The reality is that you don't have any answer to what we are saying; and therefore you do not have any valid response.
The Flawed Reasoning Of Total Depravity
- Thread starter Phoneman777
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Read in context JBF all of it this goes well into Romans 11 remember this is a letter that has no chapter and verse markings ok . It’s a complete idea also the stuff in all caps is not shouting it’s just showing reference to OT scripture ok ? Also do you know what is being asked for when Paul says to call upon the Lord ? It’s not just simple prayer for salvation in a belief sense . Read on
A clue lies in the fact that those that call must first believe look at verse 14 .
13for “WHOEVER WILL CALL UPON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.” 14How then shall they call upon Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15And how shall they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, “HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GLAD TIDINGS OF GOOD THINGS!”
16However, they did not all heed the glad tidings; for Isaiah says, “LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?” 17So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. 18But I say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have;
“THEIR VOICE HAS GONE OUT INTO ALL THE EARTH,
AND THEIR WORDS TO THE ENDS OF THE WORLD.”
19But I say, surely Israel did not know, did they? At the first Moses says,
“I WILL MAKE YOU JEALOUS BY THAT WHICH IS NOT A NATION,
BY A NATION WITHOUT UNDERSTANDING WILL I ANGER YOU.”
20And Isaiah is very bold and says,
“I WAS FOUND BY THOSE WHO SOUGHT ME NOT,
I BECAME MANIFEST TO THOSE WHO DID NOT ASK FOR ME.”
21But as for Israel He says, “ALL THE DAY LONG I HAVE STRETCHED OUT MY HANDS TO A DISOBEDIENT AND OBSTINATE PEOPLE.”
Romans 11:
1I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? 3“Lord, THEY HAVE KILLED THY PROPHETS, THEY HAVE TORN DOWN THINE ALTARS, AND I ALONE AM LEFT, AND THEY ARE SEEKING MY LIFE.” 4But what is the divine response to him? “I HAVE KEPT for Myself SEVEN THOUSAND MEN WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL.” 5In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice.6But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace. 7What then? That which Israel is seeking for, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened; 8just as it is written,
“GOD GAVE THEM A SPIRIT OF STUPOR,
EYES TO SEE NOT AND EARS TO HEAR NOT,
DOWN TO THIS VERY DAY.”
9And David says,
“LET THEIR TABLE BECOME A SNARE AND A TRAP,
AND A STUMBLING BLOCK AND A RETRIBUTION TO THEM.
10“LET THEIR EYES BE DARKENED TO SEE NOT,
AND BEND THEIR BACKS FOREVER.”
Read it in context
Blessings
Bill
@Preacher4Truth I thought you were leaving because we are all a waste of time? But before you go, I have a question. If I choose (oh my goodness, what have I said). If for arguments sake I do have the power to choose, and I decide to leave my self induced unsaved works' related faith in the gutter behind me, and revert back to my drinking, smoking weed, cursing, abusing my wife, failing in my career etc etc, enjoy 'sin for a season' , lay back, and then wait on the Lord to 'convert' me according to His will and purpose as per your beliefs, would that be a good idea if it were to somehow make my life more fulfilled, seeing as how my current Christian life , at least according to you, couldn't possibly be fulfilling anything because it is false?
Or...on the other hand, if I don't have the power to choose, and the Christian life I am now living is indeed according to the will of God, then how can it be 'unsaved, unborn again, works based, self induced choice driven' as you and your friends constantly accuse me of?
And if I have no desire whatsoever to ever revert back to a life I now hate with a vengeance and am ashamed of so much of it, is that because I choose not to, or because God made me that way according to His purpose? If He made me that way according to His purpose, then how come I am not saved in accordance to Calvinism...and if I am what I am because of my own choices, how is that possible without the Spirit of God moving me and making me what and who I am?
My point is this. The greatest testimony any of us possess that we are indeed born again by the Spirit of God is NOT our beliefs, but a changed life. A changed life that without God is absolutely impossible, as you Calvinists love so much to emphasise. So we all who are testifying to the miraculous transformation that God alone has produced in our lives, what right have you or your friends to come here and tell us we are not saved and not born again because our beliefs are not in line with your own when our own lives testify to the work of God, and Him alone, that we are indeed born again, regardless of what you or anyone else may think.
Or...on the other hand, if I don't have the power to choose, and the Christian life I am now living is indeed according to the will of God, then how can it be 'unsaved, unborn again, works based, self induced choice driven' as you and your friends constantly accuse me of?
And if I have no desire whatsoever to ever revert back to a life I now hate with a vengeance and am ashamed of so much of it, is that because I choose not to, or because God made me that way according to His purpose? If He made me that way according to His purpose, then how come I am not saved in accordance to Calvinism...and if I am what I am because of my own choices, how is that possible without the Spirit of God moving me and making me what and who I am?
