Total adherence to Calvinism makes God the author of evil
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Preacher4Truth
Well-Known Member
It's a subconscious coping mechanism.
They use this lie in order to soothe their consciences and "get God off the hook." They cannot accept the truths that the whole world is guilty before God, and that he can exercise justice on whomsoever he wills without them "hearing the Gospel."
To them, it's God's fault if a person goes to hell if he doesn't let them get a chance to hear the gospel and exercise their free will and vote. It's all about voting, the Gospel has been reduced to a voting booth. Their lie "Everybody's heard the Gospel!" helps them cope with the God they call a monster.
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See Romans 1:19-20
19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
Man has always been aware of God's existence through His creation.
There have always been some that will accept God and believe,
and those that will not...even before the bible was ever written.
How about posting some scripture?
Where does the bible state that everyone HAS HEARD the gospel?
BTW,,,
WHO is THEM?
There is only ONE Body of Christ.
Romans 12:5
Do you not belong to it?
Yes that is true for the conviction of sin showing we have no excuse . That is shown to us in general revelation . What about the Gospel? You know the life death and resurrection of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ. Aye you saying that what is seen in nature is enough to save?
Blessings
Bill
Preacher4Truth
Well-Known Member
Romans 1:19ff is not the Gospel message. It's not a chance to vote self into heaven. Not surprising so many take it out of context. But @GodsGrace takes nearly every scripture out of context, her entire gospel is bathed in false interpretations.
What is it saying? It's saying all the world is lost an is without excuse, not that all have had a chance to vote, and they are aware there is God. It's not saying that all have heard the Gospel. But, ignorance prevails and people eisegete their false gospel into Scripture.
What is it saying? It's saying all the world is lost an is without excuse, not that all have had a chance to vote, and they are aware there is God. It's not saying that all have heard the Gospel. But, ignorance prevails and people eisegete their false gospel into Scripture.
@Jane_Doe22 ..back again for a bit..
Before I answer your question concerning the revelation of truth(s) by the Spirit, there is an impossible and really troubling mind-set amongst hyper free-willers (HFW) - my new operating expression and acronym. They think they know how the Creator operates outside of time when they themselves are stuck in it. They attempt to marginalize the mind of the Creator and replace it with their own, every time this discussion of the elect is raised. Big mistake!
Further, the HFWs attempt to understand that if some are chosen and most of not chosen for the Kingdom, then the Father must be cruel, and we know this is not Biblical at all. Cannot have it both ways I’m afraid – ALL loving and ALL in the Kingdom.
And then these HFWs say pre-selection by the Creator of specific individuals for salvation, to them is a cruel and robotic operation; as they cry wolf and say its a denial of rights of the HFWs to be human and use their own minds to decide to accept the truth. Not true at all. The Creator already knew the hearts of men. Yes, he gives INITIAL TRUTHS to ALL men although he knows that NOT ALL men shall receive it. Yes, he gives ALL a chance to accept his INITIAL TRUTH, that leads to the entrance of the Kingdom.
BL: The Creator knows the hearts of men and gives ALL their own mind to decide, as current slaves to sin. If they decide it’s not for me, then it is a decision made at a specific human perceived time. And this decline of that person, also means that the Spirit never once moved to first prepare their heart for reception - beforehand. The Creator never moves hearts to himself first, if he already knows they shall decline his invitation afterwards.
The Creator knew ALL HIS people before time per scripture. He knew their hearts and moved to them to receive his INITIAL TRUTH. So, in this sense they were chosen, foreknown and preselected/predestined for the Kingdom already.
I personally think the problem with many HFWs is that they are insecure in their own salvation, or even, that they may not be actually be converted. They want to know for sure they are saved, and it keeps bothering them and so they use labels to alleviate some of their anxiety. They constantly use labels such as Calvinism, or you are a Calvinist or an OSOS believer. These are not the problem, it is the person with doubt, and those attempting to cast doubt on those that are already secure in their salvation. Just my opinion.
Bless you,
APAK
Before I answer your question concerning the revelation of truth(s) by the Spirit, there is an impossible and really troubling mind-set amongst hyper free-willers (HFW) - my new operating expression and acronym. They think they know how the Creator operates outside of time when they themselves are stuck in it. They attempt to marginalize the mind of the Creator and replace it with their own, every time this discussion of the elect is raised. Big mistake!
Further, the HFWs attempt to understand that if some are chosen and most of not chosen for the Kingdom, then the Father must be cruel, and we know this is not Biblical at all. Cannot have it both ways I’m afraid – ALL loving and ALL in the Kingdom.
And then these HFWs say pre-selection by the Creator of specific individuals for salvation, to them is a cruel and robotic operation; as they cry wolf and say its a denial of rights of the HFWs to be human and use their own minds to decide to accept the truth. Not true at all. The Creator already knew the hearts of men. Yes, he gives INITIAL TRUTHS to ALL men although he knows that NOT ALL men shall receive it. Yes, he gives ALL a chance to accept his INITIAL TRUTH, that leads to the entrance of the Kingdom.
BL: The Creator knows the hearts of men and gives ALL their own mind to decide, as current slaves to sin. If they decide it’s not for me, then it is a decision made at a specific human perceived time. And this decline of that person, also means that the Spirit never once moved to first prepare their heart for reception - beforehand. The Creator never moves hearts to himself first, if he already knows they shall decline his invitation afterwards.
The Creator knew ALL HIS people before time per scripture. He knew their hearts and moved to them to receive his INITIAL TRUTH. So, in this sense they were chosen, foreknown and preselected/predestined for the Kingdom already.
