Why do we need priests?

[Nancy]

Hi Nancy,

1st: Three verses earlier in verse 24 it says, Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. If we are to only follow the testimony of the Holy Spirit then John would be contradicting himself in verse 24. The instruction to let what they’ve heard abide in them implies they received instruction from men. Two chapters later John instructs his readers that listening to the apostles is the criterion for discerning the spirit of truth from the spirit of error: “We are of God. Whoever knows God listens to us, and he who is not of God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error” (1 John 4:6).

According to Matthew 18:15-17 one is not a part of the Christian community unless he adheres to the official teaching of the Church.

“They went out from us, but they were not of us” (1 John 2:19). That passage implies there are true teachers that Christians ought to listen to. And you already know the passages about sound doctrine, teachingings passed down to other good men and false doctrine taught by wolves sooooooo I won't bore you by repeating them. I don't see where your theory holds up to the teachings of scripture. The Council of Jerusalem is also an example of the elders (men) of The Church being our teacher for what is True. Not you deciding. Not me deciding. The Church decides!

2nd: If the Holy Spirit is your teacher and my teacher and Joe's teacher and your neighbors teacher and the Popes teacher and Luther's teacher etc. etc. BUT certainly not the CC teacher; WHY is the Holy Spirit/God telling all of us something different?

3rd: John 20:23 destroys your confession to man theory.

4th: How is it the men who lived closest to the time of Christ are wrong about this and the men who lived 1,500 years later right?

Curious Mary

Well, what I heard/read from the beginning was my little Psalms and Proverbs booklet I received when making my First Holy Communion. Of course, I couldn't wait to read it, not understanding it of course, I was like...6 years old I think?...I thought it was the whole bible in miniature, ha! Didn't get that till the Confirmation. But, as far as "teaching the Word", I recall not one thing that WAS taught. Never understood anything because nobody taught there.
So, "in the beginning" who BUT the Holy Spirit could bring things to light for me? My poor mom had to take care of 7 close in age and hyper kids so, she herself was not much into studies. BTW- 18:15-17 most certainly is used in Protestant Church's. Binding and loosing seems to be something that is closely related to weather or not the Church itself (Pastors, elders, deacons, Christians in general) decides to put someone outside the Church, and treat them as pagans and tax collectors...so, it seems to me that every part of the Church takes part in the removing and the binding and loosing. If someone in the congregation has or is doing something contrary to Gods word...they do not listen to one, two or three...then if they do not listen to the leaders of the Church...pastor, elders...then when the Church puts the out. Does this possibly have anything to do with "binding and loosing"? I do not claim to be a scholar of scripture and the Church. I'm just a run of the mill human, seeking God with openness and honesty. I do not claim to know all things, actually I do NOT know or even fully understand much when it comes to the very deep things of Him...I have so much to learn and not a whole lot of time so, should we go against our own consciences and veer away from what we "first heard"?
Sorry I am not much of a debater here so...go for it. :)

 

[Philip James]

The shepherd is supposed to take care of his sheep, not vice versa.

Are we, all of us, not called to share in and help carry one anothers burdens?

Your observation here:

Women and children can do wondrous things, can't they? They do that, not by being bossy or rebellious against husbands or parents, but by remaining quietly and calmly under proper spiritual authority which isn't present in their homes. Love never fails.

Demonstrates how our behaviour can aid and even correct one who has legitimate authority over us.

Further consider Noah, passed out in his tent..
Which of his sons actions in response were righteous?

Peace be with you!

 

[amadeus]

Well, you got the index of your bible from men who debated what should be in your bible soooooo whether you care or not it doesn't change the FACTS. We rely on men who fulfill Matthew 18:18

Of course we rely on men, hopefully, as they are led by the Holy Spirit. Many are not led at all. Others are led in different degrees according to their own submission to God. This applies to everyone, not only those who hold positions, such as priest, pastor or other minister.

God gave...

"And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:" Eph 4:11-13

Yes, God gave, but as someone has already said on this thread, there should be an end to it. The end is as per verse 13 above. I don't believe we have all come yet to those goals, have we?

