More Christian tattoo artists a positive development?

[farouk]

Thanks to all who voted so far in the poll!

NB: If you have not yet voted in the poll, please vote now! :)

 

[farouk]

Being a "temple of the Holy Spirit" doesn't mean that we may not get a tattoo, but it does mean that we should defer such big decisions to Him.

@Sabertooth Okay so I should maybe go easy on the Fundies, just a bit, although so often it does involve precisely such a leap of logic, as in: "Because the Bible says (XYZ), therefore this proves that you must not do (ABC - not directly connected with XYZ)."

I would generally agree with your statement; I don't however like 'leaps of logic' by which almost anything — anything — can supposedly be proved / disproved, according to the current propensity for harassment that the critic may be pleased to apply.

But yes, may the Lord be thanked for any Fundie who is honestly trying to proclaim the simple Gospel of God's grace.

 

[farouk]

I can distinctly remember encountering older women in bars with religious tattoos as well which seemed to be particularly out of place; the tattoo that is. ...

One of the churches I go to has three quite elderly women, all widows, who recently went out and got themselves tattoos. They all got them on their ankles ..

@shnarkle The gamut of varied designs of tattoos - religious or otherwise - and the varied contexts of those who permanently wear them is truly immense and your post is right to acknowledge how some religious tattoos can be surprising, when viewed in their particular context.

The other observation which can be made also is the very evident and demonstrable fact that, while ink acquisitions are extremely widespread among younger women as well as men, it has clearly been an established practice for so long now for older women (among them the most conservative of people) that they can and do get injected with total confidence and remain firmly within the bounds of moderation and modesty.

As social and style history, it is really on a par with other aspects of fashion and style, for which time really has moved on and maybe come full circle, in a sense.

For example, 40 years ago if a boy or young man acquired an ear stud it might have been regarded as slightly edgy, style-wise. But if the very conservative local church which my wife and I attend is anything to go by, earrings - in both ears - for young men and boys are so widespread now that a majority of the young men and boys who attend our local church wear earrings and it's not even surmised by anyone at our very conservative local church to be even remotely unusual.

For example, if in 1964 a lady were photographed in a new 1964 style skirt, then if she was aged about 35 then, she would now be about 90 and maybe even a venerable great-grandmother.

Or for another style example, again, if in the late 70s when teen girls and their moms were having 2 or 3 earrings put through each of their earlobes, then a 19 year old and her - say 49 year old mom - who started wearing this style in about 1979 would now be 59 and 89 respectively, and maybe accustomed to have been pursuing this style for 40 years.

So - leaving individual likes and dislikes aside - it's clear likewise that not only women as well as men, but older women of avowedly conservative persuasion as well as younger women can and do indeed get inked with complete confidence and remain firmly within the bounds of moderation and modesty.

(This also logically begs the question of the scope for tattoo parlor work, mentioned in the poll; that is, in some sense embracing the opportunity rather than fighting it. If this all makes some sort of sense?)

Did you look at the poll, above, BTW?

 

[farouk]

@Sabertooth So if I could ask you briefly, what is your impression of the poll results, above, so far?

 

[Sabertooth]

So if I could ask you briefly, what is your impression of the poll results, above, so far?

That a majority of the respondents likely believe that Leviticus 19:28 applies to ALL tattoos, not just those that are "for the dead." That is a reasonable position. (I, myself, am not getting any tattoos for very practical reasons, so I really don't have to wrestle with that question.)

There is one series of tattoos that have life & death consequences attached to them, so these will never come close to that.

Tattoos that are not "for the dead" have a precedent in the existence of benign graven images, but each wo/man should be convinced in his/her own heart [Romans 14:5]. That is also a reasonable position. Such a one is a little more vulnerable to the forbidden tattoos, above, but not as long as they follow the Holy Spirit's leading in their life.

If either position proves to be in error, it is no different than the rest of the errors that we maintain because "[for] now we see in a mirror, dimly,..." [1 Corinthians 13:12].

"Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." Philippians 2:12-13 NKJV

 

[farouk]

That a majority of the respondents likely believe that Leviticus 19:28 applies to ALL tattoos, not just those that are "for the dead." That is a reasonable position. (I, myself, am not getting any tattoos for very practical reasons, so I really don't have to wrestle with that question.)

There is one series of tattoos that have life & death consequences attached to them, so these will never come close to that.

