John 3:5... YES! ANOTHER BAPTISM THREAD!

[FHII]

Hello all,

Here comes another water baptism thread for you! I'm starting another because I see this scripture coming up in all of them, and I have some things to discuss. I haven't read every post of every thread, so if someone already pointed out, my apologies.

Here's the main text:

John 3:5 KJV
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

First thing, has anyone noticed that baptism isn't directly mentioned? Yet this verse is often quoted as being proof that water baptism is needed. Well, let's hold off on that for now... We will get to whether this is talking about baptism later.

I want to discuss this "water". This water will allow you enter the kingdom of God (which is in men, but that's a bit deep for now). Or at least that's what the verse suggests, and I agree.

But is this talking about physical water or spiritual water?

Let's look at a statement from the next chapter:

John 4:14 KJV
But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him [called living water In verse 10] shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

Jesus here is obviously talking about spiritual or heavenly water. It will be a well within him that brings everlasting life.

That being said, let's revisit John 3:5. If you aren't born of water and the spirit, you cannot enter the kingdom of God.

I have a feeling that in John 3:5 Jesus isn't talking about H2O. It doesn't seem reasonable that he's talking about literal water in chapter 3 and spiritual water in chapter 4 when he's discussing the same goal (entering the kingdom of God and having everlasting life).

If you still have doubts, let's look at something else Jesus said in chapter 3:

John 3:12 KJV
If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

Jesus said himself he is not speaking of earthly things, but heavenly things. So, I submit to you that "water" in verse 3:5 may not have been speaking of water baptism. Why? Because he was speaking of heavenly or spiritual things at this point.

I have more to point out, but for brevity's sake, I will let this stand for now. The bottom line is that I am not convinced John 3:5 has anything to do with water baptism.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Hello all,

Here comes another water baptism thread for you! I'm starting another because I see this scripture coming up in all of them, and I have some things to discuss. I haven't read every post of every thread, so if someone already pointed out, my apologies.

Here's the main text:

John 3:5 KJV
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

First thing, has anyone noticed that baptism isn't directly mentioned? Yet this verse is often quoted as being proof that water baptism is needed. Well, let's hold off on that for now... We will get to whether this is talking about baptism later.

I want to discuss this "water". This water will allow you enter the kingdom of God (which is in men, but that's a bit deep for now). Or at least that's what the verse suggests, and I agree.

But is this talking about physical water or spiritual water?

Let's look at a statement from the next chapter:

John 4:14 KJV
But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him [called living water In verse 10] shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

Jesus here is obviously talking about spiritual or heavenly water. It will be a well within him that brings everlasting life.

That being said, let's revisit John 3:5. If you aren't born of water and the spirit, you cannot enter the kingdom of God.

I have a feeling that in John 3:5 Jesus isn't talking about H2O. It doesn't seem reasonable that he's talking about literal water in chapter 3 and spiritual water in chapter 4 when he's discussing the same goal (entering the kingdom of God and having everlasting life).

If you still have doubts, let's look at something else Jesus said in chapter 3:

John 3:12 KJV
If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

Jesus said himself he is not speaking of earthly things, but heavenly things. So, I submit to you that "water" in verse 3:5 may not have been speaking of water baptism. Why? Because he was speaking of heavenly or spiritual things at this point.

I have more to point out, but for brevity's sake, I will let this stand for now. The bottom line is that I am not convinced John 3:5 has anything to do with water baptism.

Verses to take into consideration as to their meaning:

1 John 5:
6 This is He who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth. 7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one.

1 Peter 3:
18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him.

 

[Enoch111]

The bottom line is that I am not convinced John 3:5 has anything to do with water baptism.

That is correct. That water is neither the water of baptism nor the water of amniotic fluid. It is the WATER OF THE WORD OF GOD (the Gospel).

ORDINARY WATER DOES NOT WASH AWAY SINS
Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. (Ezek 36:25,26)

GOD SANCTIFIES BY THE WASHING OF THE WORD
Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the Word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. (Eph 5:25-27)

GOD'S WORD IS A LIVING WORD THAT PIERCES AND EXPOSES
For the Word of God is quick [alive], and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do. (Heb 4:12,13)

THE GOSPEL IS THE INCORRUPTIBLE SEED OF THE NEW BIRTH
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the Word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the Word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the Word which by the gospel is preached unto you. (1 Pet 1:23-25)

 

[CharismaticLady]

That is correct. That water is neither the water of baptism nor the water of amniotic fluid. It is the WATER OF THE WORD OF GOD (the Gospel).

