What Mormons Believe--according to a Former BYU Professor

[Prayer Warrior]

Thank you.

If the CC is not The Church spoken of in Scripture then which Church is?

Since i believe the CC is the Church spoken of in Scripture then that means the Mormon church and your church is not sooooo in effect we are debating Mormonism "truth" and your "truth". :)

But I get the gist of what you are saying soooo getting back to the topic of Mormonism.....

I think we can both agree that the Mormon "truth" is not true? I have come to that conclusion because what they believe is not what The Church teaches.

Why do you believe that the Mormon truth is not true?

Mary

I would say that some of their basic doctrine is not biblical. IOW, it clearly contradicts Bible doctrine.

 

[Marymog]

I would say that some of their basic doctrine is not biblical. IOW, it clearly contradicts Bible doctrine.

Hey...we agree on something

I came that conclusion by believing the Church spoken of in Scripture. How did you come to that conclusion?

Who decides what "basic doctrine" is? Don't we have to believe EVERTHING Jesus taught? Basic or not?

 

[Prayer Warrior]

Don't we have to believe EVERTHING Jesus taught?

Yes, we do! Amen!!!

 

[aspen]

Thank you.

In point #1 you say that not any one denomination has the total truth. How can you know that unless YOU know what the truth is? Does that not make YOU the arbiter of truth? What is the criteria for a "legitimate denomination"? Who decides which ones are legitimate? In John 16:13 Christ was talking to his Apostles and his Apostles ONLY and told them that THEY would be guided by the Spirit into truth. And they were!!! :) If EVERY Christian was guided by the Spirit into the Truth then we would all agree with each other and there would not be any denominations. Matthew 18:17 says to take our differences to the Church and the Church (singular) is the final judge on what the truth is. You seem to believe that all churches have some version of the truth and not one (singular) Church has the truth. Scripture says opposite of that belief.

In point #2 you reference John 8:32 to support your theory. In vs 13 the Pharisees were questioning Jesus about his self witness and what he was teaching. In CONTEXT Jesus was telling the Jews in vs 32 if you continue in my word, you are truly my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free. He was telling them don't listen to the Pharisees and if they continue to follow him that they will know (come to learn) the truth of which will set them free. He was not saying that as a disciple of His they (all Christians) would know all truths because they are being guided by the Spirit. You are cherry picking Scripture to fit your theory and taking two verses out of context and trying to make them compatible with each other when they are not.

1 Corinthians in point #3 has NOTHING to do with the subject at hand.

I agree. There is no point in debating this. You believe you know the Truth and everyone (denomination) has a portion of the Truth but no one knows the entire truth. I believe what Scripture says in 1 Timothy 3:15 and Matthew 18:17.


Mary

God told her. Just like every Christian believes, Mary. Honestly, I am not sure anymore why Christians fight about authority anymore - it all boils down to which group heard the true message and, God forbid, if God is speaking to everyone and we are all grabbing tiny bits of truth out of context!

 

[Marymog]

Yes, we do! Amen!!!

Soooo if we have to believe EVERTHING then there is no such thing as "basic doctrine"....It is all just DOCTRINE and we have to believe (practice) ALL of it or we are not truly following in His footsteps and adhering to Scripture.

I see you dodged the other questions...

 

[Marymog]

God told her. Just like every Christian believes, Mary. Honestly, I am not sure anymore why Christians fight about authority anymore - it all boils down to which group heard the true message and, God forbid, if God is speaking to everyone and we are all grabbing tiny bits of truth out of context!

LOL...aspen you do keep me in stitches.

I know YOU and most on this forum only accept their own personal authority and chide those that accept the authority of a church (denomination) on what the truth is HOWEVER Scripture makes it clear that we, on our own, are not the final authority when it comes to the Truth. Each individual Christian is NOT being spoken to by the Spirit and given the true interpretation of Scripture by the Spirit. If we were then we would all agree....and we don't agree....sooooo that means either we are confused or the Spirit is confused. Which is it aspen?

Scripture makes it clear that the church is the pillar and foundation of truth and we are to settle our differences by going to the Church for the final authority. I know you want to throw those two verses out because it doesn't fit your personal belief but they are still there for you to refute of which you have failed to do.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

Soooo if we have to believe EVERTHING then there is no such thing as "basic doctrine"....It is all just DOCTRINE and we have to believe (practice) ALL of it or we are not truly following in His footsteps and adhering to Scripture.

