(Refuting) The (Original Sin) Doctrine!!

[historyb]

Same old Ad hominems, never can address the issue? and ill still be praying for people like this!!

ok man!!
nice chatting!!

Worry about your own salvation, your lying judging attitude betrays you.

 

[bbyrd009]

Even very small children sin: as soon as they are physically and mentally capable of disobeying their parents, they disobey. And thus they break the fifth commandment.

hmm, I rarely disagree with you Deborah, But I have to here; Disobeying is not a sin, particularly when the “law” is not understood yet, imo

 

[bbyrd009]

Many people in churches today especially the cultic denominations like the catholic church and the watch tower group think that people are born sinners and not only that but even think they have a sinful nature that they can nether eradicate and that all they can do is just (strive) along and hope for the best and if they sin weather wilfully or unwilfully they can just ask God for forgiveness each time and it will be ok. This is wats been taught in most churches 2day people.


Catholics think that babies are born sinners!! Its why they sprinkle babies with water, if that’s the case den why does jesus say in matthew 18:3 you must become like a little child to enter into heaven, in other words babies are innocent.


How can a baby be a sinner? They barely have the capacity to even think let alone even move and yet their supposed have the understanding of wat sin is. Sin is not innate, its not done on impulse, sin is a choice acted out upon our free will which requires an understanding to begin with.


Sin is a premeditated thing which also has to be thought out, its deciding to or not 2 do something iver way the person doing it has an understanding of wat their doing. Yes we have inherited the carnal nature and incorruptible flesh from our ancestors but that’s not a licence. Sin is a choice, we can always choose to or not to regardless of our canal nature!!


Jesus said to the adulterer (Go and sin no more) john 8:5-11 was he commanding the impossible? Not according 2 deu 30:11 my commandments are not far from you. Not according 2 1 corith 10:13 No temptation has overtaken you that is not (common to man). God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability.


Phil 4:13 I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me. Our obligations nether exceed our abilities if so then It would be unfair for God to command something that could nether be achieve.

Nice, imo. Nowhere does scripture say that babies are sinners, that’s pure crap

 

[soul man]

His wife changed him, he follow her thoughts

Ha, your making a general statement talking about sin, can you narrow it down to what caused sin to enter in. We understand Adam, but what was the cause.

 

[Bible_Gazer]

Ha, your making a general statement talking about sin, can you narrow it down to what caused sin to enter in. We understand Adam, but what was the cause.

He heard a lie, it entered into his ears and went into his heart.
He made the wrong choice of following her.
So his freedom to choose her over God caused him to sin.
So Eve tempted him as the Devil tempted her.
Knowledge is tempting to the unknown mind.
Her sin according to Genesis is she accepted a lie from the Devil(ate his corrupt fruit)
Adam ate that lie also.
Listen to me you will not die.

They didn't have a sin nature built into them to make them sin.
That would be against God's nature in creating them, they were in his image.
God created them good but knew it wasn't going to stay that way. Jesus was in the future plan.
So you don't need a sin nature to sin, it happens anyway, not necessary by force.
Don't need to be blaming it on someone else, God judge us individually.

 

[DoveSpirit05]

If we're all born sinners then u might as well open all the prison gates and let the convicts go FREE!! they can't help it, they were born that way!! #@@%!!! if u was 2 be consistent, somebody will reply with circular reasoning I can assure you!!

 

[bbyrd009]

Nice, imo. Nowhere does scripture say that babies are sinners, that’s pure crap

sin implies law, right?

 

[soul man]

If we're all born sinners then u might as well open all the prison gates and let the convicts go FREE!! they can't help it, they were born that way!! #@@%!!! if u was 2 be consistent, somebody will reply with circular reasoning I can assure you!!

Am I reading right, no need for a cross then?

 

[historyb]

If we're all born sinners then u might as well open all the prison gates and let the convicts go FREE!! they can't help it, they were born that way!! #@@%!!! if u was 2 be consistent, somebody will reply with circular reasoning I can assure you!!

Exactly, none of us were or are born sinners. We are not guilty of what Adam did.

 

[Deborah_]

hmm, I rarely disagree with you Deborah, But I have to here; Disobeying is not a sin, particularly when the “law” is not understood yet, imo

We shall have to disagree, then. For to me, disobedience appears to be the most fundamental sin - the sin of Adam and Eve. And they didn't have a law, either...

