The fruit of good & evil

[Nancy]

what if the gift were to a 3 year old

Of course not, lol!

 

[Nancy]

penance is straight from hell, ok, it is the exact opposite of forgiveness i guess

I meant in the sense that Jesus "paid" our penalty. No 10 Hail Mary's, Our Fathers, Act of Contrition...on rosary beads.

 

[bbyrd009]

Of course it is inferred, it is why I said the whole bible teaches Christian morality.

So then you think you are your brother's keeper?

 

[bbyrd009]

I meant in the sense that Jesus "paid" our penalty. No 10 Hail Mary's, Our Fathers, Act of Contrition...on rosary beads.

No Son of Man may die for another's sins either, Nancy,
and Christ died "for" my sins, too :)
the diff is in how you hear "for" ok, which can also mean "because of"
imo

 

[bbyrd009]

I meant in the sense that Jesus "paid" our penalty.

then why pick up your cross?

then how are all sins forgiven, even those of the whole world?

 

[Nancy]

then why pick up your cross?

then how are all sins forgiven, even those of the whole world?

"then why pick up your cross?"
Because we are to count the cost of being a follower of His.

"then how are all sins forgiven, even those of the whole world?"
I would not say that all sins are forgiven as one needs to repent for forgiveness. Jesus paid for ALL sin, it's a gift, has to be received. Not all will accept this free gift because of the cost of following Him :)

 

[bbyrd009]

Because we are to count the cost of being a follower of His.

Wadr this seems a bit evasive, ethereal, ambiguous? Could you give a more practical reply? And then could you maybe describe what following has cost you up to this point?

I would not say that all sins are forgiven as one needs to repent for forgiveness

i get why you say this, but...um, you have already realized on some level that you need to forgive your friend regardless of whether she repents or not, yes? Imagine how whacked she would be if you demonstrated forgiveness, "here are my keys, i really appreciate this, see you Monday," or whatever. You wanna see a miracle healing, don't you?

"We heard You coming and we knew that we were naked, so we hid"
"Ah. Who told you that you were naked?
Here, have a skin then"

I tell you that what you say makes perfect sense, to us in the world, but...ok, you have kids, right? Could you describe what changed in you when they admitted (confessed) to some sin that you already knew about, and had already forgiven them for? Dunno if this will work or not, we might have to go hypothetical? I don't recall ever confessing to anything, i was Trump on steroids lol

Jesus paid for ALL sin, it's a gift, has to be received. Not all will accept this free gift because of the cost of following Him :)

for this we say "turn your eyes upon Jesus" or something along those lines, right, even though we cannot Quote "all eyes will see Him" anywhere, even though it seems like we can at first, huh. So i would ask you to contemplate the story of the Wanderers who had to look with their eyes to the Snake on a Pole for their healing, and tell me what contrast you find, if any, to your story of acceptance.

And also maybe why the Priest broke up Nehushtan, generations later, iow why didn't Moses break up Nehushtan, which btw means something like "piece of brass (which is a...mixed metal, not an element iow)" or "little brazen serpent" or "bronze god" and copper, one of the elements that make brass, is red, too, but later for that one maybe

you might also note how sure your answers are sounding up there, which in the past i would just post the Scriptures they refute but that isn't working i guess, prolly just makes the vv even harder to reconcile for ppl, i dunno. Pretty sure that was better than "bs, don't be an idiot" etc anyway. Man, i am still a mess, the last one should even be here doing this imo, i don't get it. Don't let me give you the impression that my heart is anywhere as good as yours ok, i'm strickly a theory guy i guess. Biggest favor i did my kids was not having them lol

 

[bbyrd009]

I would not say that all sins are forgiven as one needs to repent for forgiveness

Doesn't forgiveness generally accompany confession?

 

[Nancy]

Doesn't forgiveness generally accompany confession?

Let me re-word that:
I would not say that all sins are forgiven, as one needs to repent for forgiveness. If one does not confess then there is no forgiveness. All sin is PAYED for but...if somebody refuses their only way to redemption then, they are under the law...which means they will not meet Gods standard.

 

[Nancy]

Wadr this seems a bit evasive, ethereal, ambiguous? Could you give a more practical reply? And then could you maybe describe what following has cost you up to this point?
i get why you say this, but...um, you have already realized on some level that you need to forgive your friend regardless of whether she repents or not, yes? Imagine how whacked she would be if you demonstrated forgiveness, "here are my keys, i really appreciate this, see you Monday," or whatever. You wanna see a miracle healing, don't you?

