Total adherence to Calvinism makes God the author of evil

[Helen]

Romans 1:19ff is not the Gospel message. It's not a chance to vote self into heaven. Not surprising so many take it out of context. But @GodsGrace takes nearly every scripture out of context, her entire gospel is bathed in false interpretations.

What is it saying? It's saying all the world is lost an is without excuse, not that all have had a chance to vote, and they are aware there is God. It's not saying that all have heard the Gospel. But, ignorance prevails and people eisegete their false gospel into Scripture.

I wrote a PM ( two actually) to SovereignGrace but got no answer.

I am trying to understand why these things matter so much.
I told SG that for sure God spoke to me FIRST, and He had been niggling/nudging at me for some time before that. I responded to the call of God. My husband wasn't a christian or interested at that time...so I was always saying to God..."Why me, why can't Dave hear You , why doesn't he want You?"

Does that make me a Calvinist?
Okay...Why is what a man ( Calvin) taught become your camping ground and not just the bible?

It seems from us who 'look on' that you five guys are here to preach Calvin, and not so much "preach Christ and Him crucified."

If all the arguing would stop...maybe we could all understand better what each other is saying.

For me, wadr , I am still trying to work out why some man's message is so important.
What did people believe before Calvin came along?

.......Helen

 

[marksman]

If you clearly state that you would NOT have chosen God....
what makes you think you're saved?
Why do you think God chose you and not the other way around?
Could you exegete John 3:16?
Thanks.

What makes me think I am saved. Have you got a couple of hours to spare? To put it simply, I don't think, I KNOW!! I am more passionate about God now than when I was saved 66 years ago.

And having gone to heaven and met God nothing could convince me about the reality of God otherwise.

If I knew the answer to your second question I would be God so no can do.

John 3:16 was the verse that convinced me that he was the guy who was talking to me about his salvation that he wanted to give to me so here goes.....

God so loved the world....that means you, me and every aspect of it.

He gave his only son...the one person that could do something about the terrible state that it had ended up in because of the rebelliousness of mankind. ( He was so loving he wouldn't even stop us rebelling).

So that whoever believes in him...The person who does not deny that God has the right to be God and who he says he is.

Shall not perish....which means that those who do not believe in him will perish

But have everlasting life.....because that is what he intended in the first place. In other words, he was only fulfilling that which was his original intention.

I happen to believe that mankind was not meant to die and that creation was not meant to decay.

That is the shortened version. The longer version would take a few pages.

 

[SovereignGrace]

While omniscience is broader than foreknowledge, Calvinists REJECT the truth that divine foreknowledge precedes predestination, and promote the idea that God predestines some for salvation and others for damnation.

But the Bible says that according to God's foreknowledge, He predestined those who would be justified (saved) to be "conformed to the image of His Son" (perfected and glorified just as Christ is perfect and glorious). Please note what is in Scripture (Rom 8:29,30).

For whom he did foreknow...
...he also did predestinate...
...to be conformed to the image of his Son...
...that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Moreover whom he did predestinate...
...them he also called
...and whom he called, them he also justified...
...and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

No Calvinists I know of reject the truth that divine foreknowledge precedes predestination. As you aptly quoted Romans 8:29.

 

[marksman]

If you read the context of 2 Timothy en toto, not just 2 Timothy 3:9, you can see the context is referring to believers, not all mankind. Not being snarky, so please don’t take it that way.

”What do you think? If any man has a hundred sheep, and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go and search for the one that is straying? If it turns out that he finds it, truly I say to you, he rejoices over it more than over the ninety-nine which have not gone astray. So it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones perish.[Matthew 18:12-14]

He’s not willing any of His sheep(believers) perish.

I particularly like the comment by Dr. Martin Lloyd Jenkins which you have brought to our attention.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I particularly like the comment by Dr. Martin Lloyd Jenkins which you have brought to our attention.

You meant Jones?

 

[marksman]

Does God's foreknowledge CAUSE future things to happen?
Is God's foreknowledge a causation?