Of course, the ministers God gave do mess up in following their own interests at times rather than that which is best for those they should be helping or that which God wants them to do.

Ultimately God is the teacher and He will frequently work through men who have made themselves available for his use. However, when we, in our own walk with God following the lead of the Holy Spirit, recognize a misstep on the part of one of those called men, we should not simply follow them into a ditch, should we?

 

[Marymog]

I hope so. If I make a statement that could cause someone else to stumble, I hope the Holy Spirit would tell those who can hear Him that I'm wrong.

Now you have me a bit confused.

How could you be wrong if the Holy Spirit is telling it to you?

 

[Marymog]

KJV Hebrews 4
We Have a Compassionate High Priest
14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

That passage has NOTHING to do with the subject at hand. That passage doesn't change the fact that putting your eternal destiny in YOUR hands is risky and self destructive.

If you can figure out a way to twist 2 Timothy 2:2 and get rid of those faithful men and the elders who are worthy of double honor (1 Tim. 5:17) who are to teach us..... I will join you!

Good luck

 

[Marymog]

Binding and loosing seems to be something that is closely related to weather or not the Church itself (Pastors, elders, deacons, Christians in general) decides to put someone outside the Church, and treat them as pagans and tax collectors...so, it seems to me that every part of the Church takes part in the removing and the binding and loosing. If someone in the congregation has or is doing something contrary to Gods word...they do not listen to one, two or three...then if they do not listen to the leaders of the Church...pastor, elders...then when the Church puts the out. Does this possibly have anything to do with "binding and loosing"? I do not claim to be a scholar of scripture and the Church. I'm just a run of the mill human, seeking God with openness and honesty. I do not claim to know all things, actually I do NOT know or even fully understand much when it comes to the very deep things of Him...I have so much to learn and not a whole lot of time so, should we go against our own consciences and veer away from what we "first heard"?
Sorry I am not much of a debater here so...go for it. :)

Hi Nancy,

Jesus gave the authority to Peter to bind and loosen and He then gave Peter the keys to the Church. Jesus then gave the other Apostles the authority to bind and loosen also. ONLY the Church elders, the Apostles, had the authority to bind and loosen. He was speaking directly to them and only to them. They then used that authority at the Council of Jerusalem. That decision was binding upon all Christians. The "Christians in general" did not have a vote. There was no debate.

In the Matthew 18 scenario one Christian went to one or two other Christians to debate who was right. The two told that one he was wrong and that one STILL disagreed with the two. They then took it to the elders who decided who was right. It wasn't the Christian in general who decided. It was the elders. There was no debating the elders because they have the authority to bind and loosen.

Jesus also told the Apostles and ONLY the Apostles (not Christians in general) He who receives you receives Me, and he who receives Me receives Him who sent Me.” (Mt 10:40) “He who hears you hears Me, and he who rejects you rejects Me, and he who rejects Me rejects Him who sent Me.” (Lk 10:16) This means that, once again, Jesus is making it clear the Apostles have the authority and if we reject that authority we reject Jesus.

Using your theory which Church should we go to to settle this difference (debate)?

Bible Study Mary

 

[Marymog]

Of course we rely on men, hopefully, as they are led by the Holy Spirit. Many are not led at all. Others are led in different degrees according to their own submission to God. This applies to everyone, not only those who hold positions, such as priest, pastor or other minister.

God gave...

"And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:" Eph 4:11-13

Yes, God gave, but as someone has already said on this thread, there should be an end to it. The end is as per verse 13 above. I don't believe we have all come yet to those goals, have we?

Of course, the ministers God gave do mess up in following their own interests at times rather than that which is best for those they should be helping or that which God wants them to do.

Ultimately God is the teacher and He will frequently work through men who have made themselves available for his use. However, when we, in our own walk with God following the lead of the Holy Spirit, recognize a misstep on the part of one of those called men, we should not simply follow them into a ditch, should we?