"We heard You coming and we knew that we were naked, so we hid"
"Ah. Who told you that you were naked?
Here, have a skin then"

I tell you that what you say makes perfect sense, to us in the world, but...ok, you have kids, right? Could you describe what changed in you when they admitted (confessed) to some sin that you already knew about, and had already forgiven them for? Dunno if this will work or not, we might have to go hypothetical? I don't recall ever confessing to anything, i was Trump on steroids lol
for this we say "turn your eyes upon Jesus" or something along those lines, right, even though we cannot Quote "all eyes will see Him" anywhere, even though it seems like we can at first, huh. So i would ask you to contemplate the story of the Wanderers who had to look with their eyes to the Snake on a Pole for their healing, and tell me what contrast you find, if any, to your story of acceptance.

And also maybe why the Priest broke up Nehushtan, generations later, iow why didn't Moses break up Nehushtan, which btw means something like "piece of brass (which is a...mixed metal, not an element iow)" or "little brazen serpent" or "bronze god" and copper, one of the elements that make brass, is red, too, but later for that one maybe

you might also note how sure your answers are sounding up there, which in the past i would just post the Scriptures they refute but that isn't working i guess, prolly just makes the vv even harder to reconcile for ppl, i dunno. Pretty sure that was better than "bs, don't be an idiot" etc anyway. Man, i am still a mess, the last one should even be here doing this imo, i don't get it. Don't let me give you the impression that my heart is anywhere as good as yours ok, i'm strickly a theory guy i guess. Biggest favor i did my kids was not having them lol

This is a bit loaded for me right now, Ha! Scrambled brains today! But:
"...you need to forgive your friend regardless of whether she repents or not, yes?"
Yes Mark, of course I forgave her from day one. I do not want to carry that around as, it would "keep" me in a state of anger which would then give birth to sin.
As for the rest of your post Mark, I'm too tired to even try to decipher right now. And, I do believe my postings were pretty clear ;)

 

[bbyrd009]

I would not say that all sins are forgiven, as one needs to repent for forgiveness. If one does not confess then there is no forgiveness

Sure seems logical, ok, and i think you even have some Scripture to seemingly back that up! Now i'm not sure if maybe we have different definitions of Forgiveness or what, i guess for sure we do, but I'd suggest we maybe examine that interaction you have had with one of your kids not confessing that you didn't choose to thread here, or maybe that is your reply to...that (been meaning to change my preferences there to the other thread view so it's easier to tell on the fly).

Anyway, imo forgive someone who does not deserve it, today if you can, and not with your mouth.
Everyone's sins are forgiven by our Father, already, right now. It is ppl in courtrooms under the law who need confessions in order to forgive. Yes, it is not logical, it is even suicidal i guess huh. Imo do yourself a favor and do not say the word Love again until you can do this, even.

 

[bbyrd009]

Yes Mark, of course I forgave her from day one

and then you got POed all over again?
ok

 

[Nancy]

and then you got POed all over again?
ok

I did get po'd all over again, yes. And, again have not let a day go by that I have not prayed for and about her welfare and for forgiveness to become complete in my heart. It becomes easier to pray for her welfare each day, several times even.
If a brother or sister in Christ were to do these things to you, how would you react? Would you just automatically be like, "oh, it's okay. And, BAM-their forgiven and your hurt has vanished just like that! Especially if they have not even owned up to these things? There is much more than meets your eye here Mark...she lived here for over a year and a half...Even though she does not do the computer, I do not want to put allot out there as, it would not be very kind so, God says to me, "Just love and pray for her". I get that allot, lol.

 

[Nancy]

Sure seems logical, ok, and i think you even have some Scripture to seemingly back that up! Now i'm not sure if maybe we have different definitions of Forgiveness or what, i guess for sure we do, but I'd suggest we maybe examine that interaction you have had with one of your kids not confessing that you didn't choose to thread here, or maybe that is your reply to...that (been meaning to change my preferences there to the other thread view so it's easier to tell on the fly).

Anyway, imo forgive someone who does not deserve it, today if you can, and not with your mouth.
Everyone's sins are forgiven by our Father, already, right now. It is ppl in courtrooms under the law who need confessions in order to forgive. Yes, it is not logical, it is even suicidal i guess huh. Imo do yourself a favor and do not say the word Love again until you can do this, even.

"Everyone's sins are forgiven by our Father, already, right now. It is ppl in courtrooms under the law who need confessions in order to forgive."

