The Flawed Reasoning Of Total Depravity

[Phoneman777]

When considering the Five Points of Calvinism, the first point - "total depravity" - insists that:

• man, being dead in sin, cannot desire to escape the punishment of sin any more than a dead man desires to escape the grave he's buried in
• man cannot "accept Christ" as his Savior from sin because "accepting" is an act of works which would render his salvation by works.

However, when we consider that "she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth" - we see the Bible puts spiritual death in the present tense while we are yet alive. Though being spritually dead, we can still respond to God's generous invitation to "come now, let us reason together."

Reasoning together for what purpose? For God to justify to the lost His "celestial eternal-life lottery" of which they can't even buy a ticket? Obviously, He asks us to "reason together" with Him so that we can make an informed choice about the crucial issue He so desperately wants us to consider: "sin unto death or obedience unto righteousness". The choice to accept Jesus as Savior is not "works", but a thought.

The battle for our eternal destiny begins and ends in the mind, by either choosing to remain a servant of sin or choosing salvation by grace through faith in Christ through which God makes us a child of the King.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

When considering the Five Points of Calvinism, the first point - "total depravity" - insists that:

• man, being dead in sin, cannot desire to escape the punishment of sin any more than a dead man desires to escape the grave he's buried in
• man cannot "accept Christ" as his Savior from sin because "accepting" is an act of works which would render his salvation by works.

However, when we consider that "she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth" - we see the Bible puts spiritual death in the present tense while we are yet alive. Though being spritually dead, we can still respond to God's generous invitation to "come now, let us reason together."

Reasoning together for what purpose? For God to justify to the lost His "celestial eternal-life lottery" of which they can't even buy a ticket? Obviously, He asks us to "reason together" with Him so that we can make an informed choice about the crucial issue He so desperately wants us to consider: "sin unto death or obedience unto righteousness". The choice to accept Jesus as Savior is not "works", but a thought.

The battle for our eternal destiny begins and ends in the mind, by either choosing to remain a servant of sin or choosing salvation by grace through faith in Christ through which God makes us a child of the King.

There are also other reasons you may not have thought of that the Trinity has supplied.

1. It was the Tree of Knowledge of GOOD and Evil, not just evil.

2. The Trinity has given gifts.

Romans 12 shows gifts from God, the Father, to mankind, and one is the measure of faith. We must choose WHAT to have faith in. But everyone has the ability to have faith, which is trust.

1 Corinthians 12 shows gifts that the Holy Spirit has supplied to strengthen the Church for the profit of all.

Ephesians 4 shows gifts that Jesus has given to the Church as offices.

And when we are baptized in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit - the whole Trinity, we are given gifts to all who believe in the Father's Son who is filled with the Holy Spirit, and gives the Spirit to His own to make them born again of the Spirit of Christ. Those gifts from the Trinity are found in Mark 16:16-18.

 

[marks]

When considering the Five Points of Calvinism, the first point - "total depravity" - insists that:

• man, being dead in sin, cannot desire to escape the punishment of sin any more than a dead man desires to escape the grave he's buried in
• man cannot "accept Christ" as his Savior from sin because "accepting" is an act of works which would render his salvation by works.

However, when we consider that "she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth" - we see the Bible puts spiritual death in the present tense while we are yet alive. Though being spritually dead, we can still respond to God's generous invitation to "come now, let us reason together."

Reasoning together for what purpose? For God to justify to the lost His "celestial eternal-life lottery" of which they can't even buy a ticket? Obviously, He asks us to "reason together" with Him so that we can make an informed choice about the crucial issue He so desperately wants us to consider: "sin unto death or obedience unto righteousness". The choice to accept Jesus as Savior is not "works", but a thought.

The battle for our eternal destiny begins and ends in the mind, by either choosing to remain a servant of sin or choosing salvation by grace through faith in Christ through which God makes us a child of the King.

Hi Phoneman777,

If God has not given choice to man, then all of this we live in is nothing more than God's storytime, played out live action. And what God calls depraved God initiates, if all choice remains with God.

And that's not in the Bible I read.

Much love!
Mark

 

[Phoneman777]

Hi Phoneman777,

If God has not given choice to man, then all of this we live in is nothing more than God's storytime, played out live action. And what God calls depraved God initiates, if all choice remains with God.

And that's not in the Bible I read.