ORDINARY WATER DOES NOT WASH AWAY SINS
Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. (Ezek 36:25,26)

GOD SANCTIFIES BY THE WASHING OF THE WORD
Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the Word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. (Eph 5:25-27)

GOD'S WORD IS A LIVING WORD THAT PIERCES AND EXPOSES
For the Word of God is quick [alive], and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do. (Heb 4:12,13)

THE GOSPEL IS THE INCORRUPTIBLE SEED OF THE NEW BIRTH
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the Word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the Word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the Word which by the gospel is preached unto you. (1 Pet 1:23-25)

Enoch, that was wonderful and very insightful! Yes, it fits!!! The Spirit, the Word of God and the blood! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!

 

[CharismaticLady]

@Enoch111

I actually got goose bumps!

 

[Hidden In Him]

Hello all,

Here comes another water baptism thread for you! I'm starting another because I see this scripture coming up in all of them, and I have some things to discuss. I haven't read every post of every thread, so if someone already pointed out, my apologies.

Here's the main text:

John 3:5 KJV
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

First thing, has anyone noticed that baptism isn't directly mentioned? Yet this verse is often quoted as being proof that water baptism is needed. Well, let's hold off on that for now... We will get to whether this is talking about baptism later.

I want to discuss this "water". This water will allow you enter the kingdom of God (which is in men, but that's a bit deep for now). Or at least that's what the verse suggests, and I agree.

But is this talking about physical water or spiritual water?

Let's look at a statement from the next chapter:

John 4:14 KJV
But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him [called living water In verse 10] shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

Jesus here is obviously talking about spiritual or heavenly water. It will be a well within him that brings everlasting life.

That being said, let's revisit John 3:5. If you aren't born of water and the spirit, you cannot enter the kingdom of God.

I have a feeling that in John 3:5 Jesus isn't talking about H2O. It doesn't seem reasonable that he's talking about literal water in chapter 3 and spiritual water in chapter 4 when he's discussing the same goal (entering the kingdom of God and having everlasting life).

If you still have doubts, let's look at something else Jesus said in chapter 3:

John 3:12 KJV
If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

Jesus said himself he is not speaking of earthly things, but heavenly things. So, I submit to you that "water" in verse 3:5 may not have been speaking of water baptism. Why? Because he was speaking of heavenly or spiritual things at this point.

I have more to point out, but for brevity's sake, I will let this stand for now. The bottom line is that I am not convinced John 3:5 has anything to do with water baptism.

Oh, Boy! Another Baptism thread! Horray!! Just in time for Thanksgiving!

Well, to keep it short, scripture says Jesus was baptized in water in the Jordan, and that He is the Author and Perfecter of our faith. What that means is He set the perfect pattern for believers to follow. So I'd say water baptism is what Jesus was referring to here, and that it ought to be followed. But I always teach regarding this passage that the reason water baptism should be kept is because it symbolized the death of the old man, whereas coming up out out of the water and being baptized in the Spirit represented the birth of the new one. Therefore it is not the one who goes through mere outward ceremonies who will be justified, but the one who actually lives out what these things represented. That is what Jesus was ultimately teaching here with regard to the believer.

 

[ScottA]

Hello all,

Here comes another water baptism thread for you! I'm starting another because I see this scripture coming up in all of them, and I have some things to discuss. I haven't read every post of every thread, so if someone already pointed out, my apologies.

Here's the main text:

John 3:5 KJV
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

First thing, has anyone noticed that baptism isn't directly mentioned? Yet this verse is often quoted as being proof that water baptism is needed. Well, let's hold off on that for now... We will get to whether this is talking about baptism later.

I want to discuss this "water". This water will allow you enter the kingdom of God (which is in men, but that's a bit deep for now). Or at least that's what the verse suggests, and I agree.

But is this talking about physical water or spiritual water?

Let's look at a statement from the next chapter:

John 4:14 KJV
But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him [called living water In verse 10] shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

Jesus here is obviously talking about spiritual or heavenly water. It will be a well within him that brings everlasting life.

That being said, let's revisit John 3:5. If you aren't born of water and the spirit, you cannot enter the kingdom of God.

I have a feeling that in John 3:5 Jesus isn't talking about H2O. It doesn't seem reasonable that he's talking about literal water in chapter 3 and spiritual water in chapter 4 when he's discussing the same goal (entering the kingdom of God and having everlasting life).

If you still have doubts, let's look at something else Jesus said in chapter 3:

John 3:12 KJV
If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

Jesus said himself he is not speaking of earthly things, but heavenly things. So, I submit to you that "water" in verse 3:5 may not have been speaking of water baptism. Why? Because he was speaking of heavenly or spiritual things at this point.

