The Flawed Reasoning Of Total Depravity

[Nancy]

This one from Calvin

That’s how it was looked upon then and by most Reformed folks now.
Blessings
Bill

Believe it or not, I have heard and read many quotes as well as teachings from Calvinists. Many have wonderful, scriptural teachings. I also am aware that John Calvin had differing views with his fellow believers. I do not throw out the baby with the bathwater, lol.

 

[Laish]

I do not throw out the baby with the bathwater, lol.

Oh no infant baptism . Let's not go there
Blessings
Bill

 

[brakelite]

Lol no because this is from a foot note the writers used for the confession it referenced Calvin’s institutes read up
Westminster confession of faith 16:
Section 7) Works done by unregenerate men, although, for the matter of them, they may be things which God commands, and of good use both to themselves and others;1) yet, because they proceed not from an heart purified by faith;(2) nor are done in a right manner, according to the Word;(3) nor to a right end, the glory of God;(4) they are therefore sinful, and cannot please God, or make a man meet to receive grace from God.
Blessings
Bill

So is it an assumption on your part or any of your friends part that many/most/all here on this forum can be numbered with the above transgressors, and if so, why?

 

[Laish]

So is it an assumption on your part or any of your friends part that many/most/all here on this forum can be numbered with the above transgressors, and if so, why?

I don’t understand what you mean . What I posted is about the state of those that are not Christians or not yet Christian. What led you to think of that?
Or am I not understanding you post .
Blessings
Bill

 

[brakelite]

I don’t understand what you mean . What I posted is about the state of those that are not Christians or not yet Christian. What led you to think of that?
Or am I not understanding you post .
Blessings
Bill

No, you have not misunderstood... I am not accusing you of believing that, but I am simply wanting to be clear on how you think, that is all. I do not get any impression from other reform believers on this forum that they consider anyone who happens to disagree with them on the subject of 'election' to be saved...it seems to me, and it is to be hoped that I am wrong, that simply because we don't concur completely with the 5 points, it is assumed therefore that we all are striving to be saved by our own works and "choices", without any input from God. Such is the extreme of Calvinism, assuming anyone in opposition or in disagreement are 'extreme' Arminians. Such is not the case...at least not always.

 

[Laish]

No, you have not misunderstood... I am not accusing you of believing that, but I am simply wanting to be clear on how you think, that is all. I do not get any impression from other reform believers on this forum that they consider anyone who happens to disagree with them on the subject of 'election' to be saved...it seems to me, and it is to be hoped that I am wrong, that simply because we don't concur completely with the 5 points, it is assumed therefore that we all are striving to be saved by our own works and "choices", without any input from God. Such is the extreme of Calvinism, assuming anyone in opposition or in disagreement are 'extreme' Arminians. Such is not the case...at least not always.

Well brakelite I don’t believe that salvation comes from being Reformed. It’s the faith in and trust in our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ , His life ,works , death and resurrection . Also a understanding of God that dose not rob Him of his Devine character or attributes.
That and I am not in the business for the most part of determining if folks saved or not . I will leave that to Catholic folks lol .
Blessings
Bill

 

[Preacher4Truth]

@brakelite , Sir, a request. Please stop false accusations and assertions that "Reformed folk" on here deem all others as lost.

It's untrue.

What we are saying is that the teachings of others are not true Christianity, that these do not reflect biblical truths and are askew. There is a vast misunderstanding of the Gospel and of soteriology.

Please end the accusations. I've asked this of you several times.

I want to add we are only here to make the Gospel clear and to render all glory to God alone in salvation.

 

[brakelite]

@brakelite , Sir, a request. Please stop false accusations and assertions that "Reformed folk" on here deem all others as lost.

It's untrue.

What we are saying is that the teachings of others are not true Christianity, that these do not reflect biblical truths and are askew. There is a vast misunderstanding of the Gospel and of soteriology.

Please end the accusations. I've asked this of you several times.

I want to add we are only here to make the Gospel clear and to render all glory to God alone in salvation.

So a vast misunderstanding of the gospel... Untrue Christianity... And biblically askew teachings... Though wrong, don't affect salvation?
And I would repeat that choosing salvation over damnation, as a result of the constant promptings and convicting and leading of the holy Spirit, does render all glory to God. No one I know takes the credit for choosing to go with Jesus over Satan, as if by our own wisdom we decided on the correct course. No, let him that glory, glory in this... That I am the Lord that exercises loving kindness, righteousness, and judgement in the earth, for in these things I delight.

 

[brakelite]

@brakelite , Sir, a request. Please stop false accusations and assertions that "Reformed folk" on here deem all others as lost.

It's untrue.

What we are saying is that the teachings of others are not true Christianity, that these do not reflect biblical truths and are askew. There is a vast misunderstanding of the Gospel and of soteriology.

Please end the accusations. I've asked this of you several times.

I want to add we are only here to make the Gospel clear and to render all glory to God alone in salvation.