 

[bbyrd009]

We shall have to disagree, then. For to me, disobedience appears to be the most fundamental sin - the sin of Adam and Eve. And they didn't have a law, either...

ah, they didnt?

but anyway disobedience is surely a bad thing generally speaking, yes, however it is also used to justify what was maybe a bad or selfish motive anyway, sometimes. Disobedience can be a fabulous idea; toward parents maybe not so much

 

[Earburner]

Jesus called Peter Satan, which is the Hebrew word phonetically pronounced SAW-TAWN and it means ADVERSARY. Jesus calls Peter an adversary BECAUSE he had IN MIND the things OF MEN, he was carnally minded, like that of a SERPENT, deaf and blind to God's word.

Thanks for your reply!
Yes, I agree with you.
Peter for example had not yet recieved the Holy Spirit, and therefore being still only "the natural man, satan could not enter him at anytime or any longer.
Even in his denial of Christ three times, we see that he was still of his natural mind.

However, on Pentecost, Peter did recieve the Holy Spirit (born again), and satan could no longer gain entrance because now God the Father and the Son took up permanent residence with in him.

 

[Earburner]

Adam and Eve were created CAPABLE of sinning as they had a human spirit that was not perfect but full of ignorance.

Scripture tells you exactly where sin comes from, the imagination within man's heart.

When mortality was added to the flesh that placed the human spirit in bondage to the flesh where it had to be served now in order to live.

Actually, adam and Eve were created being innocent.
The had not yet eaten of the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
They were niether good nor evil.

 

[Earburner]

Actually, Adam and Eve were created being innocent.
The had not yet eaten of the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
They were niether good nor evil.

 

[Earburner]

Correction:
Peter for example had not yet recieved the Holy Spirit, and therefore being still only "the natural man, satan could enter him at anytime.
Even in his denial of Christ three times, we see that he was still of his natural mind.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

We are told that IN Adam all die, Adam brought forth mortality. Adam transgressed when he did not have weak flesh, when weak flesh/mortality and the need to serve the flesh in order to live passed to all men, sin occurred according to different means, out of bondage from a weak body. The Israelites just didn't receive the law, they also received blessing and cursing according to how they kept the law. Certain sins had certain punishments, some of those punishment equated to being put to death, and we read blessings being given equating to a prolonged life. With or without the law however we all die because by Adam's punishment we were made mortal, which means God placed us in bondage where no man could escape, through his own self sin because his flesh was made weak. The very reason why God forgives us of our sins by one man. Think about it, it is by God's Spirit that we have self control, it is one of the mercies, one of the fruits that God gives to man. Likewise there are other fruits, but God only gives these according to measure, except for Jesus, He was the only mortal to receive of the Spirit not by measure, by such he was obedient to God and went to the cross like a lamb without spot or blemish. Man can do nothing of himself, only God is good, for a man to be perfect he must receive the full measure of the Spirit, and by that perfection he is deserving of eternal life. Jesus is our example our proof of the works of God's Spirit unto a man. If we have faith in this operation of God unto Jesus, we are promised to be made perfect, become a joint heir with Christ being an heir of God, having the fullness of His anointing Spirit.

I think we are missing something just focusing on the word sin or sinner here, as if that is the only word that equates to identifying missing God's mark/ going the wrong way, which is what sin means. For instance people who don't have the law are indeed called wicked/evil/bad, they are called that because they are going the wrong way, which is the same thing as being a sinner.

---All physically die as a consequence of Adam sinning not because all inherit Adam's sin.

---I see that all accountable people are under God's law whether they know it or not or like it or not. One transgression of law makes one a sinner.

---Romans 5:19 "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous." Some want the first part of this verse to say the many are UNCONDITIONALLY made sinners...which it does not say. Nor does it say many are UNCONDITIONALLY made righteous. Men are conditionally made sinners when they choose to sin as when men conditionally have faith then they are made righteous. If the first part of this verse has all men UNCONDITIONALLY made sinners then the second part has that same all men UNCONDITIONALLY made righteous which would be Universalism.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Romans 7:8 "But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead."
Romans 7:9 "For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died."

---Paul was once spiritually alive, but then spiritually died. He was not born with sin, but sin sprang up in him later in life then he died spiritually.

---Paul says without law sin was dead. Yet he was once without the law meaning once in his life (as an infant) sin was dead to him, it had no power over him. Not until he matured intellectually learning right from wrong (Isaiah 7:15-16) then sin sprang up and he died.

---this not only refutes original sin but also OSAS for he went from first being spiritually alive to later being spiritually dead.

 

[Jodi]

---All physically die as a consequence of Adam sinning not because all inherit Adam's sin.

---I see that all accountable people are under God's law whether they know it or not or like it or not. One transgression of law makes one a sinner.