I have more to point out, but for brevity's sake, I will let this stand for now. The bottom line is that I am not convinced John 3:5 has anything to do with water baptism.

The passage refers to natural birth--as the context is being "born."

But it ultimately refers to:

Genesis 1:7
"And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so."

 

[FHII]

Oh, Boy! Another Baptism thread! Horray!! Just in time for Thanksgiving!

Yea, yea... I know! It's just that I thought it was an important point that is commonly made in all the threads. It was just easier to start a new thread.

Liked your comments, by the way!

 

[Philip James]

Ah yes, another attempt to convince men they do not need the sacrament of Baptism.

St Michael defend us!

Christ is risen!
Alleluia!

 

[FHII]

Ah yes, another attempt to convince men they do not need the sacrament of Baptism.

St Michael defend us!

Christ is risen!
Alleluia!

Phillip James, if you have read my posts on other threads on baptism you will understand that I indeed believe we need to be baptized. My argument is that it doesn't occur with literal water. Yet, I have said that there is nothing wrong with it and that if you are compelled to do so, you should.

My point has always been that literal water baptism is just a symbol of a greater baptism which really is necessary. If you are not baptized into Christ, than your water baptism is just a bath.

Nonetheless, you don't need the bath to be baptized into Christ.

But thank you for your post even though it had nothing to do with John 3:5. This is, after all, the topic.

 

[Philip James]

Nonetheless, you don't need the bath to be baptized into Christ

Said no apostolic community ever...

Enoch, that was wonderful and very insightful! Yes, it fits!!! The Spirit, the Word of God and the blood! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!

Well we could play change the words to whatever we please game or,

We could consider that this IS a refrence not only to Jesus' baptism and crucifixtion, but perhaps to the Church taken from HIS side as the water and blood poured forth as well.

Peace be with you!

 

[Helen]

Hello all,

Here comes another water baptism thread for you! I'm starting another because I see this scripture coming up in all of them, and I have some things to discuss. I haven't read every post of every thread, so if someone already pointed out, my apologies.

Here's the main text:

John 3:5 KJV
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

First thing, has anyone noticed that baptism isn't directly mentioned? Yet this verse is often quoted as being proof that water baptism is needed. Well, let's hold off on that for now... We will get to whether this is talking about baptism later.

I want to discuss this "water". This water will allow you enter the kingdom of God (which is in men, but that's a bit deep for now). Or at least that's what the verse suggests, and I agree.

But is this talking about physical water or spiritual water?

Let's look at a statement from the next chapter:

John 4:14 KJV
But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him [called living water In verse 10] shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

Jesus here is obviously talking about spiritual or heavenly water. It will be a well within him that brings everlasting life.

That being said, let's revisit John 3:5. If you aren't born of water and the spirit, you cannot enter the kingdom of God.

I have a feeling that in John 3:5 Jesus isn't talking about H2O. It doesn't seem reasonable that he's talking about literal water in chapter 3 and spiritual water in chapter 4 when he's discussing the same goal (entering the kingdom of God and having everlasting life).

If you still have doubts, let's look at something else Jesus said in chapter 3:

John 3:12 KJV
If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

Jesus said himself he is not speaking of earthly things, but heavenly things. So, I submit to you that "water" in verse 3:5 may not have been speaking of water baptism. Why? Because he was speaking of heavenly or spiritual things at this point.

I have more to point out, but for brevity's sake, I will let this stand for now. The bottom line is that I am not convinced John 3:5 has anything to do with water baptism.

YES!!!

Agree...AMEN!!

 

[FHII]

Said no apostolic community ever...

Except Peter. And Paul, who didn't put alot of stock in it... Oh and Jesus... He didn't water baptize anyone.

We could consider that this IS a refrence not only to Jesus' baptism and crucifixtion, but perhaps to the Church taken from HIS side as the water and blood poured forth as well

Well, that's the thing... It's symbolic of that. Not the real thing. I like the symbolism, but I care for you and the thing it symbolizes more.

 

[Philip James]

Except Peter

Hardly. Peter went to great lengths to show what this bath truly does for us.

For this is no mere symbol, but actually accomplishes that which it signifies, by the power of the Holy Spirit.

It is here, that we truly die with Christ and rise to new life in Him.

It is here that we are truly washed, 'though our sins be red as scarlet we are made white as snow'

It is here, at our nuptial bath, that we are purified and given our wedding gown that we may approach our Holy Husband, 'without spot or wrinkle'

It is here, that we become sons and daughters of God.


Now for 2000 years the Church has lived and proclaimed this, and with the Spirit she calls all to the living waters!