Tattoos that are not "for the dead" have a precedent in the existence benign graven images, but each wo/man should be convinced in his/her own heart [Romans 14:5]. That is also a reasonable position. Such a one is a little more vulnerable to the forbidden tattoos, above, but not as long as they follow the Holy Spirit's leading in their life.

If either position proves to be in error, it is no different than the rest of the errors that we maintain because "[for] now we see in a mirror, dimly,..." [1 Corinthians 13:12].

"Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." Philippians 2:12-13 NKJV

@Sabertooth Wow, thanks, Sir; this was a very comprehensive reply! appreciated. Interesting to see your nuanced reflection on the Leviticus passage. I know that some ppl see the cutting in view there to be along the lines of self flagellation (as with the prophets of Baal before Elijah, in deathly pursuit of idolatry).

I do wonder whether those who are so convinced that, 1) it is both modern day tattoos or similar in view there; 2) feel that the adjacent seeming prohibition to trimming one's beard or something similar is also binding. I wonder in fact if those who want to give, say, a young lady with John 3.16 on her wrist a hard time, are also going to repudiate a preacher who shaves.

The NKJV which you quote from uses the word 'tattoo' in Leviticus 19.28; not every English version does, of course.

 

[Sabertooth]

All of your arguments reasonably challenge that position, but it is really a function of the Holy Spirit to hammer out those details, and in what succession.

If God doesn't plan on them getting a tattoo, now (or ever), I suspect that He will delay addressing their theology on that issue. Rather He is going to address the issues that He deems to be more pressing in their respective lives. ;)

 

[Sabertooth]

I know that some ppl see the cutting in view there to be along the lines of self flagellation (as with the prophets of Baal before Elijah, in deathly pursuit of idolatry).

Piercing beyond the cultural standards of Ezekiel (whatever they were) strike me the same way.

 

[farouk]

All of your arguments reasonably challenge that position, but it is really a function of the Holy Spirit to hammer out those details, and in what succession.

If God doesn't plan on them getting a tattoo, now (or ever), I suspect that He will delay addressing their theology on that issue. Rather He is going to address the issues that He deems to be more pressing in their respective lives. ;)

@Sabertooth Thanks! I don't even look at it as a means of supposedly persuading ppl to change their mind about whether to get tattooed. Rather, I do wonder if ppl have really thought through the implications of giving someone a hard time because of a tattoo; when, in fact, if they do that, then logic would perhaps dictate that there are implications about what else the chapter seems to say and also about the nature of a law-keeping mindset.

(Obviously a Christian who tattoos professionally, part-time, etc., or whatever, is likely to have thought through these matters to some extent...)

 

[Sabertooth]

Thanks! I don't even look at it as a means of supposedly persuading ppl to change their mind about whether to get tattooed.

If God is dealing with someone's marriage & family issues, anger, addictions, finances, health, etc. their tattoo orthodoxy may not be that high on His to-do list, for them. A provisional position will do for now. Sanctification is a dynamic process.

Rather, I do wonder if ppl have really thought through the implications of giving someone a hard time because of a tattoo; when, in fact, if they do that, then logic would perhaps dictate that there are implications about what else the chapter seems to say and also about the nature of a law-keeping mindset.

Christians are inclined to revere the Law after some fashion (in their commitment to love God with all of their heart, soul, mind & strength). Much of the Holy Spirit's ministry is about transforming the letter of the Law into the spirit of the Law [John 14:26] and writing it on our hearts [Hebrews 8:10]. And that isn't going to happen overnight.

 

[farouk]

If God is dealing with someone's marriage & family issues, anger, addictions, finances, health, etc. their tattoo orthodoxy may not be that high on His to-do list, for them, right now. A provisional position will do for now. Sanctification is a dynamic process.

Christians are inclined to revere the Law after some fashion (in their commitment to love God with all of their heart, soul, mind & strength). Much of the Holy Spirit's ministry is about transforming the letter of the Law into the spirit of the Law [John 14:26] and writing it on our hearts [Hebrews 8:10]. And that isn't going to happen overnight.

@Sabertooth Really good points there...

More specifically also, the Leviticus passage might be described to be about Old Testament Jews in the land under the law. A New Testament Christian - according to dispensational thought - is someone for whom the Gospel is the rule of life, rather than the law; from that, the New Testament Christian (dispensationally understood) is likely to be more interested in witness means that are proven to work, than in trying to be an operative to impose the law onto the so called Covenant community. In any case, Hebrews 7.12 says the law was changed; and what we now have according to Hebrews 7.19 is better than the law.

(2c...)