My point is this. The greatest testimony any of us possess that we are indeed born again by the Spirit of God is NOT our beliefs, but a changed life. A changed life that without God is absolutely impossible, as you Calvinists love so much to emphasise. So we all who are testifying to the miraculous transformation that God alone has produced in our lives, what right have you or your friends to come here and tell us we are not saved and not born again because our beliefs are not in line with your own when our own lives testify to the work of God, and Him alone, that we are indeed born again, regardless of what you or anyone else may think.
Preacher4Truth
Well-Known Member
First, it is duly noted in your polemic you've offered zero biblical evidence or support.
Stating a person isn't worth responding to is just that and nothing more.
The above shows you cannot follow a simple conversation and read things into it that were not stated. This carries over into everything you read, and into all of your responses. You really need to take note of this, it's a serious issue with you.
Now, let me deal with this next statement you offer:
The above statement is juvenile. Just an observation of your behavior, please put this aside.
It is also utterly unbiblical and a mockery of truth. No man is saved by their will, effort via choice. John 1:13; James 1:18.
Huge run on sentence, however, I'll try to make sense of it.
You're saying you chose yourself into heaven, but what if you begin doing the above sins instead because after all your effort didn't save you, and then wait for the LORD to convert you while you live in sin, because, after all it is the LORD who saves, not choosing?
Instead of going down such a road of foolishness as you've hypothesized, it would be better for you to examine yourself as to whether you are in the faith, truly converted, sound in the faith, sound in doctrine, handle the word correctly and in context. The fact that you miss much of these things is concerning, and you will not receive correction from Scripture when given you. I'd be more concerned about that than your absurd scenario.
Lastly, I don't know if you're converted, or not. I certainly hope so. What I am saying is that your teachings are not Christian for the most part. That doesn't necessitate that you aren't converted though, just mistaken.
Also, you never address the Scriptures given you that dismantle your beliefs. Never. Instead, you go into insult mode. This was my first exchange with you on here, I offered Scripture and a rebuttal, you came back and attacked in one of your threads, and made certain to insult me in the process.
But, you want us to know how moral and changed you are. Hmmmm. Something isn't adding up here.
Your above sentence is incoherent rambling. Sorry.
Note Philippians 1:13. But this is for those who have inward and outward grace, not moral reformation and legalism.
Read above again.
Even a lost person can reform their lives for a time, this is why I've given the advice of biblical examination. Note Matthew 12:43-45.
The fact you reject much truth in contextual Scripture given is a concern. Some people get religion, but not true conversion. You're aware of this, correct? They see the morality and legalism they've embraced by choosing as conversion. "I stopped doing this, started doing that, I don't do what he does, or she does, don't drink, smoke, abuse my wife, kids. I work hard." Hmmmm. Reminds me of Luke 18:9-14.
Furthermore, you speak much of yourself in this manner. In addition to this you're actually bearing false witness about myself and others in this post of yours. This is also concerning, this loathing that comes from you, and your defiance to be corrected by Scripture.
Hopefully, by God's grace we will see a change in your behavior showing perhaps some inward workings of grace. So far, you've shown us the outside of the cup, your moral reform, but the inside is showing itself.
Let me ask: When we have shown solid Biblical evidence for our beliefs, but have been called Satan, Luciferians, lost, reprobates, a cult, did you ever come out to say one word toward such individuals? No. I'd guess you accepted these things gleefully?
False dichotomy. This is your major error, you think you can divorce sound doctrine, truth, Scriptural truth in context from the equation for a legalistic morality. You lean toward the latter, not the former.
You've conflated a changed moral life with genuine conversion. Now, that aside, our LORD spoke of the impossibility of conversion by man's effort, that it is only by God; John 6:63; John 6:44; John 6:65; John 6:29 and so do we. The above appears and comes across as taking a swipe at us for such a belief. That really makes me wonder...
But this isn't the case. None of you have shown you understand it is God alone and not only do you adamantly reject Scripture given you that shows this, but you have an aversion to giving God all the glory. Read carefully 1 Corinthians 1:26-31.
I've not said you were lost, the above is bearing false witness. What right do your friends have to say these things about us? Perhaps you should ask them?
I'd further this with saying that each of us needs to examine ourselves as to being converted, or not. Some only have legalism, works, morality, not conversion. They check all the boxes of what they do, don't do, compare themselves &c. That isn't conversion, it's religion.
Your beliefs aren't sound and you reject biblical contextual truth, then you insult those who offer it. That was my first experience with you after a simple response and Scripture given on one of your threads. You do this to others as well. You should really be concerned about this...