I do not believe that God's foreknowledge means that he stops or changes things. He is more interested in the big picture and the overall outcome. It is difficult for us to comprehend that he has and can see everything from A to Z

That I believe is the driving force behind what he does or doesn't do.

A personal anecdote. When I was living in the UK, I was driving down one of their numerous country roads with all its twists and turns. I was doing a 100ks and not wearing a seat belt (I know I was stupid).

These roads often had high hedges in farming country and this was the case in question. I came round a bend and on the other side of the road, an old truck was struggling to get up the hill.

That was fine except an impatient driver had overtaken him on a blind bend which I was coming round. When I got round the bend there was this car right in front of me, a truck on my right and a high hedge on my left.

With nowhere to go, I put both hands on the steering wheel, braced my self for what was going to be inevitable and said "Jesus, here I come" expecting at that moment to die.

The moment I said that I felt a pair of hands grip my shoulders as I slammed into the other car. The passenger in the other car who did not have a seat belt on either came through her windscreen and landed against mine cut to pieces.

I sat there in total shock with a bruised knee and cut nose. I could not get out of the driver's door because it was so mangled so I had to climb over the driver's seat and get out the back door.

I knew then that it was not my time to die and an angel of the Lord was sent to save me.

Foreknowledge? Predestined? Our God reigns? God continuing to save me? All I know is that I should have died but I didn't.

 

[marksman]

You meant Jones?

Correct.

 

[marksman]

Does God's foreknowledge CAUSE future things to happen?
Is God's foreknowledge a causation?

It can be as my car testimony shows.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

While omniscience is broader than foreknowledge, Calvinists REJECT the truth that divine foreknowledge precedes predestination...

Nope, that's false.

 

[Laish]

But some accepted God even BEFORE there was the gospel.
God's wrath did not fall on these.

Ok I got what you said in your post . Post (111)
Was wondering about what’s in bold . This dose leave things wide open . Folks can take it many ways .
I don’t believe you intend that so can you please expound on this ?
Blessings
Bill

 

[Laish]

because of his foreknowledge, he knows where we all stand regarding the salvation he offers.

Ok a few questions.
Is the the salvation He offers extended to all ? If so how ?
Blessings
Bill

 

[Laish]

Bill, you promised that you would answer my questions after I answered your 1 question, and that was many questions ago.
I'm feeling like you're giving me the run around.

I am not you have said what you believe God has done you said He has offered them a choice .
That is not what I asked I said how . How has God offered the choice. How has everyone been made aware of this choice when so many have never heard .
Blessings
Bill

 

[Enoch111]

No Calvinists I know of reject the truth that divine foreknowledge precedes predestination. As you aptly quoted Romans 8:29.

Well according to the Westminster Confession of Faith, God's "Eternal Decree" went into effect before anything else, which means that He predestined or predetermined everything from the very beginning (excluding foreknowledge). So according to this belief predestination would precede foreknowledge. My subheadings are inserted in read.

Chapter 3
Of God’s Eternal Decree

PREDESTINATION BEFORE EVERYTHING ELSE
1. God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass: yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.

FOREKNOWLEDGE EXCLUDED FROM PREDETERMINATION
2. Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass upon all supposed conditions,d yet hath he not decreed anything because he foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.

DOUBLE PREDESTINATION AN ESSENTIAL REFORMED DOCTRINE
3. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life; and others foreordained to everlasting death.

Many claim that only Hyper Calvinists believe in double predestination. But the authoritative (and essential) Statement of Faith for the Reformed says otherwise. All Calvinists/Presbyterians/Reformed must accept this as their doctrine. Perhaps many do not even familiarize themselves with this Statement of Faith (which is practically replicated in the London Baptist Confession of Faith-- 1689).

 

[GodsGrace]

I wrote a PM ( two actually) to SovereignGrace but got no answer.