I personally think the problem with many HFWs is that they are insecure in their own salvation, or even, that they may not be actually be converted. They want to know for sure they are saved, and it keeps bothering them and so they use labels to alleviate some of their anxiety. They constantly use labels such as Calvinism, or you are a Calvinist or an OSOS believer. These are not the problem, it is the person with doubt, and those attempting to cast doubt on those that are already secure in their salvation. Just my opinion.
Bless you,
APAK
SovereignGrace
Certified Flunky
Sooooooooo, you sleep all day while your wife works? I bet she mows the yard, cooks, washes dishes, does the laundry, cleans the casa, while you set and watch Joel Osteen, Creflo Dollar, T.D. Jakes, Jesse Duplantis, and Benny Hinn all day.
SovereignGrace
Certified Flunky
No Bill, that's not what I'm saying.
We've been through this before (maybe not with you?)
What Romans 1:19-20 teaches is that God's wrath has been on men BECAUSE THEY HAVE NO EXCUSE.
Why do they have no excuse?
Because God has revealed Himself from the beginning of time...
BEFORE there was even a gospel or bible or revelation to the Hebrews or anything...except how He revealed Himself in creation.
NOW that we have the bible and the gospel is preached, we can say that it is necessary to believe in the gospel in order to have salvation.
Romans 1:19-20 is not ONLY about the wrath of God...
it states that MAN IS WITHOUT EXCUSE if he denies God.
Romans 1:18-21 let's add two verses...
18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
21For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
We must come to scripture without preconceived ideas.
1. The wrath of God is revealed against all ungodliness.
2. God made His truth known to them instinctively. (Romans 2:14-15)
3. Since the BEGINNING OF TIME men have known about God's existence by His creation: The earth, the sky, and all God made.
4. SO THEY WILL HAVE NO EXCUSE WHEN THEY STAND BEFORE GOD.
5. They knew about God but would not worship Him.
God's wrath is revealed against all ungodliness...
But some accepted God even BEFORE there was the gospel.
God's wrath did not fall on these.
Romans 11:22 shows God's wrath and His kindness according to the belief and action of each person.
marksman
My eldest granddaughter showing the result of her
One has to realise what the scripture says is true that he not willing that any should perish. His will is that all will come to repentance. That is the whole point of the cross.
But that does not obviate his foreknowledge and demand that he throws salvation around like confetti and hope that some of it will land and transform people whether they want to be transformed or not.
Because God is God he has total control or he is not God. One cannot say God is in total control but not when it comes to salvation. To say that is an oxymoron.
See post 111 and answer to it instead of making remarks that mean nothing to no one.
marksman
My eldest granddaughter showing the result of her
That is good. Inquiry sharpens the mind and strengthens the heart. I am so glad that God chose me because if he hadn't, I don't think for one moment I would have chosen him. In fact, I know I wouldn't.
Does God's foreknowledge CAUSE future things to happen?
Is God's foreknowledge a causation?
SovereignGrace
Certified Flunky
If you read the context of 2 Timothy en toto, not just 2 Timothy 3:9, you can see the context is referring to believers, not all mankind. Not being snarky, so please don’t take it that way.
”What do you think? If any man has a hundred sheep, and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go and search for the one that is straying? If it turns out that he finds it, truly I say to you, he rejoices over it more than over the ninety-nine which have not gone astray. So it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones perish.[Matthew 18:12-14]
He’s not willing any of His sheep(believers) perish.
If you clearly state that you would NOT have chosen God....
what makes you think you're saved?
Why do you think God chose you and not the other way around?
Could you exegete John 3:16?
Thanks.
Then why does He allow one to get away from the other 99?
Do you realize how much danger a sheep is in when he leaves the flock?
Are you saying God made the one sheep become lost just so the shepherd could risk his own life to go after the lost sheep?
A strange god this is....
Did you just state that 2 Timothy 3:9 is speaking about believers?
Because of CONTEXT?
Let's read it together:
2 Timothy 3:1-10
1But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come.
2For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy,
3unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good,
4treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God,
5holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; Avoid such men as these.
6For among them are those who enter into households and captivate weak women weighed down with sins, led on by various impulses,
7always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
8Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose the truth, men of depraved mind, rejected in regard to the faith.
9But they will not make further progress; for their folly will be obvious to all, just as Jannes’s and Jambres’s folly was also.
10Now you followed my teaching, conduct, purpose, faith, patience, love, perseverance,
The above is speaking to carnal men...
it is NOT speaking about believers...or they would be strange believers indeed.
Paul goes so far as to say that we are TO AVOID men such as these.
Are we supposed to avoid our fellow believers and brothers in Christ?
No.
In verse 10, Paul says: Now YOU follow my teachings....
NOW he is speaking to the believers and instructing them.
marksman
My eldest granddaughter showing the result of her
These verses are very important in understanding God. So often we think that God is there for us, but in reality, we are there for him. We have to remember that in the beginning, he created the heavens and earth for his pleasure. When it happened you and little ole me were not even on the horizon.
When he created the heavens and the earth and that in itself is a statement of immense proportion that we can never comprehend, he said it was good. or to paraphrase, you are a clever boy.
Now after creating such a vast conglomerate of such magnificence he probably said to Jesus "What do you think we should do next?" They probably conferred and said "What a good idea. let us create something in our own image and call them humans." So along came Adam and then because he was on his own, Eve.
God's creative ability did not stop there. He didn't say to them "Off you go and do your own thing and I will give you a helping hand occasionally."
No, they were his creation so he was going to be involved in their lives from the cradle to the grave. The same as he is still involved in the creation of matter. That is why all the hoo-ha about climate change is rubbish. God will do what he wants to do and nothing we can do will change it unless it is what he wants for his creation.
So has he abandoned us to sort everything out? Not on your life. He has been there since day one for all of us. Sooooooooo, because of his foreknowledge, he knows where we all stand regarding the salvation he offers.
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