Are You Saved Because You Believe OR Do You Believe Because You Are Saved?

[Dave L]

Only in your fantasies.

People are slaves to sin. They cannot stop being sinners any more than a cat can stop being a cat. It takes a miracle transformation performed by God to turn them into followers of Christ.

 

[Harvest 1874]

ok so your apostolic Pentecostal aka oneness .. what do you call the father the son the holy ghost recall at jesus baptism God spoke this is my beloved son hear ye HIM john 3:16 for God so loved the world HE gave his only SON these 2 scriptures shows 2 separate persons.. then Jesus said when he left he would send the comforter /Holy-ghost / spirit of Truth . when i do the math this shows me 3 persons 3 separate jobs / ministries together the form the Trinity

No I am not an Apostolic Pentecostal, I’m a Bible Student nor do we believe as our Pentecostal friends in the “Oneness doctrine”, we hold to the Arian theology.

See our blog post entitled, “The Great Debate” for more on this.

 

[Taken]

.... we are talking about those who were not accountable for sin.

No. I commented on those who ARE NOT accountable for sin.

Adam and Eve sinned before God gave them that one law.

Adam "DISOBEYED" God.
No mention of "SIN" was Knowledge given Adam.

What Scripture NOTIFIES man Hundreds of years AFTER Adams Death:
IS:
[12] Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

BY one man sin entered into the world...

By WHO, did WHAT enter into the world?

Scripture tells us; BY WHO.
Gen 4:
[1] And Adam knew Eve his wife;

Scripture tells us; WHAT entered the World.
Gen 4:
[1] ...Cain

Scripture tells us;
THE FIRST MENTION OF SIN.

Scripture tells us;
God notified CAIN, "NOT DOING WELL", would result in "SIN".

Gen 4:
[6] And the LORD said unto Cain...

[7] If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door.

Adam was WARNED, to not Eat of a particular TREE.

Adam ATE of that particular TREE.

Adam was punished (banished from the Garden)....for DISOBEYING GOD.

Cain whom Adam brought INTO the World was WARNED, to DO WELL, and NOT DOING WELL would RESULT in something CALLED "SIN".

Cain CHOSE to "NOT DO WELL"...

Cain was punished (banished from his Family)....for DISOBEYING GOD.

Once they they understood they were naked that was wrong. But it not a sin prior.

Out of context. Nakedness of the Flesh was not wrong. Disobedience of the Flesh was wrong. Covering of the FLESH, was Gods WAY of COVERING of WRONGFUL Flesh.

The children of Adam and Eve committed incest, but it was not a sin.

Out of context. There was no such thing as INCEST. There was a beginning of mankind; men and women populating the earth as they were taught to do. Gen 9:7.

....even then those who had no access to Mosaic law didn't sin.

Presumptious on your part.

Sin did not BEGIN for mankind, with disobedience to Mosaic Law.

Abraham was sent out from HIS HOME.
Abraham was notified of his nephew Lot going into the city of Sodom.

Abraham was notified;
The people in Sodom and Gomorrah were committing.....Grievous SIN....(men lying with men)...Disobedience to Gods word.

You presume the men in Sodom and Gomorrah were UNAWARE they were Disobedient to God, committing SIN.
Not true; Gen 18:21

However,
Gen 19:7 clearly reveals Lot spoke to men of the city of Sodom, (called them "HIS BRETHREN"); who wanted Lot to surrender to them, Lots "MEN" guests.

Your presumption and teaching is the men of Sodom, (Lots BRETHREN) DID NOT KNOW (lying WITH MEN) was sin. (Because the Mosaic Law had not yet been written). I disagree.

Abraham PRESUMED....and He ALSO was IN ERROR to PRESUME.

Abraham had been instructed by the Lord to Leave His home and Travel.
While Abraham was Traveling he came to the Land, of Gerar.
Abimelech was king of Gerar.
Abraham withheld a portion of TRUTH from king Abimelech, BECAUSE ...

Abraham ...PRESUMED; that the FEAR of God, was NOT with Abimelech OR in the land of
Gerar; Gen 20:11

King Abimelech himself called out to the Lord...Gen 20:4

God Himself gives notice of WHAT defined SIN...."Being AGAINST God."
Gen 20:6

Nothing has changed...
BEING AGAINST GOD, is SIN.

Not a news revelation...
People are naturally born AGAINST GOD.
They can not BE WITH God, until they can "REASON" there is such a thing "as Thee God".