Hi Amadeaus,

If we as individuals, while "following the lead of the Holy Spirit" are the ones who decide what a "misstep" is by one of those "called men" who went "into a ditch" then wouldn't that make us, the individual, the final authority on what a "misstep" is?

Curious Mary

 

[amadeus]

Hi Amadeaus,

If we as individuals, while "following the lead of the Holy Spirit" are the ones who decide what a "misstep" is by one of those "called men" who went "into a ditch" then wouldn't that make us, the individual, the final authority on what a "misstep" is?

Curious Mary

We make the final decision for ourselves. The authority is ours. This authority is what men often call "free will".

If we are led by the Holy Spirit to make a decision, then we are right, but if we are not led by the Holy Spirit we are wrong. This is not man's right or wrong, but God's. Men who love God still stumble at times in their walk with God because at times they quench the Holy Spirit and are walking in darkness. When we never again quench the Holy Spirit in us, then, and only then, we will never again stumble in the things of God.

 

[Marymog]

We make the final decision for ourselves. The authority is ours. This authority is what men often call "free will".

If we are led by the Holy Spirit to make a decision, then we are right, but if we are not led by the Holy Spirit we are wrong. This is not man's right or wrong, but God's. Men who love God still stumble at times in their walk with God because at times they quench the Holy Spirit and are walking in darkness. When we never again quench the Holy Spirit in us, then, and only then, we will never again stumble in the things of God.

Nope....your theory is wrong....authority and free will are different. Who taught you that? You should find a new teacher.

The Church elders have the authority to decide what is binding upon all Christians: i.e. Council of Jerusalem, Matthew 18:17, Luke 10:16.

We Christians do not have the free will to make the final decision for ourselves just because we think their decision was wrong.

We have free will to disobey that authority. When we disobey that authority, we are treated as a pagan and tax collector.

Bible Study Mary

 

[amadeus]

You love to disagree more than...? I won't finish that sentence as it was from the wrong place, but I leave the fragment of it for your contemplation.

Nope....your theory is wrong....authority and free will are different. Who taught you that? You should find a new teacher.

The Church elders have the authority to decide what is binding upon all Christians: i.e. Council of Jerusalem, Matthew 18:17, Luke 10:16.

We Christians do not have the free will to make the final decision for ourselves just because we think their decision was wrong.

We have free will to disobey that authority. When we disobey that authority, we are treated as a pagan and tax collector.

Bible Study Mary

​

I learned that from what is written in Joshua as the Holy Spirit opened it to me:​

​

"And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD." Joshua 24:15​

​

And also here from the words of Jesus:​

​

"No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon." Matt 6:24​

​

Only two real choices: God or mammon.​

 

[Marymog]

You love to disagree more than...? I won't finish that sentence as it was from the wrong place, but I leave the fragment of it for your contemplation.

I learned that from what is written in Joshua as the Holy Spirit opened it to me:

"And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD." Joshua 24:15

And also here from the words of Jesus:

"No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon." Matt 6:24

Only two real choices: God or mammon.​

​

Dear sir,

I am not disagreeing with you. I am flat out telling you that you are completely and utterly wrong and your theory is not even logical.

Those passage you quoted having NOTHING.....ABSOULTULY NOTHING....to do with authority and free will.

Twist Scripture all you want....you already know the consequences.

Keeping it real and logical with the use of Scripture.....Mary


PS: 1 John 4:6

 

[amadeus]

Dear sir,

I am not disagreeing with you. I am flat out telling you that you are completely and utterly wrong and your theory is not even logical.

Those passage you quoted having NOTHING.....ABSOULTULY NOTHING....to do with authority and free will.

Twist Scripture all you want....you already know the consequences.

Keeping it real and logical with the use of Scripture.....Mary


PS: 1 John 4:6

I can see that you are offended by where I am in God. I wish it were not so. Just to be clear, I never purposely twist scripture. I am certain that I have at times missed my turn, but I know One who always knows the Way.

 

[ScottA]

That tells me that some people need priests. I think we should hope for the time that they will come to know Jesus so they no longer need people to intercede for them.