I see you dodged the other questions...

I think I made it pretty clear that I don't want to debate you. Nothing against you. Been there, done that....

 

[amadeus]

It helps if you have good-tasting water. We use a Berkey filter to get all the crine and other junk out, so the water tastes very fresh. If I don't drink plenty of water, my lungs tend to dry out and I have a hard time breathing, so I'm very thankful for good water.

You're like my wife. She always has a container of purified water at her fingertips. Me, I am more like @Grailhunter always having something to drink, but plain unflavored water... not so much. My wife presses me and I do try, but after so many years switching to straight water is unlikely to occur.

 

[Marymog]

I think I made it pretty clear that I don't want to debate you. Nothing against you. Been there, done that....

I am not taking it personal. I am just trying to adhere to Scripture: 1 Peter 3:15

 

[amadeus]

Oh of course I saw the movie. Very good.

I remember reading the books, The Lord of the Ring and The Hobbit as a college student in the 1960's when they were becoming quite popular, but alas no movies. When I was in West Berlin for my year as a student [1969-1970], we had a small gathering of American students in my dormitory room to celebrate the writings of JRR Tolkien. For the occasion I had obtained a very large sheet of paper and carefully drew a detailed map of Middle Earth and displayed it on my wall. [I have long since lost the original, but somewhere lost on my computer there is a picture I took of it.]

Who would have thought that one day someone would actually make movies about them? In The Fellowship of the Ring, my biggest disappointment was that they chose not to include the story of Tom Bombadil and his lovely wife, Goldberry, in the movie.

Every few years I still return and reread the four books. Sometimes I enjoy them almost as I did in my youth. But no more Middle Earth gatherings... not since West Berlin!

 

[Prayer Warrior]

I am not taking it personal. I am just trying to adhere to Scripture: 1 Peter 3:15

You want me to give an answer for the hope that is within me? That’s simple. It’s Jesus Christ in me, the hope of glory.... He is my hope, period!

 

[Marymog]

You want me to give an answer for the hope that is within me? That’s simple. It’s Jesus Christ in me, the hope of glory.... He is my hope, period!

Amen sister.....the rub is that we disagree on what He said AND who has the authority to properly discern what He meant when he said it.

I accept a different authority than you. I accept the Church, which is the pillar and foundation of truth, as that authority. You accept you!

Peace, Mary

 

[Prayer Warrior]

Amen sister.....the rub is that we disagree on what He said AND who has the authority to properly discern what He meant when he said it.

I accept a different authority than you. I accept the Church, which is the pillar and foundation of truth, as that authority. You accept you!

Peace, Mary

I accept God’s Word, Mary. Don’t bear false witness.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

I accept a different authority than you. I accept the Church, which is the pillar and foundation of truth, as that authority. You accept you!

Mary, other Christians look towards God for authority.

Repeatedly bearing false witness and totally ignoring key parts about other people's faith (such as the role of God Himself) does not make a person want to join (generic) your faith. Rather it deters them and makes (generic) you look like not a disciple of Christ.

It doesn't work for Catholics proselytizing Evangelicals.
It doesn't work for Catholics proselytizing LDS Christians.
It doesn't work for Evangelicals proselytizing LDS Christians.
It doesn't work for LDS Christians proselytizing Catholics.
It doesn't work for LDS Christians proselytizing Evangelicals.
...or whatever possible combination of groups you can think of.

 

[Marymog]

I accept God’s Word, Mary. Don’t bear false witness.

Ummmm......I didn't think I was bearing false witness. Do you accept someone else's authority? To the best of my knowledge you never said you belong to a church soooo you must accept your own authority in the interpretation of Gods word.

Or am I wrong? You do belong to a church and accept their authority?

 

[Marymog]

Mary, other Christians look towards God for authority.

Nope...not true.

It takes man to interpret Gods word since it doesn't interpret itself. Every man, woman, denomination etc. looks to their own interpretation of Scripture and believes they have authoritarily and properly interpreted scripture. They either believe their church or they themselves personally can interpret scripture properly.