You may not like it, or believe it....however people ARE NATURALLY BORN IN SIN.

BEFORE the LAW the FIRST relationship, God Established was BETWEEN MAN (Adam) and God.

Then a Relationship between A Man and A Woman.

Then a Relationship between A Husband and A Wife and "their" offspring.

That has NOT changed from the Beginning.
God Establishes Relationships.

Then a Relationship of Brotherhood...Brethren.. All people with OTHER people.

The Introduction of the LAW, "After Genesis";
Foremost Notified the People...
(LAW) A REMINDER;
For man TO FOREMOST Above ALL other things...for man TO KEEP A relationship WITH
God.
(LAW) An INTRODUCTION;
Of Acceptable and Pleasing behaviors BETWEEN men;
(LAW) THE Mosaic LAW;
was a 600+ Teachings FOR MEN; A CODE "OF WHAT Behaviors BETWEEN men, "WAS" Acceptable and pleasing to God; and Beneficial FOR mankind.

Forward...
Fulfillment of the LAW...Finished!
Forward...
Revelation of Salvation available NOW... Finished!

Forward...
Nothing has changed...
Individuals Choosing God First above all things; And the Result thereof.
AND
Individuals NOT Choosing God Above ALL things; And the Result thereof

Glory to God,
Taken

You really need to rethink all this.

Already read and thought about your words that conflict with Scripture, and continue to disagree with your understanding and preaching and suggestions.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Ezra]

No I am not an Apostolic Pentecostal, I’m a Bible Student nor do we believe as our Pentecostal friends in the “Oneness doctrine”, we hold to the Arian theology.

See our blog post entitled, “The Great Debate” for more on this.

modern Arianism advocates that Jesus was a good and wise man, perhaps even a prophet, but certainly not divine.so reject Jesus way truth life Jesus the Resurrection and the life you reject john 3:16 Arianism is an ancient heresy which denies the divinity of Jesus Christ.

yet you profess to be a christian?

 

[CoreIssue]

You really need to Learn the Difference Between Scripture saying "I WAS", and YOUR PREACHING "ARE NOT".

You are QUOTING YOUR Preferred VERSION of Scripture, and THEN PREACHING THE OPPOSITE....

Good grief man, Stop telling me what VERSION of Scripture I must use...

You can't even AGREE with the VERSION of Scripture YOU use!

THE PROBLEM is NOT MY PROBLEM.
IT is NOT ME you are disagreeing with;
IT IS Your own Chosen Version of Scripture;
YOU in your own words, DISAGREE WITH.

THAT ^ is your dancing around!

Glory to God,
Taken

You just said a whole lot of nothing.

Where have I said the opposite of what I posted?

 

[CoreIssue]

No. I commented on those who ARE NOT accountable for sin.



Adam "DISOBEYED" God.
No mention of "SIN" was Knowledge given Adam.

What Scripture NOTIFIES man Hundreds of years AFTER Adams Death:
IS:
[12] Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

BY one man sin entered into the world...

By WHO, did WHAT enter into the world?

Scripture tells us; BY WHO.
Gen 4:
[1] And Adam knew Eve his wife;

Scripture tells us; WHAT entered the World.
Gen 4:
[1] ...Cain

Scripture tells us;
THE FIRST MENTION OF SIN.

Scripture tells us;
God notified CAIN, "NOT DOING WELL", would result in "SIN".

Gen 4:
[6] And the LORD said unto Cain...

[7] If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door.

Adam was WARNED, to not Eat of a particular TREE.

Adam ATE of that particular TREE.

Adam was punished (banished from the Garden)....for DISOBEYING GOD.

Cain whom Adam brought INTO the World was WARNED, to DO WELL, and NOT DOING WELL would RESULT in something CALLED "SIN".

Cain CHOSE to "NOT DO WELL"...

Cain was punished (banished from his Family)....for DISOBEYING GOD.



Out of context. Nakedness of the Flesh was not wrong. Disobedience of the Flesh was wrong. Covering of the FLESH, was Gods WAY of COVERING of WRONGFUL Flesh.



Out of context. There was no such thing as INCEST. There was a beginning of mankind; men and women populating the earth as they were taught to do. Gen 9:7.



Presumptious on your part.

Sin did not BEGIN for mankind, with disobedience to Mosaic Law.

Abraham was sent out from HIS HOME.
Abraham was notified of his nephew Lot going into the city of Sodom.

Abraham was notified;
The people in Sodom and Gomorrah were committing.....Grievous SIN....(men lying with men)...Disobedience to Gods word.

