3.23 is very relevant: "All have sinned, and come short of the glory of God".

Hence the great need for the Saviour....

 

[Jodi]

Soooo... when God created Adam's body from the dust before God put a soul into it, was that body sinful flesh ?
When God put the soul into Adam was it a sinful soul ?
What part of Adam was the thinker, the body or the soul ?
What part of the body did God charge with sin, the flesh or the soul ?
Did God make Adam and Eve body to procreate ?
Adam and Eve just created little flesh bodies and God put the soul into that body like Adam right ?
So Adam and Eve can only make little bodies of their own kind that God made it to do, it just a house of clay for the soul to reside in.
That soul is what God is really after and the soul must have a freedom to choose him or not.
By what I have read and figured out about the sin nature is that it is a force and forces the soul to sin, the soul is charged with sin.
How did the soul get a sin nature from God, since God is the one that is giving the souls to babies ? Ecc.12:1, Isa.57:16

Food for thoughts :)

God made Adam out of the dust of the earth, He then gave Adam/human the breath of life making him a living SOUL/CREATURE. There is no scripture that says God made a human body and then gave him a "soul" to go with it. Soul represents living creature. The living soul/human that sins shall die.

The living soul/human was created not knowing good or evil, just as a serpent does not know good or evil. But a serpent, nor any other soul was given a mind/spirit capable of coming to know good and evil except humans. Moreover no other souls except humans were made capable of behaving good and evil. Humans are creatures of influence. We don't choose to choose God, God CALLS us to Him, and as said in a previous post, when God chooses to call an individual His influence supersedes all other influences, we then choose that LIGHT as it is impossible not to, as His influence is more powerful than any other.

 

[farouk]

It is not what you do that makes a sinner, it is what was passed on by Adam that made all human beings sinner's by nature, Genesis 3:15, And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

@soul man Exactly; we are indeed sinners by nature and by choice; we are not sinners because we happen to sin; we sin because we are sinners by nature. Romans 3.23.

 

[farouk]

God made Adam out of the dust of the earth, He then gave Adam/human the breath of life making him a living SOUL/CREATURE. There is no scripture that says God made a human body and then gave him a "soul" to go with it. Soul represents living creature. The living soul/human that sins shall die.

The living soul/human was created not knowing good or evil, just as a serpent does not know good or evil. But a serpent, nor any other soul was given a mind/spirit capable of coming to know good and evil except humans. Moreover no other souls except humans were made capable of behaving good and evil. Humans are creatures of influence. We don't choose to choose God, God CALLS us to Him, and as said in a previous post, when God chooses to call an individual His influence supersedes all other influences, we then choose that LIGHT as it is impossible not to, as His influence is more powerful than any other.

Paul does speak of 'spirit, soul and body' (1 Thess . 5.23).

 

[farouk]

1 Corinthians 15:21 For since by man came death, by MAN came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Isaiah 14:3 And it shall come to pass in the day that the LORD shall give thee rest from thy sorrow, and from thy fear, and from the hard bondage wherein thou wast made to serve,

Romans 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Hebrews 2:15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

When God punished man bringing forth mortality, He brought forth the enmity to the carnal mind, DEATH and the FEAR of it. God caused man to have to serve the flesh in order to live. Such is our bondage and Jesus is the man anointed with God's Spirit who through that Spirit was able to overcome it.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

The first man had an ignorant spirit, whereas the other man was called to righteousness being given the Spirit not by measure, the Spirit of Wisdom, Understanding, Council and Might, Knowledge and Fear of the the LORD. No wonder one failed and one was promised by the LORD not to, as MAN CAN DO NOTHING OF HIMSELF, ONLY GOD IS GOOD.

All of us have been born living in the fear of death, where by our very nature we serve our flesh in order to live. Jesus is our example of a man that was able to overcome, he overcame because God was with him directing all his ways through God's anointing Spirit. By our faith in the operation of God unto him we are set free, promised to be perfected as he was perfected, promised to be JOINT heirs with Christ.

Colossians 212 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Great verses there! :)