Who is Nehushtan? Why isn't Christ Nehushtan? Why hasn't your pastor ever so much as mentioned...

[bbyrd009]

i'm not making any sense there, am i. @amadeus can do that part a lot better than me imo, ok

 

[Nancy]

I also am not familiar with "Nehushtan" although you have hinted I may guilty of it, so I would really like to know what it means.

Do you mean worshipping the cross instead of the one that hung on it? or do you mean worshipping Jesus ( God in the flesh) rather than the risen Christ? Or is it something else?

Makes me think of:

Matthew 23:16-19 KJV
[16] Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!

[17] Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?

[18] And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty.

[19] Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?

... :

"Num 21:6 YHWH sent saraph serpents against the people. They bit the people and many of the Israelites died. 21:7 The people came to Moses and said, “We sinned by speaking against YHWH and against you. Intercede with YHWH to take away the serpents from us!” And Moses interceded for the people."

"Num 21:8 Then YHWH said to Moses, “Make a saraph figure and mount it on a standard. And if anyone who is bitten looks at it, he shall recover.” 21:9 Moses made a copper serpent and mounted it on a standard; and when anyone was bitten by a serpent, he would look at the copper serpent and recover."
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  Nehushtan

2 Kings 18:4 ). The object was believed to be the one Moses fashioned to relieve a plague in the Israelite camp during the Exodus (Numbers 21:8-9 ). The word Nehushtan probably is a play on words in the Hebrew, the word for bronze being very similar. Nehushtan probably was a serpentine nature god worshiped in connection with the Canaanite cults. King Jehoiachin's mother was Nehushta ( 2 Kings 24:8 ) probably in honor of this foreign deity. See Bronze Serpent .

 

[amadeus]

...having to put up with the sins of men directed at Him. Putting up with real hatred from people.

So I say...and Mark agrees with this...that Jesus died because of our sin. He took the wrath of mankind that was directed against God...on Himself.

So we who are also hated along with Him are justified by entering into His life. So then we get treated as Jesus was. Hated for God's sake.

And it is in our growth, that is, as we grow more like him that the our abuse by others will increase as it did with Jesus. Before the hate had increased to where they wanted to kill him he had drawn crowds of thousands. But as he revealed more of his message [seldom fully understood by even his closest followers], we see where many were leaving him. They had heard and received what they considered "good" and did not understand nor want to understand or even listen the rest of his message:

"The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you." John 6:52-53

"From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him." John 6:66

Among the thousands who had early on gathered gladly to hear him and eat of the bread and fishes multiplied for them... there were almost certainly some included in the multitude that called for the release of Barabbas and the death of Jesus:

"But the chief priests and elders persuaded the multitude that they should ask Barabbas, and destroy Jesus.
The governor answered and said unto them, Whether of the twain will ye that I release unto you? They said, Barabbas." Matt 27:20-21

If we are not being persecuted and/or hated as Jesus was, should we not ask, why not?

"Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake." Matt 5:11

"If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also" John 15:19-20

 

[marks]

marks you are the literal reader, and those are Scripture, and the Q is what do they mean to you, ok. To me they mean just what they say, literally, wadr

Ok, but they can't be snipped out, placed in sequence, without respect to the context and overall content of Scripture, now can they?

Shall we look at "No Son of Man may die for another's sins", that's how you say this, is that correct?

I can't quite think of this exact quote in Scripture at the moment, where are you reading this?

Much love!

 

[marks]

It all ‘sounds’ very wise ....but clear as mud to me.

It doesn't sound wise to me at all. Seems to me that these ignore context, and are strung together for effect. But I'm happy to examine the actual passages, not just a phrase or two pieced together.

Much love!

 

[marks]

but see, reagrdless of your definitions,
There is only One Immortal
He who seeks to save his soul/life will lose it
No one has ever gone up to heaven
you and your sons will be here with me
if you dig a pit for others you end up in it yourself
and i could go on, at length, all Scripture, and you can certainly nevermindthatwhatabouthis if you like, yes you have some Paul is read to their destruction, and i am aware of those vv too ok, that are relied upon via the installation of warped definitions that cannot be debated, lest the whole tower fall, right? See if it turns out that i am resurrected after i literally die, and my ego somehow gets a second life, then that is all gravy to me, bl, bc i dont yet know, see, what i will become. Christians, they know, right, but i do not know.