Your theory isn't true.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Nope...not true.

It takes man to interpret Gods word since it doesn't interpret itself. Every man, woman, denomination etc. looks to their own interpretation of Scripture and believes they have authoritarily and properly interpreted scripture. They either believe their church or they themselves personally can interpret scripture properly.

Your theory isn't true.

Another thing that doesn't work for proselytizing: lying about another person's faith to to their face.

 

[Nancy]

Oh, my, there's seems to be a lot of confusion here, but God is not a God of confusion (1 Cor. 14:23).... So, let me see if I can clear up any misunderstandings about what I believe.

1. I believe that absolute truth exists. I believe that this truth doesn't change and is not influenced by how we see it (or interpret it) and that the Holy Spirit was sent to guide the followers of Jesus Christ into all truth (John 16:13). I don't believe that any one Christian denomination has the total truth, but all legitimate denominations share basic Bible truths and emphasize different aspects of Bible doctrines....

"1. "I believe that absolute truth exists."
WORD!

"I believe that this truth doesn't change "
Agreed, good scripture quotes!
"Truth doesn't ever change,..."

Truth is truth...whether you believe it or not!!
Jesus IS Truth and He does not change.
Hebrews 13:8


"I don't believe that any one Christian denomination has the total truth, but all legitimate denominations share basic Bible truths and emphasize different aspects of Bible doctrines...."

I believe that He will find His people in, IMHO, all Church's. How can we put God inside a "denominational box" ?? He deals with us individually because only He knows our heart and mind. "...and He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him" Hebrews 11:6b. There must be at least a few people in all of these denom.'s that know Him!

His sheep will hear His voice :)
"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: [28] And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."
John 10:27-28

"3. I believe that we will not understand ALL truth here in this life, but now we see in a "glass darkly." HOWEVER, there will come a time when we will know even as we are fully known (1 Cor 13:12)...."

Ah, you said an "Amadeusism" (a glass darkly) lol...good verse find!

Nice post Prayer Warrior!

 

[amadeus]

Soooo lets put your interpretation, Scripture says Christians are guided by the Holy Spirit into the Truth, to the test. The Holy Spirit has shown you a different truth then he has shown @brakelite @amadeus @Prayer Warrior @Nancy and @Jane_Doe22 Martin Luther and John Calvin. All of you can't be right and we KNOW the Holy Spirit isn't confused so clearly your theory (interpretation of that verse) doesn't work. Soooooo someone is confused. Is it the Holy Spirit or one of the aforementioned eight? Is a Priest only right when he agrees with YOUR Truth?

Hello Mary! It has been a long while since we have spoken together here. Since you tagged me as well I guess you won't mind me posting a few words?

You call it "your truth" as if it belonged to @Enoch111 or to me or to any one of the individuals you named on this post. Jesus made it a bit clearer than that when He simply said:

"...I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." John 14:6

So yes then if we agree that Jesus is truth, we are in agreement on that one thing at least.

But then you, if memory serves me right on this, have effectively said that the one verse cited on this thread as being directed to all of us who read it [John 14:26] was actually only directed to the Apostles and therefore we were wrong to presume or state that is applies to us.

But... would you deny that we [the non-Catholics] are to somehow know Jesus? And then in knowing Jesus, to the extent that any of us do, we would then to that extent know the Truth? Would you say that we could not then stand on what Jesus said here because he was speaking only to those Jews which believed on him here as well?

"Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John 8:31-32

Can anyone other than those Jews standing there know Jesus and be made free?

So then does that include you since you are not a Jew and were not standing there? Can you not know Jesus? Can none of us, [Catholic or Not], know Jesus? Can none of us, [Catholic or Not], know the Truth, which is Him?

Was His promise then only to born in the flesh Jews? Or do you definitely make a distinction between what was spoken to the Jew and what was spoken to the [12] Apostles? What of the gentiles?

Can no person, not of pure Jewish blood [carnal blood] claim any of the promises that according to the gospels came out of Jesus' mouth?

What of this Samaritan woman who was at best of mixed Jewish and gentile blood and the words Jesus spoke to her?

"Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water." John 4:10

If we [Jew or Catholic or non-Catholic or gentile] know the gift of God and know who He, [Jesus], is, could we not similarly ask of him and he would give us "living water"? He did not say, 'ask of my Apostles' or 'ask of my designated priests' or 'ask of my anointed men of God' or 'ask of those within some particular church or church group' did He?

But then that woman apparently di have a measure of the blood of Jacob in her veins. She was at least in part, a Jew.

Consider rather then a Roman centurion likely not having a drop of the blood of Jacob in him:

"And saying, Lord, my servant lieth at home sick of the palsy, grievously tormented.
And Jesus saith unto him, I will come and heal him." Matt 8:6-7

Why did Jesus offer and then give to this man what he had asked?

"When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel." Matt 8:10

"And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee. And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour." Matt 8:13

Could we not today come to Jesus in the same manner with a similar great faith like this Roman Centurion gentile and would He do it also unto us...? Or would it be necessary to go to an anointed Apostle or priest of the Church to act as an intermediary in order to get the attention of Jesus in order to receive as the Roman gentile received?

As to the different truths you want to apply to each of the believers you name here on this forum and elsewhere, why do you presume we should all agree absolutely in every detail in the truth we each have come to know?

Remembering that once long ago I was a practicing Catholic, do all Catholics agree absolutely in every detail of the truth that they have come to know? Does even every ordained Catholic priest agree in every detail of the truth with every other Catholic priest? The answer, of course to each of my questions is, No! In this respect the Catholics are very similar to the non-Catholics [no matter which denomination, if any, to which they belong].

One reason for the differences between groups and individuals, [which I know I have explained to you before], is that people who have the Holy Spirit in them do quench the Holy Spirit, at times, mixing the Truth with whatever else they have. You know that Catholics do the same thing.

Even if your church had or has all of the Truth [which I certainly do not believe and I doubt that you do] not everyone in your church agrees on what that truth is. They can say with all of non-Catholic believers that Jesus is Truth, but who knows Jesus well enough to see His face clearly now? Consider Apostle Pauls written words on this:

"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." I Cor 13:12
The Apostle Paul certainly included himself in that "we" that we which "now" was seeing "through a glass, darkly". Each of us, you and I and those others you named, do see Jesus, but who sees him "face to face" clearly in every moment of their walk with Him now? What we see translates in one way into what we understand. All of us who are on the highway of holiness are at different places on that road seeing partially in accord with what we already believe the totality of Truth, that is of Jesus, is. You too have a less than perfect vision. The vision is necessary as Solomon wrote of it 3000 years ago:

"Where there is no vision, the people perish..." Prov 29:18

……….
Sooooo, once again: Who decides what is a lie and what is the Truth of Scripture?
Bible study Mary
[/QUOTE]
I've answered this question for you before as have others on this forum. You disagree with the answers of any not claiming Catholicism [and probably of some Catholics too] but you keep on asking... Well you are allowed to do that as we are allowed to remain apart from you on any answers.

God alone decides!

In each of us in whom the Holy Spirit dwells He sifts through the incoming data to the extent we allow it in order to express to us: the Truth. Since each of us has different needs [determined by God] and each of us [except any who have already overcome as Jesus did] does quench the Holy Spirit some of time in some measure, a great variety of answers are expressed. You will say that your church has only one answer, but without trying to disprove that, I nevertheless doubt it and I doubt you could provide any rationale or any absolute proof that would change
any the hearts and minds here.

According to what is written, we, all of us [you also included in the "us"], do still live by faith. If I deny my faith or you deny your faith, what is it that we have of truth? God knows!

"For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith." Rom 1:17

"Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith." Habakkuk 2:4

 

[Helen]

Nope...not true.

It takes man to interpret Gods word since it doesn't interpret itself. Every man, woman, denomination etc. looks to their own interpretation of Scripture and believes they have authoritarily and properly interpreted scripture. They either believe their church or they themselves personally can interpret scripture properly.

Your theory isn't true.

Oh yes, which man?

Gods word says "Put not your confidences in man."

A man, is a man, is a man. Thats all, a man.

It takes God's Spirit to open up His word.

Which I know is an argument that you love...because you have your pet responses ...like - "If the Holy Spirit interprets the word, how come there are so many interpretations. " Yawn.

One day God will tell us all the answers. Until then we walk by faith, not by man.

....H