Workers for the harvest are for the spreading of the good news of the coming of Christ, that He is come in the flesh; but One is intercessor.

 

[Marymog]

I can see that you are offended by where I am in God. I wish it were not so. Just to be clear, I never purposely twist scripture. I am certain that I have at times missed my turn, but I know One who always knows the Way.

Me? Offended? Because you THINK you are "in God"? Your wish came true....I'm not offended.

No one ever purposely twist Scripture. They just don't have a clue what they are talking about....they only think they do. ;)

 

[ScottA]

Nope....your theory is wrong....authority and free will are different. Who taught you that? You should find a new teacher.

The Church elders have the authority to decide what is binding upon all Christians: i.e. Council of Jerusalem, Matthew 18:17, Luke 10:16.

We Christians do not have the free will to make the final decision for ourselves just because we think their decision was wrong.

We have free will to disobey that authority. When we disobey that authority, we are treated as a pagan and tax collector.

Bible Study Mary

Are you purposing that the "valley of decision" is not for the "multitudes", that Jesus does not "stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears His voice and opens the door, He will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Him?"

Because the authority that you accredit the church elders, does not supersede. That is not their authority.

 

[Nancy]

Hi Nancy,

From whom did you get the table of contents for your bible? Man or direct revelation?

James 5:14-16 is rife with intercessor's.

When I pray for you I am an intercessor.

Soooo I am trying to figure out what you mean when you say "we need no human being to be the intercessor".



Mary

I apologize, in hindsight, the word "intercessor" was used badly. I honestly meant "mediator".

Yes, when we pray for one another (which I sure hope we do, regardless of Church affiliation) this is intercessory prayer - praying on the behalf of others... and we are obeying Jesus :)

 

[amadeus]

No one ever purposely twist Scripture. They just don't have a clue what they are talking about....they only think they do. ;)

Indeed, usually they in delusion because they did not love the Truth. The truth even Jesus as He said, not the church nor even the Church... although loving the Truth will mean loving the Church, but first things first.

 

[Giuliano]

Now you have me a bit confused.

How could you be wrong if the Holy Spirit is telling it to you?

I have had many wrong ideas and may still have. I depend on the Holy Spirit to correct my wrong ideas more than to tell me new ideas. My goal is to rid myself of wrong ideas, not pile up new ones.

The Bible has corrected me. Many things have corrected me; and I believe the Holy Spirit told me I was wrong.

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

It's good for my correction, my reproof. I still may not have the truth; but I've discovered some ideas I had were wrong.

I would suspect it was a spirit of vanity motivating me if I read the Bible and thought it agreed with me all the time. Something that tells me I'm right all the time probably wouldn't be from God.

 

[Giuliano]

Workers for the harvest are for the spreading of the good news of the coming of Christ, that He is come in the flesh; but One is intercessor.

Surely anyone with the Holy Spirit can act as an intercessor. Jesus, surely, but so can others.

Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

1 Timothy 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;

 

[brakelite]

That passage has NOTHING to do with the subject at hand. That passage doesn't change the fact that putting your eternal destiny in YOUR hands is risky and self destructive.

If you can figure out a way to twist 2 Timothy 2:2 and get rid of those faithful men and the elders who are worthy of double honor (1 Tim. 5:17) who are to teach us..... I will join you!

Good luck

That text has everything to do with the subject in hand. He is our High Priest. Jesus, the Son of God. Whose throne of grace is always available and approachable. And when Jesus comes, the question He will ask is... Do I know you? In other words, did you ever come to Me? Did you ever allow me to work in your life? Did you put your faith and trust in Me as your Creator... Saviour... And Friend? Did you believe My word? Did you obey My commandments? Did you feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit the sick the dying the widow the orphan? No you did none of those things, I never knew you.
In whom is your hope Mary? Who do you trust for your salvation? Who is your provider? Who do you go to when you are hurt, doubting, afraid... Who do you seek strength from when you feel guilty, sad, burdened, in pain? Who is the only Mediator between God and man Mary?