---Romans 5:19 "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous." Some want the first part of this verse to say the many are UNCONDITIONALLY made sinners...which it does not say. Nor does it say many are UNCONDITIONALLY made righteous. Men are conditionally made sinners when they choose to sin as when men conditionally have faith then they are made righteous. If the first part of this verse has all men UNCONDITIONALLY made sinners then the second part has that same all men UNCONDITIONALLY made righteous which would be Universalism.

We were all born mortal and thus we die because of Adam's sin. Agreed that we didn't inherit Adam's sin, that statement doesn't even make sense to me.

My understanding is that the law proved unto man that he of himself can do nothing, that man by himself is not capable of following even one letter of the law, the law just makes sin abound.

Without the mercy of God giving the fruits of His Spirit, man would be left to resemble nothing more than a natural brute beast, as he has but a carnal mind with weak flesh that by his very nature he only knows to serve that flesh in order to survive.

Only God is GOOD, and He is the source to righteousness. I do not believe that God gives a law and then people on their own from within have the ability to keep it.

Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Galatians 5: But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

The law taught man that he is incapable of his own to follow it. The law IS God's righteousness, if we could follow it that would mean that we are our own source of righteousness and thus we would all be gods, and we wouldn't need God or His Spirit working in us.

CHRIST the anointed who received of God's Spirit not by measure teaches us that in order to be without sin you must have God be ALL in you, all the fruits thereof of His Spirit.

Jesus is the fulfillment of Isaiah 11, 42, 45, and 61. He is a man who God CALLED to RIGHTEOUSNESS and had God DIRECT ALL his WAYS. God held his hand and kept him for to be a LIGHT. Jesus said he could do nothing of himself, all his glory he gave to God. Why we are told in Isaiah 42 that God would not give His glory to any other, that glory was God being ALL in Jesus.

Colossians 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Ephesians 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Hebrews 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: 40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. ...29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

As I see it we are justified, declared righteous through Christ. Christ represents a man who was perfected through God being ALL in him. When God is ALL in a man he will remain without sin, our faith is to believe in this operation of God unto Jesus of Nazareth. If we have faith in what God accomplished in Jesus through His Spirit we are promised to be heirs of God also, joint heirs with Christ, having God also be all in us.

1 Corinthians 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

 

[Jodi]

Thanks for your reply!
Yes, I agree with you.
Peter for example had not yet recieved the Holy Spirit, and therefore being still only "the natural man, satan could not enter him at anytime or any longer.
Even in his denial of Christ three times, we see that he was still of his natural mind.

However, on Pentecost, Peter did recieve the Holy Spirit (born again), and satan could no longer gain entrance because now God the Father and the Son took up permanent residence with in him.

Hmm, it doesn't seem like we actually do agree, because my understanding is that Peter himself was SATAN-AN ADVERSARY, for having in mind the things of men. He was carnally minded like that of a serpent who is deaf to the word of God and poison is under his tongue. The natural man produces falsehood from his own imagination, as his mind is carnal, ignorant of God. Peter's OWN thoughts were wrong, he thought like a man, so Jesus called him SAW-TAWN, said he was an adversary because of his own thoughts.

Psalms 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies. 4 Their poison is like the poison of a serpent: they are like the deaf adder that stoppeth her ear;

Psalms 140:1 Deliver me, O LORD, from the evil man: preserve me from the violent man; 2 Which imagine mischiefs in their heart; continually are they gathered together for war. 3 They have sharpened their tongues like a serpent; adders' poison is under their lips. Selah.

Matthew 12:34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.

Matthew 15:18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

 

[Jodi]

Thanks for your reply!
Yes, I agree with you.
Peter for example had not yet recieved the Holy Spirit, and therefore being still only "the natural man, satan could not enter him at anytime or any longer.
Even in his denial of Christ three times, we see that he was still of his natural mind.

However, on Pentecost, Peter did recieve the Holy Spirit (born again), and satan could no longer gain entrance because now God the Father and the Son took up permanent residence with in him.

At Pentecost people received measures of the Holy Spirit where some where made apostles, others prophets, others healers, all for the purpose to bring forth more believers unto the gospel. Together they were as the body of Christ, the man who had received all measures of the Spirit.

People at Pentecost were not made incapable of sin, Paul preached that they needed to be like minded with Christ and watch out to not turn to vain glory esteeming themselves above another brethren according to the gift they received to be above that of a brother's gift. Paul preached that he would not be made perfect apart from those who had died with faith, they would receive it together at Christ's return. Paul taught that our FAITH counts as our righteousness and makes us worthy to obtain the glory of God becoming God's heir and a joint heir with Christ, when Christ returns.