So, if you sin, do you not need to confess and ask forgiveness? The forgiveness I have given her IS from my heart, it is NOT lip service. Yes, it took several weeks to come to peace with it and become able to honestly pray for her welfare. She is stuck with an apartment that she cannot afford. He 30 yr. old son had no intentions of moving in with her to pay half. She is on SSI and she only takes in 800 per month.
I really don't want to get into all of this Mark as, it goes much further and...that is NOT me trying to like, defend my self at all! God knows and I only care what He thinks of me any how ♥ He hears and answers EVERY prayer...and my prayer for this personal situation is ONLY for His will therefore, I already know it is answered. ;)

 

[oldhermit]

Ok, could you give me an example then?

Genesis 3 is the example you are looking for.
How do these two trees help us to understand the triadic nature of reality and the source of a moral standard?

As we move from creation to the garden, there develops an emerging discontinuity between man and his association with forbidden things. When man is unconstrained by revelation, he quite naturally draws conclusions based upon how he relates to the world around him. Man allows what he experiences to influence how he defines what is relevant. Once man learns to link the natural to the eternal, he learns to represent human events in quite a different way. One cannot build a triadic picture of reality based upon experiential logic. Human rationalization, operating on its own, cannot properly context the relationship of man to the natural world. Building a triadic picture of reality is only possible when one learns to represent human experience in the light of revelation. To do this, one must allow revelation to transcend experiential logic.

There is an example of triadic structure that demonstrates how the natural world and the supernatural world relate to one another in the eternal continuum. At the beginning of man’s history in the garden, the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil were mentioned in the context of man’s relationship both to God and to the natural world. The text never seems to indicate that in the beginning there was any prohibition to the tree of life but, that man was only denied access to the tree of knowledge. It was not until after the fall of man that God placed an angel with a flaming sword at the east of the garden to prohibit man’s access to the tree of life.

The way in which Adam chose to represent these trees would reflect his understanding of his association with both God and the natural world. As the narrative unfolds, it becomes clear that access to the tree of life was predicated upon man’s observance of the divine prohibition of the other. Man was to have absolutely no contact with the tree of knowledge. God had provided every tree of the garden for man’s use and pleasure, but this tree was to be left strictly alone. These two trees stand as symbols of a world beyond man’s sensory existence. The tree of forbidden knowledge represents the holiness, the superiority, and the sovereignty of God. It suggests that God always reserves unto Himself the things that belong exclusively to him. It is not merely the tree that has exclusivity, but what that tree represents. As a whole, man is never content to abide by prohibitions. Here, he desires the one thing he is denied. How characteristic this has proven to be of human nature!

Although man was given the highest place of honor as the crowning creation of God, and given dominion over all creation, this tree was a reminder that even man is not God. Man must stand in the index position of this triad and link the tree of knowledge that he can see to the will of God whom he cannot see. He must also link this tree to revealed consequences that he cannot see and has never before experienced. For man to properly relate to both worlds, he must learn to link the eternal world to his world by bringing God’s warning to bear upon his relationship to this tree. He must learn how to define the nature of his relationship to this tree based on what God had told him about it. Now, this epistemology did not just apply to this tree, it extended to everything in man’s dominion. He must understand his relationship to all of his domain based upon this triadic epistemology. God had already defined man’s function in creation and man must relate to his world according to the words of the Lord.

From the beginning, man was confronted with a decision in his association with this icon of good and evil. This tree was a symbol of an unseen reality. There is a particular type of knowledge that man was not equipped to handle and should not seek to obtain. The accessibility of the tree shows that man was given the ability to obtain this knowledge. The prohibition laid down by God says that this knowledge is destructive to man. This reinforces man’s position as a subordinate creature to what is unseen. God had said, “From this tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shalt not eat of it; for in the day that you eat from it, you shall surely die.” Here is a divine standard given to instruct man on how to think when he considers this tree. Since God has decreed that punishment will follow disobedience, the validity of God’s word is upheld. Divine judgment preserves divine justice because it is through the exercise of justice that God protects his holiness. Observance of this revelation becomes a matter of life and death. The ethics were simple; God said, “Don’t touch it.” This did not require a human analysis of ethics to decide what might be the right thing to do. Contact with the tree was evil both because God said it was evil, and because of what man would suffer as a result.