Much love!
Mark

Hi Mark! CoreIssue posted this pic - sums the whole thing up :)

 

[farouk]

The strong language of Ephesians 2 is more of an indication that it is flawed to deny human depravity.

This is why we need to rely on the grace of God, of which Ephesians 2 speaks most wondrously.

 

[marks]

Hi Mark! CoreIssue posted this pic - sums the whole thing up :)View attachment 6009

that was easy!

 

[Enoch111]

The strong language of Ephesians 2 is more of an indication that it is flawed to deny human depravity.

Total Depravity (in TULIP) = Total Inability to respond to the Gospel.
THAT IS TOTALLY FALSE.

This is why we need to rely on the grace of God, of which Ephesians 2 speaks most wondrously.

Relying on the grace of God means believing the Gospel, repenting, and receiving Christ as Lord and Savior. The grace of God offers salvation to all mankind (Titus 2:11). But a decision and a choice must be made by everyone who hears the Gospel (Acts 2:38). That is neither works nor so-called "self-righteousness", since the focus in entirely and absolutely on Christ and His finished work of redemption.

How does one receive a gift? By simply extending the hand and receiving it, and thanking the giver. And that is what obedience to the Gospel means.

 

[Waiting on him]

When considering the Five Points of Calvinism, the first point - "total depravity" - insists that:

• man, being dead in sin, cannot desire to escape the punishment of sin any more than a dead man desires to escape the grave he's buried in
• man cannot "accept Christ" as his Savior from sin because "accepting" is an act of works which would render his salvation by works.

However, when we consider that "she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth" - we see the Bible puts spiritual death in the present tense while we are yet alive. Though being spritually dead, we can still respond to God's generous invitation to "come now, let us reason together."

Reasoning together for what purpose? For God to justify to the lost His "celestial eternal-life lottery" of which they can't even buy a ticket? Obviously, He asks us to "reason together" with Him so that we can make an informed choice about the crucial issue He so desperately wants us to consider: "sin unto death or obedience unto righteousness". The choice to accept Jesus as Savior is not "works", but a thought.

The battle for our eternal destiny begins and ends in the mind, by either choosing to remain a servant of sin or choosing salvation by grace through faith in Christ through which God makes us a child of the King.

I don’t understand this is God speaking to blind Israel, which he blinded

 

[Nancy]

When considering the Five Points of Calvinism, the first point - "total depravity" - insists that:

• man, being dead in sin, cannot desire to escape the punishment of sin any more than a dead man desires to escape the grave he's buried in
• man cannot "accept Christ" as his Savior from sin because "accepting" is an act of works which would render his salvation by works.

However, when we consider that "she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth" - we see the Bible puts spiritual death in the present tense while we are yet alive. Though being spritually dead, we can still respond to God's generous invitation to "come now, let us reason together."

Reasoning together for what purpose? For God to justify to the lost His "celestial eternal-life lottery" of which they can't even buy a ticket? Obviously, He asks us to "reason together" with Him so that we can make an informed choice about the crucial issue He so desperately wants us to consider: "sin unto death or obedience unto righteousness". The choice to accept Jesus as Savior is not "works", but a thought.

The battle for our eternal destiny begins and ends in the mind, by either choosing to remain a servant of sin or choosing salvation by grace through faith in Christ through which God makes us a child of the King.

Agreed. Also, who are we to refuse to accept a gift from The Creator? I know I accepted His awesome gift...how they call that works is beyond me. But then, most of their apologetic s contain an awful lot of scripture wresting to make their belief fit...and even then, it DOESN'T!

 

[Enoch111]

I don’t understand this is God speaking to blind Israel, which he blinded

The question is"Why was unbelieving Israel blinded spiritually?" God does not do things arbitrarily, therefore the Law of Cause and Effect, the Law of Sowing and Reaping is a universal and inviolable law.

God sent John the Baptist specifically to Israel to prepare their hearts nad souls to receive their true Messiah -- Yeshua ha Mashiach. Then Jesus went to every village, town, and city, preaching the Gospel, doing good, and performing His miracles. He also invited all the Jews to come to Him and be saved.

In spite of all this, a very large number of Jews (particularly the religious leaders) rejected Him. He came unto His own (Israel) and His own received Him not. And that is why unbelieving Israel was blinded for a season. WILFUL UNBELIEF------->SPIRITUAL BLINDNESS.