Hi bbyrd,

I really do appreciate your responses to my questions. You've remained a very intriuging person to me, and I think I may understand you much better, though who really knows?

I do hope that you can find the hope in the Gospel. I believe the truth is there, and we can know it, at that it's maybe much better than you may suspect.

There is another place you've mentioned,

1 Corinthians 8:2 "And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know."

You can take that as the flat literal statement it is, outside of it's context, and it becomes immediately self-negating.

Can you know that anyone who knows doesn't know? Of course not! Because the moment you know, you don't know.

Is that really what God is communicating to us?

8:1-3
Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth. And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know. But if any man love God, the same is known of him.

Is it not clear that this is not a negation of all knowledge? Rather that it is the supremecy of love over knowledge?

And if it were a negation of all knowledge, then why even give us the Bible if it only declares we can know nothing, from it, from anything else?

Much love!
Mark

 

[marks]

The word Nehushtan probably is a play on words in the Hebrew, the word for bronze being very similar. Nehushtan probably was a serpentine nature god worshiped in connection with the Canaanite cults. King Jehoiachin's mother was Nehushta ( 2 Kings 24:8 ) probably in honor of this foreign deity. See Bronze Serpent .

That's interesting!

Much love!

 

[bbyrd009]

Ok, but they can't be snipped out, placed in sequence, without respect to the context and overall content of Scripture, now can they?

Shall we look at "No Son of Man may die for another's sins", that's how you say this, is that correct?

I can't quite think of this exact quote in Scripture at the moment, where are you reading this?

Much love!

yes, marks, no reason why they cannot imo, if the sense of the phrase is not changed by the context then the context is irrelevant to the sense of the phrase, right, and look at whatever you like bro, go for it. No, thats not how i say that, that is how Scripture says that?

 

[amadeus]

awesome preacher, ty, now pls address no one has ever gone up to heaven but He Who came down from it and oh you and your sons will be here with me if you would, and teach me something, bein as how youre apparently wantin ta teach, ty

"Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." John 3:10-13

The only one we see as a partaker or a resident of not less than three heavens is the man Jesus. From heaven [where is that?] to hell [where is that?] came Jesus to suffer here as a man and to overcome as a man leading and opening the Way for us to follow. But many presume it
will be at some other time and some other place. [Who is in hell now but everyone who is dead? Who is not dead now? Only those who have received and are walking in and with Jesus. Is anyone moving back forth between heaven [1st or 2nd] and hell now?]


What do we have available to us now? What more will we have available to us once someone says those words over us "dust to dust" and throw the dirt over our faces?

Is not now the time? Is not here the place?

What time do we wait for?
"This is the day [Today!] which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it." Psalm 118:24

"Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls." Matt 11:28-29

And just where is Jesus now? Is not Jesus the Word of God? If He is not in our hearts and growing there, why not?

Do we presume that when we eat His flesh and drink His blood it is all going to our stomach? If we are eating only bread made of grain and wine made from grapes then that is where they going. [Could that be continuing to eat of Nehushtan or...?]

When we really eat his flesh and it is really quickened by the Holy Spirit within us, then where would heaven be? Would we not be moving UP toward God?

We come to Him as a beast, an very unclean beast and we are seeing that first glimpse of Jesus [1st heaven].

But how much has our vision improved when the Holy Spirit in us is allowed to clean out the filth so that we might be clean beasts? [2nd heaven]
Ah but then what remains but the beastly nature which leads us to sin again? Those things within this world that we are that attract us to sin repeatedly?
"For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world" I John 2:16

When those also are gone, then it is 3rd heaven the place where no sin and no beastly natures can be at any time.[3rd heaven]

Everyone who has really repented even one time has moved from hell to 1st heaven although probably all like the ancients children of Israel have kept moving in and out.

Only by the power of the Holy Spirit in us may we enter 2nd heaven where things have been cleaned up. To enter 3rd heaven, [we see brief mentions of it in scripture if we can see them], even those things within us that are attracted toward sinful activities must be overcome.

All three heavens are here and now, but who aside from Jesus has already been a resident of all three?

 

[bbyrd009]

Hi bbyrd,

I really do appreciate your responses to my questions. You've remained a very intriuging person to me, and I think I may understand you much better, though who really knows?

I do hope that you can find the hope in the Gospel. I believe the truth is there, and we can know it, at that it's maybe much better than you may suspect.

There is another place you've mentioned,

1 Corinthians 8:2 "And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know."

You can take that as the flat literal statement it is, outside of it's context, and it becomes immediately self-negating.