We know, because of how this tree is interpreted by the physical senses in the text, that man, left on his own, could not arrive at this conclusion. Adam could not see what the tree represented from mere empirical observation. He could only see the physical dynamics of the tree. For the rest, he must rely upon what God had told him about the tree. Man requires instruction from God to protect him from that which he has no point of reference to understand. As the Creator, God understood things about the nature of man and his relationship to his environment that man did not know and was not created to know. Man was not endowed with the capacity to distinguish between good knowledge and evil knowledge. This truth has not changed. The knowledge provided by this tree was not a necessary component for man to fulfill his role within his assigned environment.

The environment of the garden supplied every conceivable human need. He was even given access to the tree of life. The garden was a secure environment where man had no experience with fear, shame, and disgrace. These were yet unknown elements. It was an aesthetic environment where God controlled access to knowledge. There were certain things that man knew by design, but the prohibition of the tree says that there were those things which man should never want to know or seek to know.

In the garden, man enjoyed the presence of God and the full awareness of God. God knew that through disobedience man would be exiled from this controlled and protected environment and from his fellowship with God. By violating God’s prohibition, man challenged the sovereignty of God. Man does not have the authority to mandate a standard of moral conduct. The text of Genesis shows us that this level of knowledge belongs exclusively to God. Because man chose to behave sinfully, he is now confronted with a new reality. Adam is now aware of a particular type of knowledge that will forever change the way mankind represents the relationship he has with the natural world and with his God. It also laid a foundation by which humanity would forever be forced to choose between these two epistemologies. Should we represent reality based on revelation from God or should we rely on those things learned from pragmatic experiences? Which one will we depend upon to tell us the truth about what is relevant?

Now, man has access to the knowledge of good and evil. This presents two problems: First, man does not know the difference between good and evil and secondly, history shows us that when man is left to his own, he will more often than not choose the evil to his own destruction, even when revelation is present. In Genesis 6:5, we see that by the time Noah comes on the scene, “every imagination of the thoughts of the heart is only evil continually,” (RSV). The fact that revelation was available to that generation is evident in the character of Noah. God regarded Noah as “righteous in his generation.” Righteousness is the result of submitting one’s self to revealed constraints. This deterioration of a divinely established ethic shows a complete reversal of a revealed epistemology. This is what happens when the mind of man becomes isolated from the revelation of God. This isolation was willful, deliberate, and fatal. When man is left to himself without a desire for revealed knowledge, he is characteristically self-destructive. If man is to survive spiritually in a cursed environment, it will require a standard that will enable him to represent properly his assigned place within creation.

 

[oldhermit]

When Satan approached Eve in the garden, he confronts her about the tree of knowledge. Eve rehearsed the commandment that God had given to them about this tree saying, “from the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat, but of the tree that is in the midst of the garden you may not eat from it or touch it lest you die.” This represents a revealed language structure about certain truths concerning this tree that she could not know any other way. Satan then introduced a new way of thinking about what is true. He portrays this revealed grammar as unreliable and not to be trusted. “You shall not surely die for God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened and you will be like God knowing good and evil.” The idea obviously appealed to Eve but the force of the temptation was more than just a desire to be like God. This new way of representing truth offered a means by which control could be shifted from God to man.

She relies upon an unrevealed method for making decisions. Rather than consulting God and relying upon revelation which, by her own admission she understood, she relies instead upon her five senses operating in this natural world to formulate her epistemological base. She “rationalizes” why it would be acceptable to eat that which had been forbidden. This reveals a distorted ethic in the misappropriation of things that belong to God. She contemplated stealing that which belonged to God and then attempted to justify the rightness of it in her own mind.

The serpent's temptation was two-fold based upon the decision matrix of the woman. This would imply that Satan understood something of the psychology of the woman and he capitalizes on her naiveté. Experientially, Eve knows nothing of Satan, temptation, evil, craftiness, the pain of disobedience, or death. The serpent creates doubt in her mind about the motives, character, and purpose of God. He accused God of lying and planted the seed of evil ambition. “God knows that in the day you eat of it you will become like God.” The reality was that she was already like God. Satan creates suspicion in the mind of the woman by implying that God is deliberately withholding something from her that is both desirable and beneficial. It implies that, 1) man is just as good as God is, 2) God is unjust in this prohibition, and 3) man has the right to be God. This is a challenge of God’s sovereignty. At the heart of this, is the question of who has the right to be in control? Who has the right to decide what is best for man? A worldly epistemology says that man has the wisdom to decide what is best for him. A revealed epistemology says that God not only knows what is best, he is also able to supply it.