I am trying to understand why these things matter so much.
I told SG that for sure God spoke to me FIRST, and He had been niggling/nudging at me for some time before that. I responded to the call of God. My husband wasn't a christian or interested at that time...so I was always saying to God..."Why me, why can't Dave hear You , why doesn't he want You?"

Does that make me a Calvinist?
Okay...Why is what a man ( Calvin) taught become your camping ground and not just the bible?

It seems from us who 'look on' that you five guys are here to preach Calvin, and not so much "preach Christ and Him crucified."

If all the arguing would stop...maybe we could all understand better what each other is saying.

For me, wadr , I am still trying to work out why some man's message is so important.
What did people believe before Calvin came along?

.......Helen

Hi Helen,
Has SG answered you? Just got here.
Why do these things matter so much?
Here's why:
Soteriology is the study of how we're saved.
HOW we're saved is important so we could evangelize those who are not saved.

Mainline Christians (us) believe exactly what you stated as your experience.
God reveals Himself to us.
We answer Him with a yes or a no.

In the teaching of John Calvin, and others, it's like this:
God picks who will be saved and who will be damned from the foundation of the world. The persons He does not pick have nothing to do regarding their salvation except to end up in hell -- through no fault of their own.

So when we evangelize...what would YOU say?
Choose this day whom you will serve...
or
You can't do anything about your salvation...God will decide because He's sovereign.

What causes the difference in soteriology is this:
Calvin saw the words predestine and elect in the bible and thought that God must have predestined EVERYTHING...every little thing you do.

He figured that since God predestined everything...then surely, man must not have free will because that would cause a conflict between God and man.

He taught that since God only saves some lucky few persons,,,then Jesus died for ONLY those persons...not for whoever will believe or not for the whole world.

Since God chose who would be saved...then surely the will persevere till the end.
This has come to be known as eternal salvation or OSAS.

Basically, that's it but there's a lot more. Keep reading along.

I'm not arguing, I'm just discussing. Some on that side are rather insulting...but I'm used to it by now. They don't have real answers, so they attack personally.

As to what people believed before John Calvin...
GREAT POINT! Which I make many times.

They believed what you believe.
God reveals Himself.
The person chooses salvation (or not).
Jesus died for everyone that wants to believe in Him.
God did NOT predestine everything...although some things He certainly did.
If we keep believing, we will be saved. Jesus is the life in us.

Hope that helps.

 

[GodsGrace]

What makes me think I am saved. Have you got a couple of hours to spare? To put it simply, I don't think, I KNOW!! I am more passionate about God now than when I was saved 66 years ago.

And having gone to heaven and met God nothing could convince me about the reality of God otherwise.

If I knew the answer to your second question I would be God so no can do.

John 3:16 was the verse that convinced me that he was the guy who was talking to me about his salvation that he wanted to give to me so here goes.....

God so loved the world....that means you, me and every aspect of it.

He gave his only son...the one person that could do something about the terrible state that it had ended up in because of the rebelliousness of mankind. ( He was so loving he wouldn't even stop us rebelling).

So that whoever believes in him...The person who does not deny that God has the right to be God and who he says he is.

Shall not perish....which means that those who do not believe in him will perish

But have everlasting life.....because that is what he intended in the first place. In other words, he was only fulfilling that which was his original intention.

I happen to believe that mankind was not meant to die and that creation was not meant to decay.

That is the shortened version. The longer version would take a few pages.

Wow. Someone on this thread could exegete a verse.

First of all let me say that the reason I asked is because I know for sure that someone that believes God CHOSE THEM (a calvinist) will never be sure he is really saved because it's up to God and not them. God could decide at any moment that He no longer wants to save that person and so the person will end up in hell.

OTOH, If it's ME that CHOOSES God, I can be sure I'm saved for as long as I DO NOT abandon God and and I KNOW if I do....simple concept.

I do believe that you agree with me.
God revealed Himself to you.
You felt that Jesus was calling you. (God calls everyone).
And you answered with a firm YES.

And, yes, you are 100% right.
Man was not meant to die - physically or spiritually.
Neither was creation.