 

[farouk]

Piercing beyond the cultural standards of Ezekiel (whatever they were) strike me the same way.

@Sabertooth Oh you mean that ear and nose piercing is fine with you but not eyebrow, etc.?

A lot of tattoo parlors also offer a piercing service.

 

[farouk]

Me neither, just giving an opinion, so where are the experts? Hahahah

@Josho Did you ever visit a tattoo / piercing parlor yet, there in Australia? Over here you can usually go in freely with no obligation to see the portfolios of artwork. Some of it is faith based artwork, in some places.

 

[Sabertooth]

Added to "Do not commit adultery" and "Do not commit murder" is "Do not entertain adultery" and "Do not entertain murder." The Law is still very much a guideline for us who are saved. (We just have a way to fix it when we fail.) It is incumbent on us to get with the Holy Spirit and reconsider the same Law under a new paradigm. Even if people are wrong about tattoos, they are being faithful to the amount of revelation that they have thus far.

 

[Sabertooth]

Oh you mean that ear and nose piercing is fine with you but not eyebrow, etc.?

Yes, but that is just my take on the matter. Beyond the specifics of Scripture, these types of issues show up in deliverance ministry (including some items of non-pierced jewelry).

 

[shnarkle]

@shnarkle The gamut of varied designs of tattoos - religious or otherwise - and the varied contexts of those who permanently wear them is truly immense and your post is right to acknowledge how some religious tattoos can be surprising, when viewed in their particular context.

This has got me to rethinking the whole issue. Our body is meant to be a temple for God, not ourselves. To adorn it is really not inline with God's purposes. The temple built to house God's presence was adorned on the inside, not the outside. This really goes to anything that is beyond what is necessary. Jewelry, flashy expensive dresses, tattoos etc. are all solely for the purpose of adorning the body. Despite the protestations to the contrary, most people are spending this money on themselves, and anyone who feels the need to advertise their faith rather than by the only means necessary or desired by God; e.g. "bearing fruit", is spotlighting their own fruitless existence.

I used to have rentals, and people would come to fill out the rental applications. Occasionally there would be those who had to point out that they were Christians. I fell for this routine one time, and it never happened again. I don't know how I could have been so stupid. I will never rent to anyone who feels the need to proclaim they are Christians. Same goes for anyone who feels the need to advertise that they're homosexuals, transgenders, etc.

Christ's faith is not seen advertised on billboards or crucifixes hanging from one's ears. It is a mosaic that emerges from those who have had their hearts broken open by the Spirit. There's no telling where they're going, but I know the spirit isn't leading them to or from the local tattoo parlor.

 

[shnarkle]

each wo/man should be convinced in his/her own heart [Romans 14:5]. That is also a reasonable position.

That isn't referring to God's commandments. That is referring to personal preferences. When it comes to God's commandments, God condemns those who do "what was right in their own eyes".

Proverbs 21:2, “Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts.”

Judges 21:25 King James Version (KJV)
25 In those days there was no king in Israel: every man did that which was right in his own eyes.

 

[farouk]

There's no telling where they're going, but I know the spirit isn't leading them to or from the local tattoo parlor.

@shnarkle You have clearly given the matter thought; ty for your response.

I'm thinking for example of the situation that not a few ppl are in.

A Christian lady has a tattoo of a non-Christian ex-bf's name. By God's grace she has now truly moved on from her ex-. (Not an unusual situation, right?) So, given the choice of continuing to bear the name of her ex- (e.g., "Bill") — with all the unwanted suggestions that it brings — she thinks that the tattoo would look better if in different script it said something like "Bible".

So where does she go in order to obtain her "Bible" tattoo, to be superimposed on the existing one?

Answer: To the tattoo parlor.

Comment: We cannot judge the state of heart of fellow-Christians who may be strongly motivated to receive a faith based inking.

(If this makes sense?)

 

[farouk]

Yes, but that is just my take on the matter. ...

@Sabertooth I think it can inherently be a grey area; grey areas are often covered by Romans 14...

 

[farouk]

Even if people are wrong about tattoos, they are being faithful to the amount of revelation that they have thus far.

@Sabertooth Oh I can see it's healthy to keep a tender conscience according to the light that one has from Scripture.

Traditionally and by conviction, dispensationalists tend to believe that the Gospel (which idea can embrace Gospel witness opportunities, etc.) is the rule of the New Testament believer's life.

The Reformed tend to put the law as the supposed rule of the believer's life.

(If this makes sense?)