You presume the men in Sodom and Gomorrah were UNAWARE they were Disobedient to God, committing SIN.
Not true; Gen 18:21

However,
Gen 19:7 clearly reveals Lot spoke to men of the city of Sodom, (called them "HIS BRETHREN"); who wanted Lot to surrender to them, Lots "MEN" guests.

Your presumption and teaching is the men of Sodom, (Lots BRETHREN) DID NOT KNOW (lying WITH MEN) was sin. (Because the Mosaic Law had not yet been written). I disagree.

Abraham PRESUMED....and He ALSO was IN ERROR to PRESUME.

Abraham had been instructed by the Lord to Leave His home and Travel.
While Abraham was Traveling he came to the Land, of Gerar.
Abimelech was king of Gerar.
Abraham withheld a portion of TRUTH from king Abimelech, BECAUSE ...

Abraham ...PRESUMED; that the FEAR of God, was NOT with Abimelech OR in the land of
Gerar; Gen 20:11

King Abimelech himself called out to the Lord...Gen 20:4

God Himself gives notice of WHAT defined SIN...."Being AGAINST God."
Gen 20:6

Nothing has changed...
BEING AGAINST GOD, is SIN.

Not a news revelation...
People are naturally born AGAINST GOD.
They can not BE WITH God, until they can "REASON" there is such a thing "as Thee God".

You may not like it, or believe it....however people ARE NATURALLY BORN IN SIN.

BEFORE the LAW the FIRST relationship, God Established was BETWEEN MAN (Adam) and God.

Then a Relationship between A Man and A Woman.

Then a Relationship between A Husband and A Wife and "their" offspring.

That has NOT changed from the Beginning.
God Establishes Relationships.

Then a Relationship of Brotherhood...Brethren.. All people with OTHER people.

The Introduction of the LAW, "After Genesis";
Foremost Notified the People...
(LAW) A REMINDER;
For man TO FOREMOST Above ALL other things...for man TO KEEP A relationship WITH
God.
(LAW) An INTRODUCTION;
Of Acceptable and Pleasing behaviors BETWEEN men;
(LAW) THE Mosaic LAW;
was a 600+ Teachings FOR MEN; A CODE "OF WHAT Behaviors BETWEEN men, "WAS" Acceptable and pleasing to God; and Beneficial FOR mankind.

Forward...
Fulfillment of the LAW...Finished!
Forward...
Revelation of Salvation available NOW... Finished!

Forward...
Nothing has changed...
Individuals Choosing God First above all things; And the Result thereof.
AND
Individuals NOT Choosing God Above ALL things; And the Result thereof

Glory to God,
Taken



Already read and thought about your words that conflict with Scripture, and continue to disagree with your understanding and preaching and suggestions.

Glory to God,
Taken

There are non-so blind as those who will not see.

 

[Taken]

You just said a whole lot of nothing.

Where have I said the opposite of what I posted?

It all tucked in my response that was too difficult for you to comprehend.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

There are non-so blind as those who will not see.

No need to tell me about your blindness, it's obvious. Perhaps you could try Amazon, they sell Braille Bibles.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[CoreIssue]

No need to tell me about your blindness, it's obvious. Perhaps you could try Amazon, they sell Braille Bibles.

Glory to God,
Taken

Time to end this conversation. You refuse to see the problems the KJV thereby distort what the Bible teaches.

The real issue here is the KJV. You elevated it to somethine it is not.

 

[prism]

Scripture is speaking of the signs that Christ did, and saying that they were written that we might believe. But Scripture elsewhere in John 6:44 states:
"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."

I used to take that verse as only the elect will be drawn. Now I take it to mean Jesus is telling them 'the only way to the Son (and thus Life) is by the Father drawing them. IOW, not by their own ingenuity, religious status and privilege, keen intellect etc.. This does not necessitate only drawing the 'elect'. I believe those most convicted of their sin (as the Holy Spirit convicts Jn 16:8-9) will more easily respond to that drawing to Christ.
Nice post of yours btw.

 

[prism]

But they must believe (be saved according to Jesus) before they can do anything stemming from faith. Even "choosing to believe" is a result of believing by grace, or they would not choose to believe, as unnecessary as it is, since they already believe.

Yes, they must believe they are truly sinful before they would respond to their true need for saving. Then they must believe the revelation of Jesus Christ found in the Gospel to place their faith in that Person...in order that they may be saved.