Man was given preternatural gifts that were lost at the fall.
And all creation is waiting to be released.
Romans 8:19-22
19For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God.
20For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope
21that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.
22For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.

 

[GodsGrace]

No Calvinists I know of reject the truth that divine foreknowledge precedes predestination. As you aptly quoted Romans 8:29.

You truly do not seem to understand scripture.
Read Romans 8:29 till you understand what @Enoch111
is saying because he's 100% right.
And all of Christianity, except Calvinists, agree with HIM.

 

[GodsGrace]

I do not believe that God's foreknowledge means that he stops or changes things. He is more interested in the big picture and the overall outcome. It is difficult for us to comprehend that he has and can see everything from A to Z

That I believe is the driving force behind what he does or doesn't do.

A personal anecdote. When I was living in the UK, I was driving down one of their numerous country roads with all its twists and turns. I was doing a 100ks and not wearing a seat belt (I know I was stupid).

These roads often had high hedges in farming country and this was the case in question. I came round a bend and on the other side of the road, an old truck was struggling to get up the hill.

That was fine except an impatient driver had overtaken him on a blind bend which I was coming round. When I got round the bend there was this car right in front of me, a truck on my right and a high hedge on my left.

With nowhere to go, I put both hands on the steering wheel, braced my self for what was going to be inevitable and said "Jesus, here I come" expecting at that moment to die.

The moment I said that I felt a pair of hands grip my shoulders as I slammed into the other car. The passenger in the other car who did not have a seat belt on either came through her windscreen and landed against mine cut to pieces.

I sat there in total shock with a bruised knee and cut nose. I could not get out of the driver's door because it was so mangled so I had to climb over the driver's seat and get out the back door.

I knew then that it was not my time to die and an angel of the Lord was sent to save me.

Foreknowledge? Predestined? Our God reigns? God continuing to save me? All I know is that I should have died but I didn't.

OK, so you're questioning. This is fine.
We are finite and God is infinite and we will not understand everything.
Because we cannot understand everything is no reason to apply to God everything that happens and attribute to Him even sin and sickness and accidents, etc.

I believe God FOREKNOWS everything that is going to happen.
This is not causation.
He can, at anytime He wishes, enter into our time and stop someone from being killed. I know other stories such as yours. It makes my eyes tear.

Also, I do believe that we have free will and God is able to work around our free will and STILL cause HIS end game to come to fruition. This is not a problem for me.

If God is so sovereign, as calvinists state, surely He could do this simple task!
If He could create the entire universe and all the physical laws it holds...why could He not give us free will and ALSO cause HIS end game? There is no reason!

To believe in predestination is to blame God for sinful man, children and adults dying of cancer and other diseases, to blame Him for attacks from nature: hurricanes, earthquakes, etc. and to blame Him for war.

Does this sound like the God of the bible?
Who was incarnated and died because He loves us so much....
Certainly not. It is a god unknown before 1,500 AD and unknown to mainline Christianity.

 

[GodsGrace]

It can be as my car testimony shows.

Your reply is different from what you've been saying.

Your reply means that God predestined your accident....

and then saved you from it.

This makes no sense.
Please consider your answer again....

 

[GodsGrace]

Nope, that's false.

Well,
that settles it then!

 

[GodsGrace]

Ok I got what you said in your post . Post (111)
Was wondering about what’s in bold . This dose leave things wide open . Folks can take it many ways .
I don’t believe you intend that so can you please expound on this ?
Blessings
Bill

Didn't we already have this discussion?

Anyway...

It's easy L,,,,,
God revealed Himself to the Hebrews about 4,000 years ago.
Was man not on earth before that?
Did those men know of the existence of God as explained in
Romans 1:19?

Did the bible always exist?
Or did it get put together in the 400's?

God has always existed.
Man has existed for longer than 3,500 to 4,000 years.

What happened to persons that died BEFORE Abraham?
Before the bible?

Romans 1:19-20 explains this.