What spirit do you think might try to convince us that the water is unnecessary?

Peace be with you!

 

[Enoch111]

What spirit do you think might try to convince us that the water is unnecessary?

The water of baptism is NOT unnecessary. But it is simply unnecessary for salvation. It is necessary for sanctification, and it is a commandment of Christ.

If water baptism were necessary for salvation, then Paul would have been the first one to say that he came to BOTH preach the Gospel and to baptize. But he said that he came NOT to baptize but to preach the Gospel. That does not mean that Paul minimized the necessity of baptism. What it does mean is that the water of baptism is not necessary for salvation (as we see throughout the Gospels).

 

[Philip James]

The water of baptism is NOT unnecessary

Hold on to that brother! And stand against those who would make of it an empty symbol...

Peace be with you!

 

[Mungo]

Hello all,

Here comes another water baptism thread for you! I'm starting another because I see this scripture coming up in all of them, and I have some things to discuss. I haven't read every post of every thread, so if someone already pointed out, my apologies.

Here's the main text:

John 3:5 KJV
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

First thing, has anyone noticed that baptism isn't directly mentioned? Yet this verse is often quoted as being proof that water baptism is needed. Well, let's hold off on that for now... We will get to whether this is talking about baptism later.

I want to discuss this "water". This water will allow you enter the kingdom of God (which is in men, but that's a bit deep for now). Or at least that's what the verse suggests, and I agree.

But is this talking about physical water or spiritual water?

Let's look at a statement from the next chapter:

John 4:14 KJV
But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him [called living water In verse 10] shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

Jesus here is obviously talking about spiritual or heavenly water. It will be a well within him that brings everlasting life.

That being said, let's revisit John 3:5. If you aren't born of water and the spirit, you cannot enter the kingdom of God.

I have a feeling that in John 3:5 Jesus isn't talking about H2O. It doesn't seem reasonable that he's talking about literal water in chapter 3 and spiritual water in chapter 4 when he's discussing the same goal (entering the kingdom of God and having everlasting life).

If you still have doubts, let's look at something else Jesus said in chapter 3:

John 3:12 KJV
If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

Jesus said himself he is not speaking of earthly things, but heavenly things. So, I submit to you that "water" in verse 3:5 may not have been speaking of water baptism. Why? Because he was speaking of heavenly or spiritual things at this point.

I have more to point out, but for brevity's sake, I will let this stand for now. The bottom line is that I am not convinced John 3:5 has anything to do with water baptism.

Interesting FHII but I think scripture and history are against you here.

Scripture
Bother before and after John 3:5 baptism's are happening and in real water (JtB in chap 1 and Jesus and disciples immediately after the conversation with Nicodemus. John therefore places the conversation with Nicodemus in a context of baptism with water.

History
From the earliest days the historical evidence shows that baptism was with water, and is to this day in Catholic and Orthodox churches.

Moreover we have an indication of what Jesus meant by John 3:5 in the writings of Irenaeus of Lyon. He was a disciple of Polycarp of Smyrna who in turn was a disciple of John himself.
Irenaeus was therefore only 2 generations away from John when he wrote:
" 'And dipped himself,' says [the Scripture], 'seven times in Jordan.' It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but it served as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions; being spiritually regenerated as new-born babes, even as the Lord has declared: 'Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.'" Irenaeus, Fragment, 34 (A.D. 190). My emboldening

Jesus introduces 'living' water as a metaphor for the Holy Spirit in John 4:10 and 7:38 but I do not see why they should be connected to John 3:5 when you consider the context of that passage.

I see John unfolding the three sacraments on initiation into the Christian life the early part of his gospel - Baptism, Confirmation (Holy Spirit) and Eucharist in John 6 (22-68)

 

[FHII]

Interesting FHII but I think scripture and history are against you here.

Jesus introduces 'living' water as a metaphor for the Holy Spirit in John 4:10 and 7:38 but I do not see why they should be connected to John 3:5 when you consider the context of that passage.

The context of John 3 is what I was talking about. Jesus was speaking of spiritual things, not literal. Thus, I see no context stating he was talking about literal water.

As for history, I am fully aware that baptism has been a tradition from the start, and I am not against such.

 

[Enoch111]

As for history, I am fully aware that baptism has been a tradition from the start, and I am not against such.

That's not what Catholics mean. What they mean is that water baptism regenerates a sinner. It is called baptismal regeneration, and this idea may have started with Justin Martyr. But Titus 3:4-7 refutes that.

 

[Philip James]

. But Titus 3:4-7 refutes that

On the contrary, it upholds it.

Peace!