 

[CoreIssue]

I used to take that verse as only the elect will be drawn. Now I it to mean Jesus is telling them 'the only way to the Son (and thus Life) is by the Father drawing them. IOW, not by their own ingenuity, religious status and privilege, keen intellect etc.. This does not necessitate only drawing the 'elect'. I believe those most convicted of their sin (as the Holy Spirit convicts Jn 16:8-9) will more easily respond to that drawing to Christ.
Nice post of yours btw.

Think of it this way. The Bible talks about those seeking God.

They know there is a God. They want to find God. But they don't know how.

So God draws them, opens a path for them, guides them,etc.

God knows who they are before they do.

When they come to Christ he presents him to the father who gives them to the son.

Jesus then gives them the Holy Spirit to be born again.

As Romans 8 puts it, God foreknew who would love him and predestined them all the way to glorification.

Without the guidance of the Holy Spirit everyone is a lost puppy with no hope of finding God.

Thank you also regarding rewards. At first there was little knowledge of God so few rewards could be earned. As God gave us increased knowledge the amount rewards increased.

It is all interrelated and interdependent.

God wants everyone to be elect. But most say no.

 

[Taken]

Time to end this conversation.

Okay.

You refuse to see the problems the KJV thereby distort what the Bible teaches.

Diversion. I have not mentioned the KJV.

The real issue here is the KJV.

No. You quoted your preferred version then disagreed with it.

You elevated it to somethine it is not.

I disagreed with you at the start and still at the ending of this conversation.

Buh bye.

Taken

 

[prism]

Think of it this way. The Bible talks about those seeking God.

They know there is a God. They want to find God. But they don't know how.

So God draws them, opens a path for them, guides them,etc.

God knows who they are before they do.

When they come to Christ he presents him to the father who gives them to the son.

Jesus then gives them the Holy Spirit to be born again.

As Romans 8 puts it, God foreknew who would love him and predestined them all the way to glorification.

Without the guidance of the Holy Spirit everyone is a lost puppy with no hope of finding God.

Thank you also regarding rewards. At first there was little knowledge of God so few rewards could be earned. As God gave us increased knowledge the amount rewards increased.

It is all interrelated and interdependent.

God wants everyone to be elect. But most say no.

The problem here is that there is none that seek after God (Romans 3:11)). Often what we call seeking is actually 'running from' God by establishing our own religions and righteousness.

 

[justbyfaith]

Yup.....and Peter was Satan....Matthew 16:23

People who undermine God's word the way you just did will not be well-received of the Lord...for He has magnified His word above all His name, Psalms 138:2; and also, His word is the means that He has chosen to bring salvation to the world, Romans 10:17.

If you undermine the means by which the Lord sends His salvation, then you are potentially keeping people out of His kingdom...and the Lord is a just and Omnipotent judge.

 

[justbyfaith]

The real issue here is the KJV. You elevated it to somethine it is not.

The kjv is inspired and inerrant.

 

[CoreIssue]

The kjv is inspired and inerrant.

Replacing Passover was Easter is an example of one error in the KJV.

 

[justbyfaith]

Replacing Passover was Easter is an example of one error in the KJV.

It's no error...the devil hates the idea of Easter because the resurrection is what defeated him...so he is putting up a huge fight to try to discredit that rendition in the kjv...but we have been through this...Easter was widely celebrated in the church by the end of the 2nd Century...it is therefore very plausible that the disciples were celebrating the resurrection of Jesus as a holiday by the time that Acts 12:4 rolled around.

Also, Easter is generally referred to as pascha in the Greek and/or Latin languages...and therefore to translate pascha in the Greek texts as Easter is not out of the ordinary and neither is it a mistranslation.

 

[CoreIssue]

It's no error...the devil hates the idea of Easter because the resurrection is what defeated him...so he is putting up a huge fight to try to discredit that rendition in the kjv...but we have been through this...Easter was widely celebrated in the church by the end of the 2nd Century...it is therefore very plausible that the disciples were celebrating the resurrection of Jesus as a holiday by the time that Acts of the Apostles 12:4 rolled around.

Also, Easter is generally referred to as pascha in the Greek and/or Latin languages...and therefore to translate pascha in the Greek texts as Easter is not out of the ordinary and neither is it a mistranslation.

Does not change the fact it is wrong.

Jews celebrate Passover, not Easter.

 

[justbyfaith]

Christians celebrate Easter...the book of Acts is the account of the early church.

I got my facts from Wikipedia, which is a credible source afaic.