All that said, I am relieved. Nevertheless, I think you need to be more careful in your choice of wording...I guess you are aware of the joke about Calvinists in heaven right? That Jesus avoids introducing them to any newcomers so they won't be disillusioned with the entry criteria? Not my joke, but obviously we are not alone in coming to such conclusions.

 

[marks]

Hey, I am not a robot...a robot...a robot...beep...bonk....boop....a robot....bzzzz....woop....a robot...

How sad it comes to this.

 

[SovereignGrace]

How sad it comes to this.

We don’t say ppl are robots, but your side say we do.

 

[marks]

We don’t say ppl are robots, but your side say we do.

I was referring to the mocking.

 

[SovereignGrace]

How sad it comes to this.

How sad it is to have ppl misrepresent our beliefs and after telling them our beliefs still misrepresent our beliefs.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I was referring to the mocking.

We don’t say ppl are robots and yet get accused of it. Quit misrepresenting our beliefs.

 

[marks]

How sad it is to have ppl misrepresent our beliefs and after telling them our beliefs still misrepresent our beliefs.

If I have I apologize.

Is it your view that mankind was made by God to conform to a certain end, in which God would be glorified in those whom God alone selected becoming glorified in Christ through the cross, with the remaining, who were not selected, glorifying God in receiving the fit punishment to their sins?

And that mankind is completely incapable of having any effect on the outcome, being completely depraved and therefore unable to do anything other than sin, unless first regenerated by the sovereign and sole act of God?

Do I understand this right?

Much love!

 

[Preacher4Truth]

We don’t say ppl are robots and yet get accused of it.

They can only see true salvation as that of persons being robots in it (hatred for God electing whom he wills and none other, based upon nothing in them, solely for his purpose) -- they demand themselves to be free in their wills. It is nothing short of telling God they will do what they desire and choose, it is rebellion, witchcraft if you will according to Scripture. Many are of this group; John 6:65-66.

That they think they chose themselves into heaven, and were picked because God saw they would come to him out of genuine love is a false gospel, and is merit, not grace.

Quit misrepresenting our beliefs.

They must do this. It is all and has to be all based upon untruths, out of context Bible, everything they've given is on a shaky untrue foundation. We've shown them this, they will never end misrepresenting, it is all they have, they must base it all on a fallacy because if they based it on what we truly believe they'd have nothing.

 

[Enoch111]

That they think they chose themselves into heaven, and were picked because God saw they would come to him out of genuine love is a false gospel, and is merit, not grace.

This is simply a FALSE ACCUSATION from one who promotes A FALSE GOSPEL.

Christians who oppose and reject Calvinism definitely do not see salvation as being merited. But Calvinists substitute sovereignty for grace, and then distort all Gospel truth. According to you Christ died only for the elect, and since the elect are totally unable to respond to the Gospel, they were regenerated BEFORE they were saved and experienced something called "irresistible grace". Do you see the absurdity of this belief?

But every Calvinist made A CHOICE (if he or she was truly saved). To either repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ or refuse to obey the Gospel. So Calvinists also chose themselves into Heaven (if that is the caricature you wish to convey).

 

[Enoch111]

They must do this. It is all and has to be all based upon untruths, out of context Bible, everything they've given is on a shaky untrue foundation.

I believe you are describing Five Point Calvinism (TULIP):

TOTAL DEPRAVITY --- FALSE
UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION -- FALSE
LIMITED ATONEMENT -- FALSE
IRRESISTIBLE GRACE -- FALSE
PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS -- FALSE

 

[Jon Mathews]

Though being spiritually dead, we can still respond to God's generous invitation to "come now, let us reason together."

Lazaurus could not come to Jesus until Jesus said "Lazarus, come forth". Lazarus was in "Total depravity".

 

[Enoch111]

Lazaurus could not come to Jesus until Jesus said "Lazarus, come forth". Lazarus was in "Total depravity".

Lazarus and his sisters were believers, and Lazarus was physically dead, not in Total Depravity. So this was a miracle of the raising of the dead. And the power of the miracle was that Christ simply summoned Lazarus out of his tomb, and he immediately received life and walked out. His soul had been in Sheol-Hades, while his body was in the tomb, but for Jesus that made no difference. He has the keys of Death and Hades.

All human beings are spiritually dead at birth, but very much alive in all other respects. And because they are spiritually dead, God has made provision for sinners to respond to the Gospel and then be quickened (made alive) in their spirits. The Gospel itself is the power of God unto salvation (Rom 1:16), and the seed of the New Birth (1 Peter 1:23-25). But when the Gospel is preached or read, the Holy Spirit is right there to both convict and convince the sinner to obey the Gospel (John 16:7-11). And it is only AFTER repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ that sinners receive the gift of eternal life and the gift of the Holy Spirit, and only then are they born of the Spirit (born again).

The false doctrine of Total Depravity claims that sinners cannot even respond to the Gospel, therefore they must be regenerated (born again) before they repent and believe. This is not only absurd but unbiblical.