Can you know that anyone who knows doesn't know? Of course not! Because the moment you know, you don't know.

Is that really what God is communicating to us?

8:1-3
Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth. And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know. But if any man love God, the same is known of him.

Is it not clear that this is not a negation of all knowledge? Rather that it is the supremecy of love over knowledge?

And if it were a negation of all knowledge, then why even give us the Bible if it only declares we can know nothing, from it, from anything else?

Much love!
Mark

the passage is about those who say they know, marks, and has nothing whatsoever to do with actually knowing i guess. what is it? then becomes not a question, but an answer

 

[bbyrd009]

I do hope that you can find the hope in the Gospel. I believe the truth is there, and we can know it, at that it's maybe much better than you may suspect.

still waiting for that absolute truth from Scripture though, still waiting for that very first one, see. I do hope that you can find one, being as how you have been asked? Was that you? Yesterday or whatever? If not, you are welcome to take it up if you like, or bam keep deflecting, idc. Your sincere hope is truly appreciated tho, k, ty

 

[amadeus]

The way that is handled is simple, stay with The Word of God and not what man says. God's Word, line upon line, chapter by chapter, keeping to the flow, gets the gainsayer every time.

But many denominations with conflicting beliefs exist today based upon the same scriptures because men received mixed messages from those scriptures, part as interpreted by the Holy Spirit and part by their own carnal minds. How does one get rid of the carnal mind part?

 

[bbyrd009]

But many denominations with conflicting beliefs exist today based upon the same scriptures because men received mixed messages from those scriptures, part as interpreted by the Holy Spirit and part by their own carnal minds. How does one get rid of the carnal mind part?

ha, right? "I planted, and Apollos watered..." kinda takes on a whole new meaning, dunnit

 

[amadeus]

Ok, but they can't be snipped out, placed in sequence, without respect to the context and overall content of Scripture, now can they?

Shall we look at "No Son of Man may die for another's sins", that's how you say this, is that correct?

I can't quite think of this exact quote in Scripture at the moment, where are you reading this?

Much love!

"Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live.
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live." Ezek 18:19-22

 

[marks]

the passage is about those who say they know, marks, and has nothing whatsoever to do with actually knowing i guess. what is it? then becomes not a question, but an answer

He who asks receives, and he who seeks finds.

What is it? is not the destination.

Much love!

 

[marks]

still waiting for that absolute truth from Scripture though, still waiting for that very first one, see. I do hope that you can find one, being as how you have been asked? Was that you? Yesterday or whatever? If not, you are welcome to take it up if you like, or bam keep deflecting, idc. Your sincere hope is truly appreciated tho, k, ty

I've already seen how you respond to this.

I'm not interested in a philosophical discussion of What is Truth? The Bible is filled with Absolute Truth, at least, that's what I believe to be true. Absolutely.

It seems that your idea of Absolute Truth is "what can be perceived by your senses, or by your reasoning can be convinced of". My idea of Absolute Truth is what is true regardless of whether you or I think it's so.

Do you want absolute truth in the Bible? Pick a place and start reading. But if your idea is to find how you can know nothing from it I don't think you'll get far in finding truth.

Much love!

 

[marks]

"Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live.
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live." Ezek 18:19-22

Hi amadeus,

I suspected that this may be the place he was thinking of, just the same, it doesn't say just quite that thing that bbyrd says.

Much love!

 

[amadeus]

Hi amadeus,

I suspected that this may be the place he was thinking of, just the same, it doesn't say just quite that thing that bbyrd says.

Much love!

You need to address that to @bbyrd009

 

[marks]

You need to address that to @bbyrd009

That's why I had asked him. But thank you for your input!

Much love!

 

[marks]

2 Kings 18:4 ). The object was believed to be the one Moses fashioned to relieve a plague in the Israelite camp during the Exodus (Numbers 21:8-9 ). The word Nehushtan probably is a play on words in the Hebrew, the word for bronze being very similar. Nehushtan probably was a serpentine nature god worshiped in connection with the Canaanite cults. King Jehoiachin's mother was Nehushta ( 2 Kings 24:8 ) probably in honor of this foreign deity. See Bronze Serpent .

The more I think about this the more it makes sense to me. Like saying, "This was the bronze serpent God used to heal your fathers, but you've turned it into nothing more than one of the Canaanite snake gods!"

Is that the idea?

Much love!