The serpent then makes an appeal to the empirical and aesthetic observation. Eve saw that the fruit was good for food and was pleasing to the eye. He also appeals to the subjective impulse; it was desirable to make one wise, which the text defines as knowing good from evil. Where then was the sin? The sin was allowing human logic and rationalization to overrule the revelation of God. This is a propensity of humanly derived standards of ethics. The decision was made by appealing to an uninspired epistemology rather than to the words of the Lord. Human logic and rationalization are not valid determinants for deciding what is right or wrong. God said, “Don’t touch it.” This alone determines what is right or wrong.​

 

[bbyrd009]

If a brother or sister in Christ were to do these things to you, how would you react? Would you just automatically be like, "oh, it's okay. And, BAM-their forgiven and your hurt has vanished just like that! Especially if they have not even owned up to these things?

ha well, that depends i guess; do you mean when i'm entering the kingdom or leaving it? :) i usually do what you are doing, at least i did until i got rid of everything i owned...or tried anyway; interesting lesson, that. It's like 7 years later and since then i got a...well, you simply would not believe me and i wouldnt blame you lol. Just try demonstrating to ppl that you don't have any use for money anymore and see what happens lol

There is much more than meets your eye here Mark...she lived here for over a year and a half...Even though she does not do the computer, I do not want to put allot out there as, it would not be very kind so, God says to me, "Just love and pray for her". I get that allot, lol.

you are fam with the theory that our intercessory prayers are really for ourselves, yes? Can't import a Gsearch, arg. Anyway, briefly, hard to have a hard heart towards someone we are praying "for" i guess?

 

[Nancy]

ha well, that depends i guess; do you mean when i'm entering the kingdom or leaving it? :) i usually do what you are doing, at least i did until i got rid of everything i owned...or tried anyway; interesting lesson, that. It's like 7 years later and since then i got a...well, you simply would not believe me and i wouldnt blame you lol. Just try demonstrating to ppl that you don't have any use for money anymore and see what happens lol
you are fam with the theory that our intercessory prayers are really for ourselves, yes? Can't import a Gsearch, arg. Anyway, briefly, hard to have a hard heart towards someone we are praying "for" i guess?

"ha well, that depends i guess; do you mean when i'm entering the kingdom or leaving it? :)"
That is way over my head at the moment...
It matters not at all the "cost" of these perishables. If she were even to ask, I would have let her have them. Still...there is more to this story as to what else that was taken...let's leave it at that? ♥
"our intercessory prayers are really for ourselves, yes? <--- Sure, I suppose in a couple ways at least. In one way, if the IP (Intercessory prayer :) ) is for ones you hold dear, I suppose that can be viewed as a selfish prayer? But then there is praying like this when it can take a bit to come to the heart thing...as - wanting to do it, for someone who has so hurt and disappointed you.
"Anyway, briefly, hard to have a hard heart towards someone we are praying "for" i guess?" <--- Yep! But, He brings us there when we have a willing heart ♥

 

[bbyrd009]

So, if you sin, do you not need to confess and ask forgiveness?

1 John 2:2 Lexicon: and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
and
Who told you that you were naked?
(It was not I
AM accusing you, nopenopenope)

See, forgiveness does not save one from wanting to hide from the light, and if you doubt this then loan twenty bucks to a flake and forget all about it, cause you're never getting it back anyway right, and watch what they do around you after that lol. Of course the minute you ask for it back or get POed, you lose, but never mind that for a sec

So, if you sin, do you not need to confess and ask forgiveness? The forgiveness I have given her IS from my heart, it is NOT lip service. Yes, it took several weeks to come to peace with it and become able to honestly pray for her welfare.

(and then you got POed all over agin, ahem)

and ps she is doing great i guess, she is working it lol, she prolly even has an apartment she can't afford or something :)

and she is riding you like a pony, right now, feel the spurs yet?
Bam get POed ok. At her even if you want. Every time you get mad about it, that is her getting over, renting space in your head, and ill even tell you what is gonna happen when she loses that apt ok, that's when she shows up crying "confession" wolf tears, and round #whatever begins. What round would that be, btw?

 

[bbyrd009]

He 30 yr. old son had no intentions of moving in with her to pay half.

he learned from the best i guess

She is on SSI and she only takes in 800 per month.

gee, surprise.

"Codependent No More" is the name of the book, ok, or go get a doormat and have "Nancy" put on it, sweetheart. You have a heart of gold, ok, that's obvious, and it is just 1949 at Sutter's Mill with you, ok? See she is one of your "projects," someone you are "helping," and i know this is hard to hear, because i had to too, but those ppl know to look for ppl like us who um haven't sold their robes yet, ok. Do yourself a solid and read that book imo