Could all have believed and been saved? Absolutely. Could all have repented as Nineveh repented at the preaching of Jonah? Absolutely. Sinners can and do understand the SIMPLE Gospel, that Christ died for their sins and rose again for their justification. But all must respond to the Gospel, and all must obey the Gospel.

 

[Waiting on him]

The question is"Why was unbelieving Israel blinded spiritually?"

The answer is God chose it

 

[farouk]

The answer is God chose it

My question is not 'Why?' to God, but, 'What does He reveal in His Word'?

 

[Enoch111]

The answer is God chose it

God chose to make Israel spiritually blind just like that? That is not only bizarre but laughable,since He chose Israel to be His chosen people.

 

[Waiting on him]

God chose to make Israel spiritually blind just like that? That is not only bizarre but laughable,since He chose Israel to be His chosen people.

I always strive to be entertaining.

 

[farouk]

I always strive to be entertaining.

I think that your and Enoch111's humour don't necessarily correspond at a deeper level...

 

[Phoneman777]

Agreed. Also, who are we to refuse to accept a gift from The Creator? I know I accepted His awesome gift...how they call that works is beyond me. But then, most of their apologetic s contain an awful lot of scripture wresting to make their belief fit...and even then, it DOESN'T!

Also, Calvinists aren’t alone in their insistence that “choice” is an act of “works” - Antinomianists subtlely suggest the same.

Fact is, God could point to the exact moment we chose to sin that very first sin, whether by thought, word or act and became lost without hope - and He requires we choose Jesus as both our Substitute Who died to pay the penalty that was ours, and our Sovereign to Whom we by His grace render loving obedience as our “reasonable service”.

Brace yourselves, here come the “we were guilty before we were born” arguments. Bring em on LOL

 

[Phoneman777]

The strong language of Ephesians 2 is more of an indication that it is flawed to deny human depravity.

This is why we need to rely on the grace of God, of which Ephesians 2 speaks most wondrously.

Did you read where it says “the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance”?

Proves two things:

That the depraved are not so filthy as to be beyond the reach of God’s love.

That the love of God is more than enough to both convince the depraved of their filthiness and cleanse all who accept His invitation to be clean.

 

[marks]

Also, Calvinists aren’t alone in their insistence that “choice” is an act of “works” - Antinomianists subtlely suggest the same.

Fact is, God could point to the exact moment we chose to sin that very first sin, whether by thought, word or act and became lost without hope - and He requires we choose Jesus as both our Substitute Who died to pay the penalty that was ours, and our Sovereign to Whom we by His grace render loving obedience as our “reasonable service”.

Brace yourselves, here come the “we were guilty before we were born” arguments. Bring em on LOL

In that Revelation speaks of those whose names do not remain written in the Lamb's book of life from before the foundation of the world, and that those are the ones who will worship the beast, I conclude that other names do stay written in the book from before the foundation of the world.

In that God told Moses that the one who sins will be blotted from His book, and that those who overcome (by faith) will not be blotted out, I conclude that God has a book written of all who would ever live, and that those whose sins are imputed to them are blotted from the book, while those whose sins are removed in Christ are never imputed, and therefore never blotted out.

So then if there are names that are never blotted from the book, then all guilt is held in abeyance while we live and come to faith.

And in coming to faith, we are sealed in the Spirit, and our fore-knowing God has retained our name in His book.

So whether we are guilty under Adam, the Federal Head of Humanity, or guilty under our own sin, the corruption brought by Adam's sin assures our own. But salvation in Jesus completely lifts us out of all that.

Making sense?

Much love!
mark

 

[Dave L]

If people are not totally depraved, they rob God of his glory in salvation. Thinking God saved them because of some foreseen goodness in them.

 

[Waiting on him]

con·ceit
/kənˈsēt/
Learn to pronounce
noun
noun: conceit; plural noun: conceits

1. 1.
   excessive pride in oneself.
   "he was puffed up with conceit"
   synonyms: vanity, narcissism, conceitedness, self-love, self-admiration, self-adulation, self-regard, egotism, egoism, egocentricity, egomania;More
   pride, arrogance, hubris, boastfulness, cockiness, self-importance, immodesty;
   self-satisfaction, smugness, complacency;
   amour propre;
   informalbig-headedness, swollen-headedness, uppishness, uppitiness;
   literaryvainglory
   "Polly's eyes widened at his extraordinary conceit"
   antonyms: modesty, humility