Now, when you actually want to listen to contextual Scriptural truths, and set aside your presuppositions, without your personal insults, being offended, speaking much of your morality, offering up mockery, bearing false witness, in other words, have a man to man conversation instead, I'd be more than glad to engage you.
Last edited:
Actually, no. It is you who has conflated a changed moral life with genuine conversion by intimating throughout the discussion that everything I am today is not conversion, but my own effort. Despite my testimony that declared....
...and it was not a 'swipe', but an agreement on the very basis of justification and sanctification..."for without Me ye can do nothing".
Yet if we cannot do anything, according to Calvinism, about the result of such an investigation, what would be the point? Which is the gist of my entire post above.
So, you believe that what a verse is actually saying can be nullified by the context?
If so, then we hold to a different Bible hermeneutic.
If the scripture seems to contradict itself, then there is a reconciliation of understanding that is there, that the Lord would have us to seek to understand.
Last edited:
Hi Laish,
Where have I done this? Any of these?
I posit that if we are to be teachers of others, that we determine to teach with patience and love.
I know, in some ways this forum feels like a snake pit.
My wife asks me why I do this.
But if we believe we have received something good from the Lord, and as we have freely received, we are to freely give, does that mean speak harshly and carry a big sledge hammer?
I know, it takes effort to take it in and take it in and not dish it back, that that's what pleases our Heavenly Father, is it not?
And as we all come on here sharing all of our opinions and views with others, what the Bible means to me, and explaining in detail what we mean, I know I need to keep in mind James words, to paraphrase, you who want to teach, watch out! You will be judged more strictly. I don't know exactly what that will look like, just the same I take it very seriously. I think we all need to.
Some things I respond to, some things I don't. I try to go by what I think will be most edifying, and sometimes I find I get snippy too.
I think it's a good matter for prayer.
Much love!
Mark
That's how many times I clicked before I realized it wasn't getting me anywhere!
LOL, well, I do appreciate your persistence. I assume then you "get" what I was getting at in that post...not sure if it was phrased clearly enough to get the point across. I knew what I was thinking; putting it down on … ummm … paper? proved somewhat more complicated. Methinks several others reading it didn't "get" it.
I confess I have let out a snip or two also. Always feel bad about them after...God's working on that ;)
I don’t understand how you got this . Sense it is context that adds understanding.
Scripture is given in a orderly manner in context to show us what is meant . It follows a direct line to instruct the reader . With out context there is disorder .
So my answer is No . Context only nullified your understanding not the verse .Lets remember Paul wrote Romans without chapters or verses . Chapters and verses are helpful tools for location but not understanding scripture . Please note that verse and chapter separation is something added to scripture. It was done over 1400 years after the NT was completed. None of the writers of the NT put in numbers verses or chapters when they wrote . We need the whole of scripture in context to understand what is being said .
I guess so . I tend to look at the whole of scripture taking it to fact context ,audience ,setting, genre , and date among other things like similar passages found elsewhere in Scripture .
Scripture never contradicts Scripture . Contradiction found in Scripture shows we only need to hit the Scriptures harder . Perhaps adding a dictionary with Greek and Hebrew lexicons .
Blessings
Bill
You did use the word us in your post .
My point was about the general tone directed at some of the Reformed folks here .
As concerning your last remark yea we all can use some prayer . If you have some shoot some our way and I can do the same .
Blessings
Bill
Last edited:
My understanding is not nullified by the context, either.
But I think that you intended for it to be so.
I guess this is where we differ. I see the context set forth in scripture is as important as what is being said .ie the very words being used .
Blessings
Bill
Last edited:
You've illuminated yet another way that this doctrine just doesn't work.
If I accept that I am not chosen, and all this is false faith, then I can keep it or walk away from it, so what, I'm just as well off as being drunk in the gutter. Some would probably agree.
If you accept that I am chosen, then what's all this nonsense about my false faith?
But I repudiate my past life, I rise above my past life, and is that just me? And if I don't make those choices then why have I come to God? Why are my wicked ways changed? If God didn't choose me?
If I cannot choose, then God chose me for this. And this is a Christian walk wrapped in Christian faith in the Christian God but you say I'm not a Christian?
And I've re-written this about 5 times . . . it gets interesting!
But I have to say . . . I totally don't believe that what's happened in my life has happened through some "false faith". That would be absurd!
I've come to rest on the testimony of my changed life as part of my understanding of what God is doing.
So, are we on the same page?
Much love!
Heavenly Father, Thank you for this forum, and everyone who is posting here. I ask that you would bind us together in love, that first, before anything, we would choose to love each other.
I pray you would give us clarity of mind as we both write and read that this would truly be for our edification.
And I ask that you would lead us away from angers and envyings, and into the confidence of knowing You.
It's in Jesus name that we pray!
Similar threads
